BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

Martina1991

Martina1991 wrote: »

Those barriers are part of life. Why do they have to be in our schools with standardised education.

Are you saying tough sh!t to anyone who wants to succeed but has limited resources?

There's a big difference between being resourceful in a rural school and having everything you need at arms reach.

There's only 1- repeat- ONE- question to answer in this thread- I"s BT Young Scientist a Fraud? - that's the thread title of THIS thread.

Like i've said already, I don't agree with the approach of the thread title and a lot of the unsubstantiated bile that's been thrown at this years winner.

Point out to me where i said "tough ****" to anyone? I've stated fact- less resources, less education means less chances in life- that's FACT. I didn't provide a value judgement to that- you did.

TheAnalyst_

https://www.rte.ie/player/nl/show/the-late-late-show-68/10826425/?ap=1
8:58 in he essentially admits there was some chicanery at play.

Martina1991

Deleted User wrote:

There's only 1- repeat- ONE- question to answer in this thread- I"s BT Young Scientist a Fraud? - that's the thread title of THIS thread.

Deleted User wrote:

Like i've said already, I don't agree with the approach of the thread title and a lot of the unsubstantiated bile that's been thrown at this years winner.

So your issue is with the title rather than the content. The thread has become a discussion about the fairness of the BTYSOTY as a competition.

I asked a question. I didn't quote you saying anything.

Fann Linn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's only 1- repeat- ONE- question to answer in this thread- I"s BT Young Scientist a Fraud? - that's the thread title of THIS thread.

Like i've said already, I don't agree with the approach of the thread title and a lot of the unsubstantiated bile that's been thrown at this years winner.

Point out to me where i said "tough ****" to anyone? I've stated fact- less resources, less education means less chances in life- that's FACT. I didn't provide a value judgement to that- you did.

There's only 1 repeat ONE question to answer in this thread as far as I'm concerned, and that is how much of this years BTYS competition winning entry was influenced by the lads mother?

Serious attempts on here to derail this thread by some.

TheAnalyst_

To answer the thread title, yes he is a fraud. 
This is the dictionary definition of a fraud.
"[font=arial, sans-serif]a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.[/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif]"mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds"[/font]
synonyms: impostor, fake, sham, pretender, hoodwinker, masquerader, charlatan, quack, mountebank; More""




[font=arial, sans-serif]Looking at this rehearsed responses from the late late there is clear intention to deceive. He jumps into the grandfather story as how he got the idea for his work. Bull****. [/font]

TheAnalyst_

To answer the thread title, yes he is a fraud. 
synonyms: impostor, fake, sham, pretender, hoodwinker, masquerader, charlatan, quack, mountebank; More""




[font=arial, sans-serif]Looking at this rehearsed responses from the late late there is clear intention to deceive. He jumps into the grandfather story as how he got the idea for his work. Bull****. [/font]
This is the dictionary definition of a fraud.
"[font=arial, sans-serif]a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.[/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif]"mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds"[/font]

Martina1991

Martina1991 wrote: »

So your issue is with the title rather than the content. The thread has become a discussion about the fairness of the BTYSOTY as a competition.

I asked a question. I didn't quote you saying anything.

I don't care what the thread has become- the OP is clearly alluding to the fact that fraud has taken place.

TheAnalyst_

Deleted User wrote: »

Martina1991 wrote: »

So your issue is with the title rather than the content. The thread has become a discussion about the fairness of the  BTYSOTY as a competition.

I asked a question. I didn't quote you saying anything.

I don't care what the thread has become- the OP is clearly alluding to the fact that fraud has taken place.

Wrong. You are deliberately using a different definition for fraud when its clear the OP is talking about the person as a character and not an act.

TheAnalyst_

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

To answer the thread title, yes he is a fraud. 
synonyms: impostor, fake, sham, pretender, hoodwinker, masquerader, charlatan, quack, mountebank; More""




[font=arial, sans-serif]Looking at this rehearsed responses from the late late there is clear intention to deceive. He jumps into the grandfather story as how he got the idea for his work. Bull****. [/font]
This is the dictionary definition of a fraud.
"[font=arial, sans-serif]a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.[/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif]"mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds"[/font]

Fair enough. Your opinion. I disagree.

Would you like to back that up with fact (in the spirit of the Young Scientist Exhibition)

TheAnalyst_

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Wrong. You are deliberately using a different definition for fraud when its clear the OP is talking about the person as a character and not an act.

Did you ask the OP and did they respond with that reply? it's not clear to me:)

Marty Bird

Marty Bird wrote: »

I’m not saying the lad didn’t do the work but what I find strange is that his mother supervised another student to carry out a study on a wild flower to fight MRSA 11 years ago, he is using plants found in the back garden to do the same. If it was unique then great but this has been done with similar plants and too not mention the mother who is highly regarded in this field is also strange. Do I think he cheated ? I honestly don’t know looks more a case of it’s not what you know but who you know.

Plenty this was a reply from me earlier on in this thread.

Roger Hassenforder

kaymin wrote: »

What about students with higher IQs - shouldn't that be factored in. Or students with greater initiative - surely that's unfair to the layabouts.

Ah heor, Were not making everyone run 100m at the same speed, or putting kids in wheelchairs against the other kids.
The fast kid wins the race. And rightly so. No medals for entering. But you'd have the kid whose dad painted the finish line 30m closer wins, or the kid whose mom dropped him off at the finish winning.

If every kid starts with a rock, one of them will figure out how to make it into an arrowhead. A layabout will still have a rock.

If only equipment found in a school was allowed it would encourage more innovation, adaption, ingenuity. Kids have to rely on their wits and intellect. Dont lose sight of the fact that this is a competition for kids.
All the current system does is allow kids and their mothers pull in resources they have access to. The best resources gatherer wins.

kaymin

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/player/nl/show/the-late-late-show-68/10826425/?ap=1
8:58 in he essentially admits there was some chicanery at play.

I think you're grasping at straws.

cookie1977

This illustrates my issue with the BTYSTE as it is today:

TheAnalyst_

kaymin wrote: »

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/player/nl/show/the-late-late-show-68/10826425/?ap=1
8:58 in he essentially admits there was some chicanery at play.

I think you're grasping at straws.

Are you serious? His answer is beyond bizarre. It only makes sense knowing what we know now. 
He was asked what won it for him. And he replies that he can't tell and that if he did it would skew the results.

kaymin

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ah heor, Were not making everyone run 100m at the same speed, or putting kids in wheelchairs against the other kids.
The fast kid wins the race. And rightly so. No medals for entering. But you'd have the kid whose dad painted the finish line 30m closer wins, or the kid whose mom dropped him off at the finish winning.

If every kid starts with a rock, one of them will figure out how to make it into an arrowhead. A layabout will still have a rock.

If only equipment found in a school was allowed it would encourage more innovation, adaption, ingenuity. Kids have to rely on their wits and intellect. Dont lose sight of the fact that this is a competition for kids.
All the current system does is allow kids and their mothers pull in resources they have access to. The best resources gatherer wins.

Some schools are better equipped than others - how will you cope with this? What you seeking is illogical and impractical.

kaymin

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Are you serious? His answer is beyond bizarre. It only makes sense knowing what we know now.
He was asked what won it for him. And he replies that he can't tell and that if he did it would skew the results.

For all i know he could be referring to his IQ of a 180

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Some schools are better equipped than others - how will you cope with this? What you seeking is illogical and impractical.

And if the schools that are already better equipped are also better connected because of better educated parents and better teachers then this will amplify the difference even further.

"we can not do everything, therefore we should not do anything"

Marty Bird

Marty Bird wrote: »

Plenty this was a reply from me earlier on in this thread.

Then why did you ask the question in this thread "BT Young Scientist a Fraud?" in such a provocative manner and leave the OP post you did, if you weren't prepared to get off the fence and answer your own question?

I've huge issue with this, not least because the whole topic here is around scientific discovery.

I don't know what your qualifications are, but many learned people have judged this exhibition. I'm not saying their appraisal process couldn't be improved or is flawed- maybe it could and maybe it is. I don't know what that process is, but I know that this exhibition has been around a very long time, so there's some degree of credibility to it.

Certainly, if there's something 'rotten' in the system, then yes, absolutely, change it.

But to infer that this years Young Scientist winner is a fraud -which is what you have done by focusing totally and exclusively on the winner in your opening post- I don't like what you did there. I think that's very unfair.

You have brought the process of the YS to bear, on the shoulders of this years winner. That's wrong. And that's my issue here.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

And if the schools that are already better equipped are also better connected because of better educated parents and better teachers then this will amplify the difference even further.

Not necessarily. Rural schools with a handful of leaving cert students will never have the same resources as the larger schools, no matter the connections.

Roger Hassenforder

kaymin wrote: »

I think you're grasping at straws.

S'all right.
They're his own straws!

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Not necessarily. Rural schools with a handful of leaving cert students will never have the same resources as the larger schools, no matter the connections.

Vast majority of second level schools have over 200 students:
https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Key-Statistics/Key-Statistics-2016-2017.pdf



In your view: "we can not do everything, therefore we should not do anything"

Sam Quentin

That's what Mums do..
Some FURIOUSLY, VIGOROUSLY, OVER THE TOP-ERLY etc etc
We all know them Mums, the ones that block/stop traffic near the school gates, and not budging or acknowledging any of the anger aimed through her car window towards her blank poker face.
As she waits for little Mary or Johnny to joyfully jump onboard, oblivious to their Mums FATUATION-NESS towards them lmao :P

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Vast majority of second level schools have over 200 students:
https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Key-Statistics/Key-Statistics-2016-2017.pdf



In your view: "we can not do everything, therefore we should not do anything"

The point is it will never be a level playing field for all students. So I question why there should be arbitrary restrictions which limit what students can achieve.

Roger Hassenforder

kaymin wrote: »

Some schools are better equipped than others - how will you cope with this? What you seeking is illogical and impractical.

"Illogical and impractical"
How so?

Theres a science/chemistry/biology/physics syllabus
Schools have some equipment. Some better han others. But no school has Cat 2 containment, HPLC, GCMS, PCR etc. Tbeyre not required for syllabus, so theyre banned.
Cop yourself on, i didnt say equipment has to be in all schools. (Be great, but...)
Its simple.

So when a kid rocks up with his 40yr old Zeiss, with a missing x30 and shows you his study on amoeba riding each other , would you not have more respect for her than the kid flogging an old study from one of moms postgraduate students from the local third level.
I know who the better scientist is...

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

The point is it will never be a level playing field for all students. So I question why there should be arbitrary restrictions which limit what students can achieve.

Yes but it COULD be better then it is now.

evolving_doors

kaymin wrote: »

So there's nothing massively wrong with what he did other than he was a little arrogant afterwards. Everything else you complain about (prize money, media attention, the act of winning) is not within his control. Seems like the ire on this thread is misplaced.

Why did the other students not stand a chance if what he did is a relatively straightforward exercise - there's something flawed in your logic.

Did you not think it strange that his mother wasn't acknowledged in the 'academic' sense? (Not just 'I'd like to thank my mother and father for their moral support).
I think what is raising eyebrows is the omission of something which seems very relevant to the topic that won.
Or was it just coincidence that the area of research was the same as the mother's?


Also, and maybe a more general question for all BTYS students who link in with colleges; was the lab work done after hours... or were people doing his experiments for him through a recognised 3rd level-2nd level initiative... or were staff running experiments at the behest of someone more senior telling them to do so. Meanwhile was state funded research put on hold.

I'd wouldn't accuse him of cheating though. That's a bit harsh without knowing all the facts. It's just the suggestion of subterfuge that raises curiosity.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Yes but it COULD be better then it is now.

Better? You could limit resources which limit what some students can achieve - I wouldn't consider this better.

kaymin

evolving_doors wrote: »

Did you not think it strange that his mother wasn't acknowledged in the 'academic' sense? (Not just 'I'd like to thank my mother and father for their moral support).
I think what is raising eyebrows is the omission of something which seems very relevant to the topic that won.
Or was it just coincidence that the area of research was the same as the mother's?


Also, and maybe a more general question for all BTYS students who link in with colleges; was the lab work done after hours... or were people doing his experiments for him through a recognised 3rd level-2nd level initiative... or were staff running experiments at the behest of someone more senior telling them to do so. Meanwhile was state funded research put on hold.

I'd wouldn't accuse him of cheating though. That's a bit harsh without knowing all the facts. It's just the suggestion of subterfuge that raises curiosity.

Has anyone actually looked at his project acknowledgements? If his mother is not referenced then I agree that is suspicious. If he didn't complete the experiments himself then that's a big issue also. Surely the judges would have assessed all of this?

Martina1991

kaymin wrote:

Not necessarily. Rural schools with a handful of leaving cert students will never have the same resources as the larger schools, no matter the connections.

All secondary schools have to teach the same junior and leaving cert syllabus. Every school is held to the same standard of education. That's up to the teachers.