BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

deezell

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

Children from privileged backgrounds can't cheat, it's genetics. Even if they did, their parents are probably pillars of the local community so that would cancel it out anyhow.

Sadly, we've seen what academic "pillars of the community" are capable of.
The real problem here is the smokescreen regarding his Grandfather's inspiration. Credit his mom and this discussion would be academic, pardon the pun. He wouldn't have won, but he'd be the better for it.

Dakota Dan

Sleeper12 wrote: »

He was a carpenter too I believe.

His stepfather Joseph was the carpenter.

Tom Mann Centuria

deezell wrote: »

Sadly, we've seen what academic "pillars of the community" are capable of.
The real problem here is the smokescreen regarding his Grandfather's inspiration. Credit his mom and this discussion would be academic, pardon the pun. He wouldn't have won, but he'd be the better for it.

Well since he's representing Ireland in EU version of the competition, he'll get another chance to credit and acknowledge his mother's interest and history with the subject.

joe_99

Claiming it was his grandfather who inspired him and having his grandfathers framed photo at the exhibition was cynical to say the least. It was obviously his mother who inspired him. She was probably the one inspired by the grandfather.

bucketybuck

Why do people say cheating?

Isn't it plagiarism?

ArnieSilvia

judeboy101 wrote:

2. Judges give their marks immediately after their judging on a special sheet. This is then given to the committee. They are forbidden to alter marks after that. They don't go googling it after as they are told they mark what they see and here.

See, and this is a massive problem.

I personally know one winner who clearly cheated. The project wasn't her, it had been around for years, been done to death. There's YouTube videos about exact same thing (nylon from bananas) from years preceding her win. She took all the glory. And she didn't need it, she is bright and extremely hard working. She will achieve what she wants. Still, not fair on genuine projects.

The fact that judges can't go and research the project and at least check if something similar was done before is a gate opener for frauds.

Or, maybe that gate was left open intentionally so schools and teachers get the winners, parents are proud, kids have 7k and no exams, win win for the gravy train

Roger Hassenforder

"I feel, without disrespecting the scientific community too much, that there should be some conclusions from this. We are over-thinking science in too many ways.”

Im gone from proud of a Cork student to angry; he's ripped off other students' work, spat in their face and fcuked over such students from Cork as these:

http://www.eveningecho.ie/life/128-Cork-projects-vying-for-Young-Scientist-title-9dee2ee4-b9cf-4cb0-977e-e7dbf99b57e6-ds


I hope they strip him of it.

Terri26

Lots of e tries get inspiration and ideas from their teachers. Teachers who have been involved in the competition know what they look for

r93kaey5p2izun

I thought it was common knowledge that many (most?) of the projects were essentially put together by a teacher/parent with expertise in that particular topic. That the kids do the practical work and learn as they go along but they are lead by someone with specific knowledge in this area. My experience says this is the norm and has gone from being a minority of entries 20 years ago to the overwhelming majority today.

Personally I don't have much time for BTYSE. I don't think it does much to develop scientific interest, knowledge and understanding or to promote STEM to most teenagers. I think ordinary science fairs, such as are common on American tv shows, are far more beneficial and worthwhile. Scifest used to fulfil this function brilliantly but is gradually going the way of BTYSE. At least they will support local science exhibitions showcasing ordinary basic science investigations and projects, within a school or between a few in a local area. That's the way go I think. Far more rewarding and brings greater benefits for the school community as a whole.

The Rape of Lucretia

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why do people say cheating?

Because it is a competition.

sjb25

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why do people say cheating?

Isn't it plagiarism?

Yeah he should have just wrote “mammy et al” been grand

222233

He's 15, the fact he's engaging in any kind of scientific research is insane, power to him! The kids involved in BT do work closely with the colleges anyway from what I understood so it would make sense that their work may be relevant to other work that's going on. Most research stems from previous studies it's how research typically comes about. In academia unless there is a clear foundation on which on study is built upon it's practically mute, if you went delving into most published articles you'd find that everything in some way can be related to something else.

For the people saying he should have disclosed about his mother being an academic.... if a child on a school sports team wins an Ireland and their parent happens to be a sports lecturer, should their win be deemed invalid? Similarly, there are some quite competitive quizzes and say debating competitions out there, should those children's contributions and achievements also be scrutinised based on the professions of their parents?

faceman

I think you’d want to be a fool to assume that a schoolchild is making ground breaking research on their own. That being said, some level of contribution to the scientific community should be offered as standard with respect to the fact, these are school kids and not PhD students.

A primary school kid would have more biology knowledge than me, but taking the 2007 article in the examiner and the kid’s project, it’s quite possible that he’s expanding on current research rather than having a Newton moment under an apple tree.

BTYS is a fantastic initiative drawing students into the science fields. Long may it continue.

Hector Bellend

To be honest, I feel there should be more competitions of this nature to encourage kids to pursue what they enjoy.

It's a damn site more meaningful than learning coordinate geometry of the circle or having Irish poetry forced down your throat.

TheAnalyst_

I think you’d want to be a fool to assume that a schoolchild is making ground breaking research on their own. 

As I said look at some of the past winners in IT. These are the real deal. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Collison

silverharp

222233 wrote: »

For the people saying he should have disclosed about his mother being an academic.... if a child on a school sports team wins an Ireland and their parent happens to be a sports lecturer, should their win be deemed invalid? Similarly, there are some quite competitive quizzes and say debating competitions out there, should those children's contributions and achievements also be scrutinised based on the professions of their parents?

poor analogies, no one else can run an race for you. there has to be an assumption that the kid is the brains of the project and not just the lab assistant.

222233

silverharp wrote: »

poor analogies, no one else can run an race for you. there has to be an assumption that the kid is the brains of the project and not just the lab assistant.

Disagree, reality is someones assisting these kids, no would should assume otherwise. The support kids receive from parents is not really relevant in that it exists across everything.

James 007

222233 wrote: »

For the people saying he should have disclosed about his mother being an academic.... if a child on a school sports team wins an Ireland and their parent happens to be a sports lecturer, should their win be deemed invalid? Similarly, there are some quite competitive quizzes and say debating competitions out there, should those children's contributions and achievements also be scrutinised based on the professions of their parents?

The fact of the matter is that his project is very much linked to his mothers work is the concern and if he has not disclosed his mothers work as part of his project then there is more of a concern. Had it being a different subject matter then it would not have been a concern. Comparing a sports lecturer parent with a son/daughter winning an ireland is quite different. The son/daughter still have to put in the physical effort to win, and besides most winning all-ireland players would be the first to thank their parents if they steered them in the right direction.

sullivlo

Hector Bellend wrote: »

To be honest, I feel there should be more competitions of this nature to encourage kids to pursue what they enjoy.

It's a damn site more meaningful than learning coordinate geometry of the circle or having Irish poetry forced down your throat.

There is a company - SciFest - who encourage schools to run their own science competition. The winners (and other projects that show promise) go on to SciFest@college, which is like a mini btyste. Projects that get accepted to btyste and that have been given recommendations often do that work and then resubmit to SciFest @ College.

Some of the kids go into google and google “school science project” and you’ll get a range of projects varying on types of slimes/power from potatoes/mentoes and coke, but you will also get 3 or 4 really good projects that are unique and have lots of potential and impress the judges.

Tom Mann Centuria

222233 wrote: »

Disagree, reality is someones assisting these kids, no would should assume otherwise. The support kids receive from parents is not really relevant in that it exists across everything.

His mum isn't just a supportive parent who happens to be an academic, she's a woman who's been directly involved in an academic study of the exact same subject her son has won a prize for studying.

Stoner

Roger Hassenforder wrote:

Im gone from proud of a Cork student to angry; he's ripped off other students' work, spat in their face and fcuked over such students from Cork as these:

Some great work there in fairness

bucketybuck

222233 wrote: »

Disagree, reality is someones assisting these kids, no would should assume otherwise. The support kids receive from parents is not really relevant in that it exists across everything.

That is insulting to all the other kids who did their own research instead of just piggybacking on already completed work his mother had done.

You did remember that there were other kids hoping for that prize, yes?

evolving_doors

James 007 wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that his project is very much linked to his mothers work is the concern and if he has not disclosed his mothers work as part of his project then there is more of a concern. Had it being a different subject matter then it would not have been a concern. Comparing a sports lecturer parent with a son/daughter winning an ireland is quite different. The son/daughter still have to put in the physical effort to win, and besides most winning all-ireland players would be the first to thank their parents if they steered them in the right direction.

That's the thing, we don't actually know if he didn't cite her. In fairness he might actually be building upon public knowledge himself through guidance.
But the fact that it was omitted does the competition no credit.

At least a few years ago a student who won did credit her mother ... that did lead to a bit of suspicion. Maybe this time they tried to avoid any suspicion by advising him to not mention it publicly (the written up research might be all straight up about acknowledgements ... we don't know).

Oh what a tangled web we weave .
Anyhow I don't think the link is up on this thread so here's the 2007 research media blurb.

https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/mrsa-faces-defeat-from-wild-flower-48105.html

Stoner

222233 wrote:

Disagree, reality is someones assisting these kids, no would should assume otherwise. The support kids receive from parents is not really relevant in that it exists across everything.

The support kids receive is most definitely relevant. Particularly if it's around finding an idea

The kids completing the race is proof that they have received the training but have put it into practice themselves.


You can't can't say the same here.

deezell

Failure to disclose your resources and cite previous work leads to reactions exactly like this thread. What else can you expect after reading gushing tributes like this;
"His project has led to the discovery of a potential new antibiotic capable of beating antimicrobial resistant bacteria including MRSA. He’s been working on it for two years and was inspired by his herbalist grand-father Eddie Lucey"
Will Goodbody looks like a tabloid journalist after that.
If the €35,000 worth of research in 2007 didn't produce the goods, then this is not going anywhere. I know we all need to encourage kids, but "false praise is worse than no praise"

covey09

I'm fairly disappointing that this would go on, but i'm not surprised.As was stated in a previous posts the fact he cited his G'father as the inspiration was definitely used to draw attention from His mother involvement. Talk ta Joe!

joe40

What was his methodolgy in his research. Did he grow MRSA cultures in a school lab? I don't know the details

222233

bucketybuck wrote: »

That is insulting to all the other kids who did their own research instead of just piggybacking on already completed work his mother had done.

You did remember that there were other kids hoping for that prize, yes?

So the study had already been published by his mother? i'm confused.

Austria!

Without knowing anything about this project, I'd imagine it won because it was a very interesting (and lucky) result, and not because it was scientifically dazzling. I would guess it was a simple project and required little actual ingenuity from the kid, probably something like extraction of compounds from plants and checking for a zone of clearing in a lawn of S. aureus. Any help from his mother would be telling him some very basic techniques that he could test out on plants, which he could probably have googled anyway. Sure, access to whatever chemical and agar and cultures was very important, but no one would expect any working scientist to DIY these things anyway.

evolving_doors

222233 wrote: »

So the study had already been published by his mother? i'm confused.

Very Similar one associated with mother. May not have been precisely her research topic.
https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/mrsa-faces-defeat-from-wild-flower-48105.html