BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

treade1

MRSA is a Biosafety Level 2 organism. Staff working with it should be fully trained and work should be confined to a Biological Safety Cabinet.
I'd love to see the Risk Assessment which allowed a 15 year old, 2nd level student, to work with this strain. In most university labs, students would not be let near a BSL 2 strain until at least the final year of their honors degree.

In fairness to the young lad I wouldn't think he had much say in the matter. He would have had to follow Mammy's orders. And if someone else had been selected as the winner the chances are that they too had access to a university lab through family or friends.

One thing I would like to know is if all these privileged Young Scientists contestants who gain access to University Labs, through family and friends, use funds which are supposed to be ear marked for undergraduate students or postgraduate students already attending these universities?

It was suggested that the winner spent 2 years working on the project. Anyone familiar with the costs associated with running a university lab will realize that the costs associated with conducting many of these projects can quickly run into thousands of euros.

JMNolan

treade1 wrote: »

MRSA is a Biosafety Level 2 organism. Staff working with it should be fully trained and work should be confined to a Biological Safety Cabinet.
I'd love to see the Risk Assessment which allowed a 15 year old, 2nd level student, to work with this strain. In most university labs, students would not be let near a BSL 2 strain until at least the final year of their honors degree.

In fairness to the young lad I wouldn't think he had much say in the matter. He would have had to follow Mammy's orders. And if someone else had been selected as the winner the chances are that they too had access to a university lab through family or friends.

One thing I would like to know is if all these privileged Young Scientists contestants who gain access to University Labs, through family and friends, use funds which are supposed to be ear marked for undergraduate students or postgraduate students already attending these universities?

It was suggested that the winner spent 2 years working on the project. Anyone familiar with the costs associated with running a university lab will realize that the costs associated with conducting many of these projects can quickly run into thousands of euros.

I can't really counter this so I'll just call you a begrudger, that should cover it.

joe40

kaymin wrote: »

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Your post is shocking on many levels.
If he had any sense he would have kept his head down knowing what had just happened although his reply to one question on the late late showed some awareness.
No my real ire is directed towards his mother.
It is a straightforward exercise if you have a mother who has already devised and published an experiment and has full acesss to university labs and restricted pathogens.

I'm really not seeing the problem - a good science teacher could provide equally good guidance. Many students access third level resources - some posters to this thread mentioned that they had done it when they had participated in the YS. Are you seriously recommending limiting the resources students should have available to them? Will they be able to use google? Where do you stop? What you and many others seem to be recommending is absurd.

The lads behaviour is irrelevant - judge the project on its merits.

Sorry for posting an comment from a few pages back but I think it at the crux of this debate. I am a science teacher, and I would like to think I am reasonably good. However there is no way I could give the same help on this project as his Mother would have been able to give. Not a chance.
If a teacher completed a Phd and then had a student of theirs enter the BTYS using a project very similar to his/her Phd research, that should raise eyebrows if not alarm bells. Especially if the project went on to win. Transparency, fairness and openness are important

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

kaymin

joe40 wrote: »

Sorry for posting an comment from a few pages back but I think it at the crux of this debate. I am a science teacher, and I would like to think I am reasonably good. However there is no way I could give the same help on this project as his Mother would have been able to give. Not a chance.
If a teacher completed a Phd and then had a student of theirs enter the BTYS using a project very similar to his/her Phd research, that should raise eyebrows if not alarm bells. Especially if the project went on to win. Transparency, fairness and openness are important

Obviously in this instance a science teacher couldn't match the potential guidance on offer given its his mother's specialism - my comment is made more generally though - a good science teacher will offer advantages to his / her students over students with mediocre teachers.

I think the key issue is the extent to which the mother's input and past work has been formally acknowledged in the project - if this has been adequately done then its down to the judges to properly judge what is presented before them. I haven't seen any information provided in this thread about this matter - there's a lot of accusations and assumptions being made though.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Obviously in this instance a science teacher couldn't match the potential guidance on offer given its his mother's specialism - my comment is made more generally though - a good science teacher will offer advantages to his / her students over students with mediocre teachers.

I think the key issue is the extent to which the mother's input and past work has been formally acknowledged in the project - if this has been adequately done then its down to the judges to properly judge what is presented before them. I haven't seen any information provided in this thread about this matter - there's a lot of accusations and assumptions being made though.

The key issue for me is the question: is there any opportunity for a secondary school teacher and a student to win or does it require significant third party resources?

At present I don't believe there is. So where is the fairness, transparency and opportunities in the exhibition?

evolving_doors

Lackey wrote: »

Someone posted this on Twitter:

EUCYS rules:

Article 16
Where, in the opinion of the Jury, contestants:
a) are estimated to have received undue assistance from experts;
b) have benefited from undue privileged access to resources;
c) have clearly plagiarised ideas from others without indicating the source; d) are withholding information about the project or themselves;
e) have not acknowledged the use of certain software.
they will be excluded from the competition

Those criteria were different to the Twitter reference saying they weren't allowed help from colleges.

Also ABCD are subjective. It's taken on face value at the time.

Did he receive undue influence? We don't know. Getting help from colleges is fine. The extent and ed act nature of which we just don't know.

B. We don't know i the mum paved the way in the lab. Maybe he asked her for advice and she said.. 'shur ring in to the college department yourself and ask'. Is it a privilege to have information! Should he not pursue something just because someone showed him how to carry out an experiment or gave info or pointed out research to read.

C has he indicated sources in his project? We don't know. Remember his sources are in his project.... not by what he credits after the competition and he's giving an interview to the media in an elated state.

D) we don't know. Unless you actually read over the project. What he says after is immaterial.

E) we don't know.

Tl:Dr the results are based on material and interview DURING the competition. Not on interviews and supposition after.

Mr.Micro

jmayo wrote: »

It is one thing to be inspired by someone as in your case, but it is quiet another thing to almost mimic their work.

Looking at it the project is in no way as claimed a landmark groundbreaking project and is just treading over already trodden ground and even worse in the footsteps of his mam.

During the course of your experiment would you reckon you would have been given uncontrolled access to a pathogen if your experiment warranted it ?

Somehow I doubt a third level institution would let a 15 year old student (no matter who they are) uncontrolled access to a pathogen, as someone's ass would be in a slink if anything happened due to that access.

What really angers me about this how this project was passed off, the resources used, the background that was kept out of the limelight and the way those questioning the distinct odour linked to the whole affair are now being challenged.

The really sad thing is this affects other participants who worked their asses off, didn't have all the relevant connections and did something truly original.
And this now also calls into question the achievements of past winners.

It says a lot for the lack of integrity of the whole Young Scientist set up and the judging etc. It's Ireland after all, why should we be surprised. It destroys the initiative and enthusiasm of young people from entering, when the perception is its all fixed. Not only that, one does not have a chance either, without top equipment. The whole idea is inventiveness at school level with the normal equipment that any student can have access to. Disgusting.

evolving_doors

cookie1977 wrote: »

The key issue for me is the question: is there any opportunity for a secondary school teacher and a student to win or does it require significant third party resources?

At present I don't believe there is. So where is the fairness, transparency and opportunities in the exhibition?

If you want to win, get help wherever you can.

cookie1977

evolving_doors wrote: »

If you want to win, get help wherever you can.

Then I'm disappointed with the idea that it's win at all costs

Mr.Micro

evolving_doors wrote: »

If you want to win, get help wherever you can.

Then genuine originality is lost and help to the point, that none of concept or results are the work of the candidate. No.

evolving_doors

treade1 wrote: »

MRSA is a Biosafety Level 2 organism. Staff working with it should be fully trained and work should be confined to a Biological Safety Cabinet.
I'd love to see the Risk Assessment which allowed a 15 year old, 2nd level student, to work with this strain. In most university labs, students would not be let near a BSL 2 strain until at least the final year of their honors degree.

In fairness to the young lad I wouldn't think he had much say in the matter. He would have had to follow Mammy's orders. And if someone else had been selected as the winner the chances are that they too had access to a university lab through family or friends.

One thing I would like to know is if all these privileged Young Scientists contestants who gain access to University Labs, through family and friends, use funds which are supposed to be ear marked for undergraduate students or postgraduate students already attending these universities?

It was suggested that the winner spent 2 years working on the project. Anyone familiar with the costs associated with running a university lab will realize that the costs associated with conducting many of these projects can quickly run into thousands of euros.

Maybe the college had an outreach program.
Maybe it's part of it's department mission statement to promote stem amongst secondary/primary students.
We don't know.

But then again could another 'non-related' student have gotten such access (and lab time, man-hours). I dunno. The only way to know is if another student/teacher came forward and show that they were turned away.

Corkgirl18

This year was my first year having students who actually qualified for the BTYSE and made it to the RDS. It was a fantastic experience and the kids loved it but it is very obvious looking around that some projects received serious help from professionals.
It is definitely disheartening when you know that some students are at a serious advantage.

jmcc

Elijah Chubby Typographer wrote: »

Well our school has decided to take a year off applying to BTYSE to see if there will be any rules changes after this winning project disclosure.

That, if confirmed, might be news. But would it be covered by the media? There does seem to be a bit of a kerfuffle over these disclosures.

Regards...jmcc

Staph

evolving_doors wrote: »

Maybe the college had an outreach program.
Maybe it's part of it's department mission statement to promote stem amongst secondary/primary students.
We don't know.

But then again could another 'non-related' student have gotten such access (and lab time, man-hours). I dunno. The only way to know is if another student/teacher came forward and show that they were turned away.

Look, undergrads don't get access to these organisms ordinarily -so how does a 2nd level student? You have to be properly trained to handle them, so he some how has vast experience in microbiology or someone with the training did the micro work.
This is not what university outreach looks like and I would know as I have been involved in science outreach in university.

I am also a former entrant in this exhibition and I feel this undermines the efforts of students who participated without such aid and assistance.

Roger Hassenforder

Elijah Chubby Typographer wrote: »

Well our school has decided to take a year off applying to BTYSE to see if there will be any rules changes after this winning project disclosure. Our schools science teachers want projects to reflect good honest 2nd level projects where within reason guidance was sought by the students but there has to be proven originality in the methodology. Otherwise the exhibition hall will eventually become a blinged up graphically designed display of projects that the pupils have been beyond mentored on.

While i agree with you and would do the same, its sad that this is what happens.
Shame on BTYSE

jmayo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

While i agree with you and would do the same, its sad that this is what happens.
Shame on BTYSE

It is a shame, but it is a bigger shame if nothing is done and the nod and wink mentality is left continue.
Will it finally stop when some kid rolls up with data from the Large Hadron Collider, all because his uncle Bill happens to work there on the very same research area.

Remember that famous quote attributed to Edmund Burke about doing nothing.

The only way there will be meaningful change is if in the next few years there are way less entrants and schools, science teachers in particular, just say we don't trust the format, the rules and the judging, so good luck.

It is sad that real original pieces of work that definitely stand up to scrutiny, ala Patrick Collison mentioned earlier, might be tainted by what has and is happening as we speak.

Also doesn't it make a bit of a mockery of our supposed great achievements in science education when the winner of our most lauded prize in student science happens to have a mother doing the exact same research professionally.

retro:electro

He was just on Maura and Daithi there. No mention of his mother whatsoever. Lots of references to his inspirational grandfather though. He was extremely evasive answering normal run of the mill questions and put his aloofness down to not getting enough sleep. I got the feeling that he was willing to answer just enough but not too much. Maybe he's socially awkward, not sure- but most of his answers were just "yes that's right" type of thing without any advancement on the question. Stinks to high heaven.
He was on with a previous winner and there was a remarkable difference in how they spoke. She was well able to go. Very eloquent and extremely well informed of her project.

Muahahaha

treade1 wrote: »

MRSA is a Biosafety Level 2 organism. Staff working with it should be fully trained and work should be confined to a Biological Safety Cabinet.
I'd love to see the Risk Assessment which allowed a 15 year old, 2nd level student, to work with this strain. In most university labs, students would not be let near a BSL 2 strain until at least the final year of their honors degree.

The family connections to the labs and a judge have me thinking something stinks here. But also the MRSA organism angle surprised me in that someone so inexperienced could be working with these type of organisms. But as Im not from a science background could someone explain what would be the type of scenarios that could happen with an accident in the lab? Could a careless person leave the lab with traces of it on skin/clothing and then spread it to other people?

JMNolan

I'm a bit skeptical of the whole thing to be honest but did the guy actually work with MRSA? Is that confirmed somewhere? Or is it a case of "I think my discovery can be used to fight MRSA"?

_Dara_

Someone linked to the contest said that the winner had "PhD level" science knowledge. Based on his wet-behind-the-ears comments on scientists over-complicating things, I doubt that very much.

Finding compounds in plants with medicinal properties is nothing new. The key problem is finding a way to get those compounds to the part of the body where they are needed without being broken down by the body first. This is known as pharmacokinetics (there's that pesky over-complication) and if he had PhD-level knowledge, he would have known this. Hell, even undergrads learn about this so he's not even at that level yet.

jmayo

JMNolan wrote: »

I'm a bit skeptical of the whole thing to be honest but did the guy actually work with MRSA? Is that confirmed somewhere? Or is it a case of "I think my discovery can be used to fight MRSA"?

One would presume he has to work with it to prove his project or otherwise some kid could turn up and claim his farts Correction his mother's farts can be used to fight MRSA.

JMNolan

jmayo wrote: »

One would presume he has to work with it to prove his project or otherwise some kid could turn up and claim his farts Correction his mother's farts can be used to fight MRSA.

But does his project actually state the work can fight MRSA?

Rhys Essien

anna080 wrote: »

He was just on Maura and Daithi there. No mention of his mother whatsoever. Lots of references to his inspirational grandfather though. He was extremely evasive answering normal run of the mill questions and put his aloofness down to not getting enough sleep. I got the feeling that he was willing to answer just enough but not too much. Maybe he's socially awkward, not sure- but most of his answers were just "yes that's right" type of thing without any advancement on the question. Stinks to high heaven.
He was on with a previous winner and there was a remarkable difference in how they spoke. She was well able to go. Very eloquent and extremely well informed of her project.

I watched it earlier.The previous winner knew her stuff,going into detail.The impression I got from him was that he seemed to fob Daithi and Maura off.Something not adding up.

jimmynokia

http://www.thejournal.ie/bt-young-scientist-2-3801071-Jan2018/

kaymin

Rhys Essien wrote: »

I watched it earlier.The previous winner knew her stuff,going into detail.The impression I got from him was that he seemed to fob Daithi and Maura off.Something not adding up.

The judges have alot to answer for if this impression is correct. While I disagree with many posters about limiting access to resources if he wasn't allowed near MRSA it's hard to see how he could take ownership of his project.

kaymin

kaymin wrote: »

The judges have alot to answer for if this impression is correct. While I disagree with many posters about limiting access to resources if he wasn't allowed near MRSA it's hard to see how he could take ownership of his project.

Devil is in the detail. His project passed all inspection by the judges. So question is, what work exactly did he do that resulted in his win?

Was it the plant research, or was it lab work that made him a winner or both?

Quite possibly someone qualified handled the lab work but under his instruction?

TheAnalyst_

jimmynokia wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/bt-young-scientist-2-3801071-Jan2018/

A very weak response there like with the irish times. Nobody is saying that having a parent in science means disqualification but it should when you research that they have already done. 

There has been a concerted effort from the ogranisers, friends and PR agencies to paint the dissenters as nothing but sad cranks. Jealous budgerigars and trolls that are ruining the moment for an innocent child. 
In reality we're doing the job of the media and trying to get to the truth. Ireland is full of cute hoors and schemers and it can feel like the cards are stacked against you. I mean in this case we have some parents employing PR agencies just for the kids to get ahead and that is quite sad. 
We have a right to ask questions and stand to stand up for fairness.

cookie1977

You can read some of his poster here from this photo. It appears the MRSA testing was done in Cork University Hospital:

TheAnalyst_

Lackey wrote: »

evolving_doors wrote: »

That was someone on Twitter.
Is that in the btys rules?

Someone posted this on Twitter:

EUCYS rules:

Article 16
Where, in the opinion of the Jury, contestants:
a) are estimated to have received undue assistance from experts;
b) have benefited from undue privileged access to resources;
c) have clearly plagiarised ideas from others without indicating the source; d) are withholding information about the project or themselves;
e) have not acknowledged the use of certain software.
they will be excluded from the competition

He utterly fails on points a and b for the european competition. I will be making sure the organisers are aware of this but unfortunately as its in Ireland the organisers will likely be the same family friends.