BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

kaymin

Martina1991 wrote: »

All secondary schools have to teach the same junior and leaving cert syllabus. Every school is held to the same standard of education. That's up to the teachers.

It's simply not true that every school has the same amount / standard of equipment.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Better? You could limit resources which limit what some students can achieve - I wouldn't consider this better.

Glass half full glass half empty. The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many it seems with you anyway.

Roger Hassenforder

kaymin wrote: »

It's simply not true that every school has the same amount / standard of equipment.

no one is saying they are/have.
the point is completely going over your head!

this is a simple concept, worth repeating.

the science subjects have a set syllabus.
To complete the syllabus, schools must have equipment.
This equipment is set out, teachers look at what they have and decide what experiments they can demonstrate.
For example, some schools might have individual prisms and lenses for optics, some schools might have only one for the teacher to demonstrate. But prisms and lenses are found in schools.

Schools dont need ICPOES to do the syllabus.
or PCR sequencers.
or HPLC
or electron microscopes.
or electron colliders
etc.

kaymin

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

no one is saying they are/have.
the point is completely going over your head!

this is a simple concept, worth repeating.

the science subjects have a set syllabus.
To complete the syllabus, schools must have equipment.
This equipment is set out, teachers look at what they have and decide what experiments they can demonstrate.
For example, some schools might have individual prisms and lenses for optics, some schools might have only one for the teacher to demonstrate. But prisms and lenses are found in schools.

Schools dont need ICPOES to do the syllabus.
or PCR sequencers.
or HPLC
or electron microscopes.
or electron colliders
etc.

Is the BTYS competition restricted to the school syllabus or something? Why is this even relevant.

cookie1977

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

no one is saying they are/have.
the point is completely going over your head!

this is a simple concept, worth repeating.

the science subjects have a set syllabus.
To complete the syllabus, schools must have equipment.
This equipment is set out, teachers look at what they have and decide what experiments they can demonstrate.
For example, some schools might have individual prisms and lenses for optics, some schools might have only one for the teacher to demonstrate. But prisms and lenses are found in schools.

Schools dont need ICPOES to do the syllabus.
or PCR sequencers.
or HPLC
or electron microscopes.
or electron colliders
etc.

As someone on Twitter said: "equipment not reasonably expected to be found in a secondary school is banned"

Roger Hassenforder

kaymin wrote: »

Is the BTYS competition restricted to the school syllabus or something? Why is this even relevant.

its for kids
in school.
to encourage STEM take up.

evolving_doors

cookie1977 wrote: »

As someone on Twitter said: "equipment not reasonably expected to be found in a secondary school is banned"

That was someone on Twitter.
Is that in the btys rules?

The Rape of Lucretia

cookie1977 wrote: »

Glass half full glass half empty.

I see it more as glass incorrectly selected for the volume of liquid involved.

cookie1977

evolving_doors wrote: »

That was someone on Twitter.
Is that in the btys rules?

No.

Roger Hassenforder

evolving_doors wrote: »

That was someone on Twitter.
Is that in the btys rules?

its on your wans (BT PR) twitter
it looks like a request after this kerfuffle to change the rules to: "equipment not normally found in schools should be banned".


rather than the current anything goes

evolving_doors

kaymin wrote: »

Has anyone actually looked at his project acknowledgements? If his mother is not referenced then I agree that is suspicious. If he didn't complete the experiments himself then that's a big issue also. Surely the judges would have assessed all of this?

Its the public acknowledgements (or lack thereof )which are are being questioned.

If he did complete the experiments himself then that might also be an issue! Working with MRSA!!

Going back to how the judges assess. From reading a previous post it's done on face value there and then through questioning the student. I'll have to double check.

ligertigon

As someone who has guided students in the BTYS for the past 15 years,
Firstly, Its a great and positive experience for all of them.

A little logic next.
Whilst I 'helped' students and guided them, there is nothing stopping a teacher doing more than 'helping' them. In fact, doing it for them, and grooming them in their responses and answers is perfectly possible, not to mention giving them the idea in the first place.

Can/does this happen?
Of course it can. It's prestigious for the school, can affect incoming numbers, not to mention possibly a sub teacher given hours exclusively for the BTYS and being under pressure to get a full time job etc


Incidentally, none of my students ever won anything, except their heads held high leaving.

r93kaey5p2izun

kaymin wrote: »

Better? You could limit resources which limit what some students can achieve - I wouldn't consider this better.

I suppose that depends on what you see as the main purpose of the competition. If you see the aim as being to drive and recognise significant scientific breakthroughs then fair enough. If you see the aim as being to encourage scientific inquiry, develop scientific investigation skills, and promote STEM as an interesting and rewarding field among young people, then I think that changes what would be seen as "better". It's a matter of perspective.

byhookorbycrook

UCC offers outreach to quite a number of secondary schools, many in disadvantaged areas.

freshpopcorn

Closed for review!

Boom_Bap

Thread Re-opened.

This thread was started off with the word 'fraud' being used. As this comes with a big can o' worms with it, I think that we should just allude to something fishy going on rather than making bold claims.

I'd like for the thread to continue in this vein, no allegations as such and to have a healthy discussion on the BT Young Scientist award.

Cool.

deezell

Boom_Bap wrote: »

.... As this comes with a big can o' worms with it, I think that we should just allude to something fishy going on rather than making bold claims...

Who's first to take the bait?

Boom_Bap

deezell wrote: »

Who's first to take the bait?

are you codding me?

YFlyer

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

UCC offers outreach to quite a number of secondary schools, many in disadvantaged areas.

What does that mean? Offer pupils from disadvantage areas college places with less leaving cert points?

jmayo

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Thread Re-opened.

This thread was started off with the word 'fraud' being used. As this comes with a big can o' worms with it, I think that we should just allude to something fishy going on rather than making bold claims.

I'd like for the thread to continue in this vein, no allegations as such and to have a healthy discussion on the BT Young Scientist award.

Cool.

Ahh Boom_Bap the thread is null and void if we don't discuss the heart of the matter, the "allegation" that the lad that won did almost the exact same research as that carried out by a post grad student under his mothers supervision a decade before ?

And that is an allegation of something very fishy alright.

Now you can label it something else, but it boils down to fact that winner is not in anyway original or groundbreaking no matter what the primary judge in the category would claim.
Worse still some of the original research was carried out under the auspices of the winner's mammy.

BTW it smells worse than when the trawlers arrive into Killbegs.

Boom_Bap

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh Boom_Bap the thread is null and void if we don't discuss the heart of the matter, the "allegation" that the lad that won did almost the exact same research as that carried out by a post grad student under his mothers supervision a decade before ?

And that is an allegation of something very fishy alright.

Now you can label it something else, but it boils down to fact that winner is not in anyway original or groundbreaking no matter what the primary judge in the category would claim.

BTW it smells worse than when the trawlers arrive into Killbegs.

Lets just make a concerted effort not to make definitive claims.
This thread has evolved quite a bit into a general discussion on the awards, so no harm in leaving it roll as long as is it stays out of the territory that could get us in trouble

NeitherJohn

YFlyer wrote: »

What does that mean? Offer pupils from disadvantage areas college places with less leaving cert points?

They have a scheme called Spectroscopy in a Suitcase. It's an RSC initiative where some infrared and ultraviolet-visible spectrometers are brought to each school for one day and experiments are done by UCC staff and students with the schoolchildren. Some CSI-themed experiments essentially.

The kit is taken back to UCC at the days end.

They also do the Salters Chemistry Festival where teams of school children are brought in for an experiment based competition. Everyone does the same experiments. Level playing field.

https://www.ucc.ie/en/chemistry/outreach/sias/

They've already seen big increases in the number of students signing up for Chemical Sciences in the CAO since the course started.

YFlyer

NeitherJohn wrote: »

They have a scheme called Spectroscopy in a Suitcase. It's an RSC initiative where some infrared and ultraviolet-visible spectrometers are brought to each school for one day and experiments are done by UCC staff and students with the schoolchildren. Some CSI-themed experiments essentially.

The kit is taken back to UCC at the days end.

They also do the Salters Chemistry Festival where teams of school children are brought in for an experiment based competition. Everyone does the same experiments. Level playing field.

https://www.ucc.ie/en/chemistry/outreach/sias/

They've already seen big increases in the number of students signing up for Chemical Sciences in the CAO since the course started.

Its NMR spectroscopy now baby...:)

NeitherJohn

YFlyer wrote: »

Its NMR spectroscopy now baby...:)

Can't exactly cart a 600 MHz NMR spectrometer to the local secondary though:D

Fann Linn

If this lads project goes into the Euro version will the same questions which have arisen already regarding his mothers alleged influence still go unchallenged by the judges?

Lackey

evolving_doors wrote: »

That was someone on Twitter.
Is that in the btys rules?

Someone posted this on Twitter:

EUCYS rules:

Article 16
Where, in the opinion of the Jury, contestants:
a) are estimated to have received undue assistance from experts;
b) have benefited from undue privileged access to resources;
c) have clearly plagiarised ideas from others without indicating the source; d) are withholding information about the project or themselves;
e) have not acknowledged the use of certain software.
they will be excluded from the competition

cookie1977

Lackey wrote: »

Someone posted this on Twitter:

EUCYS rules:

Article 16
Where, in the opinion of the Jury, contestants:
a) are estimated to have received undue assistance from experts;
b) have benefited from undue privileged access to resources;
c) have clearly plagiarised ideas from others without indicating the source; d) are withholding information about the project or themselves;
e) have not acknowledged the use of certain software.
they will be excluded from the competition

These rules should also be part of BTYSTE. If it's good enough for a competition that BTYSTE sends there best students to then it should be good enough for them too.

YFlyer

NeitherJohn wrote: »

Can't exactly cart a 600 MHz NMR spectrometer to the local secondary though:D

At UL we only recently received a 400 MHz solid state NMR spectrometer. Still waiting for a pyrolysis gc-ms

Nonoperational

Did this competition myself many moons ago. Great Craic. Had a family member in the area but thought of the idea completely by myself. Received some advice on how best to plan it and used a 3rd level lab for the experiment along with 2 classmates.

Went in twice a week for a month to do the experiment and read the results. Never had anyone do anything only give me guidance and advice. Won a small prize. The family connection definitely put the idea in my head and made it easier to get access to the lab, but the idea and all the methodology was my own. Was a great experience, really stood to me.

Maybe the guy is blue in the face from hearing about natural antibiotics at the dinner table and felt he could do something better.

jmayo

Nonoperational wrote: »

Did this competition myself many moons ago. Great Craic. Had a family member in the area but thought of the idea completely by myself. Received some advice on how best to plan it and used a 3rd level lab for the experiment along with 2 classmates.

Went in twice a week for a month to do the experiment and read the results. Never had anyone do anything only give me guidance and advice. Won a small prize. The family connection definitely put the idea in my head and made it easier to get access to the lab, but the idea and all the methodology was my own. Was a great experience, really stood to me.

Maybe the guy is blue in the face from hearing about natural antibiotics at the dinner table and felt he could do something better.

It is one thing to be inspired by someone as in your case, but it is quiet another thing to almost mimic their work.

Looking at it the project is in no way as claimed a landmark groundbreaking project and is just treading over already trodden ground and even worse in the footsteps of his mam.

During the course of your experiment would you reckon you would have been given uncontrolled access to a pathogen if your experiment warranted it ?

Somehow I doubt a third level institution would let a 15 year old student (no matter who they are) uncontrolled access to a pathogen, as someone's ass would be in a slink if anything happened due to that access.

What really angers me about this how this project was passed off, the resources used, the background that was kept out of the limelight and the way those questioning the distinct odour linked to the whole affair are now being challenged.

The really sad thing is this affects other participants who worked their asses off, didn't have all the relevant connections and did something truly original.
And this now also calls into question the achievements of past winners.