BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

_Dara_

cookie1977 wrote: »

You can read some of his poster here from this photo. It appears the MRSA testing was done in Cork University Hospital:

By medical scientists at CUH. That's mad. This is not a level playing field. :eek:

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

TheAnalyst_

Here is his mothers earlier published research. It seems she had a student test multiple plants using the same method. 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41120517_In_vitro_activity_of_Inula_helenium_against_clinical_Staphylococcus_aureus_strains_including_MRSA

jmcc

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Things must be getting worse if they have to roll out a founder of the contest. Wonder if there will be folllow-up pieces in the newspapers?

Regards...jmcc

jmayo

jimmynokia wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/bt-young-scientist-2-3801071-Jan2018/

Things are bad when they are wheeling out one of the founders of Young Scientist to try clean this up.

Ok look closely once again at the marketing PR blurb.

Some people on social media had suggested Simon’s win was unfair as he received help from a chemistry lecturer at University College Cork (UCC), and also because his mother is a microbiologist and his grandfather is a botanist.

No mention of fact the mammy was actually involved in a project doing this exact type of research.

Speaking to TheJournal.ie, Dr Tony Scott, co-founder of competition, vigorously defended Simon’s work, saying the teenager has an “amazing” level of knowledge.

Scott didn’t judge Simon’s project, but over 10 other judges viewed his work.

And the primary one in that category was from the very university involved in this project. :rolleyes:

Scott said many students get advice and support from universities or hospitals, noting that schools often wouldn’t have access to the equipment they need otherwise.

Once any outside help they’ve received is documented in their report book, Scott said this is “absolutely fine”. He said the judges who had reviewed Simon’s project said it was “quite clear” he had done the work himself.

So did he use all the equipment himself and did he work with controlled pathogens like MRSA ?

Int he picture above it states that sampels were independently tested against MRSA.
So that is one thing he didn't do himself.

Forgive me for still being ultra skeptical of this whole mullarkey.

TheAnalyst_

FFS looking at that image above. He has a photo of his dead grandfather front and centre. How horribly cynical for a 15 year old.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

Devil is in the detail. His project passed all inspection by the judges. So question is, what work exactly did he do that resulted in his win?

Was it the plant research, or was it lab work that made him a winner or both?

Quite possibly someone qualified handled the lab work but under his instruction?

Ahh FFS, so now it is a competition for project management ?

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

He utterly fails on points a and b for the european competition. I will be making sure the organisers are aware of this but unfortunately as its in Ireland the organisers will likely be the same family friends.

There is no way that this project should now represent Ireland.

Martina1991

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Here is his mothers earlier published research. It seems she had a student test multiple plants using the same method. 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41120517_In_vitro_activity_of_Inula_helenium_against_clinical_Staphylococcus_aureus_strains_including_MRSA

Just reading the abstract alone, the hypothesis is nearly the exact same as the BTYSOTY project, just with different plants, and tested on more strains of Staphylococcus.

screamer

I definitely think things don't add up in this "competition" and have long believed that some of the kids are just fronting for adults doing the work. Maybe with coding or something they can learn to program well but still.... I think that it should be judged by peers and not adults who are judging the projects with an adult yardstick.

cookie1977

This is an interesting paper from 2011:
Antimicrobial screening of fruit, leaves, root and stem of Rubus fruticosus

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274248214_Antimicrobial_screening_of_fruit_leaves_root_and_stem_of_Rubus_fruticosus

it's a scam Joe.

_Dara_

I feel sorry for the kid though. He’s young. His parents should have had more cop on than to expose their teenager to this scrutiny.

I think scrutinising is important though because the stakes are real.

jmcc

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

85 comments but comments don't seem to be loading.

Regards...jmcc

5rtytry56

jmcc wrote: »

85 comments but comments don't seem to be loading.

Regards...jmcc

Tried it as well. While other pages load fine, the Comments are stuck at the 'Loading' stage.....…....

TheAnalyst_

90% of the comments were "what an amazing young man. F**k the begrudgers and trolls"/

_Dara_

jmcc wrote: »

85 comments but comments don't seem to be loading.

Regards...jmcc

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Tried it as well. While other pages load fine, the Comments are stuck at the 'Loading' stage.....…....

Most of the comments are rambling on about begrudgers.

jmcc

_Dara_ wrote: »

Most of the comments are rambling on about begrudgers.

Yep. A lot of shared vocabulary. (Had to click the comments like at the top of the article to see the comments as the in-page comments window wasn't loading.

Regards...jmcc

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

_Dara_

I saw a comment on twitter from someone expressing disgust at the winner being scrutinised. They questioned how students are going to be encouraged to enter if their efforts are scrutinised. But I think this would encourage more students to enter if they thought it was a more level playing field.

_Dara_

_Dara_ wrote: »

I saw a comment on twitter from someone expressing disgust at the winner being scrutinised. They questioned how students are going to be encouraged to enter if their efforts are scrutinised. But I think this would encourage more students to enter if they thought it was a more level playing field.

A more level playing field would certainly encourage more participation. But a lot of thinking would need to go into what constitutes the conditions and rules that would create a level playing field in the first place.

You would think that formalising through clear rules/guidelines, the role that universities play and provision of 3rd level expertise/advice to all entrants should be a good first step.

evolving_doors

Ok I agree with the general sentiment about access but it still doesn't mean he broke the rules.
Let's be clinical.

Staph wrote: »

Look, undergrads don't get access to these organisms ordinarily -so how does a 2nd level student?

Postgrads? Lecturer? Lab tech?
Is it wrong if someone helped him get the tests he wanted... not in the sense of tax payers money etc... but did he break any BTYS rules that we 100% know if?

Staph wrote: »

You have to be properly trained to handle them, so he some how has vast experience in microbiology or someone with the training did the micro work.

So... he got somebody trained to do the tests he required. Is that breaking the rules?
If I use surveymonkey to get and graph survey results am I breaking the rules?
Do I have to use a pen and paper and hard copy surveys? No.

Staph wrote: »

This is not what university outreach looks like and I would know as I have been involved in science outreach in university.

Outreach can mean many things in different universities and departments. It can range from informal to highly regulated and rigourus application procedure. We don't know the nature of his approach with the department who did the testing. Maybe his mum told him to write a formal letter requesting assistance... Maybe she didn't.
Still doesn't mean he broke any BTYS rules.

Staph wrote: »

I am also a former entrant in this exhibition and I feel this undermines the efforts of students who participated without such aid and assistance.

Maybe this students/teachers/parents need to take it to the nth degree and get the assistance by hook or by crook! If this help is forbidden then its back to the school lab and potato clocks.

DaisyFay

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh FFS, so now it is a competition for project management ?



There is no way that this project should now represent Ireland.

Yeah, knowing how 3rd level research is carried out IMO there's no way he did much more than compile the data and put together his poster/a story about how how his idea 'evolved'. The level of assistance he received was solely down to his mother and her contacts - while I have no doubt he has an interest in science/microbiology etc, I'm sure his mother put this project together quickly in the same manner that projects/placements are designed for undergrad students - a simple project that'll make a nice story for a thesis/poster, exposure to some techniques and an interesting conclusion/impact.

This is not, at all, what science at second level should be about. Looking through the list of the qualified projects for this year, you can really sense pure interest and excitement for science and the scientific process from looking at making a simple centrifuge for use in developing countries to the effect of music genre on the quality of cows milk (!). What's really standing out is the almost complete lack of understanding on this guys part about his work, and how shifty he seems - this really isn't someone who has researched the area himself and understands his work on any level.

evolving_doors

glasso wrote: »

it's a scam Joe.

BlackBerry Scam :pac:

Just joking btw.

Roger Hassenforder

We seem to have a few sciene teachers here.
Be interesting to hear if the association of science teachers are doing anything about it...

http://www.ista.ie

_Dara_

evolving_doors wrote: »

So... he got somebody trained to do the tests he required. Is that breaking the rules?
If I use surveymonkey to get and graph survey results am I breaking the rules?
Do I have to use a pen and paper and hard copy surveys? No.

This is a disingenuous analogy and you know it. No technique is required to use Surveymonkey.

Getting medical scientists at a hospital laboratory working for you is absolutely not something any secondary student could rock up and organise. There is actually a good bit of work required to carry out the experiments required (I know, having worked in a lab and witnessed the time and resources used). I would really question their time and resources being used to help a secondary student out with a project. I also agree with the yardstick someone mentioned that the work done should be easily reproducible by other students.

c.p.w.g.w

cookie1977 wrote: »

You can read some of his poster here from this photo. It appears the MRSA testing was done in Cork University Hospital:

Is that Jon Snow???

Turtwig

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Is that Jon Snow???

The empiricist, the journalist or the bastard? Think it's neither.

DaisyFay

DaisyFay wrote: »

What's really standing out is the almost complete lack of understanding on this guys part about his work, and how shifty he seems - this really isn't someone who has researched the area himself and understands his work on any level.

Are you determining that from media interviews?

For me, it doesn't make sense as he's passed the scrutiny from the judges themselves- how he comes across in media is not hugely important.


What is not totally clear and the area I'd like more detail on is what was "new" about his study- has he discovered something not previously discovered?

If so, then while he followed research methodologies used previously (which in itself is not wrong if properly documented and discovered to the judges), the findings should indeed be celebrated.

I wish a more detailed description of the project was published- it would certainly help resolve these questions for all.

_Dara_

DaisyFay wrote: »

I'm sure his mother put this project together quickly in the same manner that projects/placements are designed for undergrad students - a simple project that'll make a nice story for a thesis/poster, exposure to some techniques and an interesting conclusion/impact.

This is what I think so too. She's have plenty of experience of this if she works in academia.

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Is that Jon Snow???

Yes, he was involved in some capacity.

evolving_doors

_Dara_ wrote: »

I feel sorry for the kid though. He’s young. His parents should have had more cop on than to expose their teenager to this scrutiny.

I think scrutinising is important though because the stakes are real.

Well maybe they said 'if you wanna take this all the way son we'll help' . If he didn't break any BTYS rules and can defend his research then how bad.
There's only 1 person i know of on this thread who spoke to him at the stand, they were former winners, had taught former winners and had experience and knowledge of his project to some extent. Anyway he said he knew his stuff. Ill try and find the exact quote.

Edit:

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.