BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

Wombatman

goose2005 wrote: »

Irene Joliot-Curie won a Nobel Prize for discovering artificial radioactivity, although presumably her parents did all the work for her too

Did she acknowledge their contribution perchance?

evolving_doors

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

It's just like in the Simpsons pinebox derby race episode.

Well off academic parents = you get to cruise in the Roadkill 2000.

Working class parents = you have to drive the wonky car Homer Simpson built that falls apart before the finish line.

Except in reality the cheater always wins, as he did in the young scientist contest. It's actually really annoying me now, the parents are probably going around like they are so proud when they should be ashamed.

That's unfair. He might have fulfilled everything to the letter as set out in competition requirements. What he puts forward or doesn't in the media is up to him.

Dan Jaman

Hmm... In previous years I've been struck by the apparent similarity of the winner's project to things I know were already done elsewhere, and the presenters gush over it as if it's brand new and original work.
This is partly the fault of the media-trained journalists, who know nothing about anything sciencey, so take at face value what they're told, but I think it also reflects on the judging and selection.

diomed

goose2005 wrote: »

and 3 counties out of 32 have won 72% of the hurling all-Irelands. Clearly they're cheating too.

6 schools out of 723 (0.83%) won 32.5% of the Young Scientists.
Or 6 schools won as much as you would expect 269 schools to win.

What has hurling got to do with the Young Scientist competition?

evolving_doors

weldoninhio wrote: »

Q. How many schools in Ireland do you know that are allowed use pathogenic bacterial strains, like this kid used for his project??

A. None

This has been explained before. Schools are allowed to link in with colleges.

Roger Hassenforder

Elijah Chubby Typographer wrote: »

Well having had 2 teens enter this project they both felt very let down after competing in BTYS last year and this year.... My son had a wonderful project last year all his own work and completely original . . The hours he worked on it were beyond crazy . He didn't come away with any prize , not even a highly commended rosette
The entry that came 1st in my sons category had a bread/dough related product project . This winner has a dad who owns a bakery and a uncle working there too. Members of the public who came in to view kept saying to this winner "Oh I saw this on Nationwide on TV a while back " and yes upon googling the whole thing was there. That wasn't right BT so no checks .

This year my daughter did a fab project = again original we've no universities near us and it was all her idea and work. She again got nothing but the student that got 1st has both parents as English teachers and her project was in behavioural sciences about literacy. Student told me her Mum and Dad had no Christmas break as they had to help her.

There is no way BT can police what help kids get and there is no time in the judging process to find out if the idea is original so its a bit disheartening indeed.

This is what annoys me.
Any kid thinking of entering it now knows the deck is stacked against them, going up against kids drawing on third level post graduate level resources, and says feck that. Any kid from a disadvantaged area can forget it.

Its a competition for kids, not for parents. I hope that winners mother feels like i did the time i dribbled past 6 of my kids friends (went around one of them twice, the fcukin mug), and let fly a screamer from 10 yards into the top corner of the net. Keeper hadnt a chance, skidded along the grass on my knees to the corner flag.
He was 5.

Give back the money. Do the decent thing.

diomed

Schools should refuse to enter. End the farce.

Mickeroo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Its a competition for kids, not for parents. I hope that winners mother feels like i did the time i dribbled past 6 of my kids friends (went around one of them twice, the fcukin mug), and let fly a screamer from 10 yards into the top corner of the net. Keeper hadnt a chance, skidded along the grass on my knees to the corner flag.
He was 5.

Laughed harder at this than I probably should have.

Austria!

Bitches Be Trypsin wrote: »

I'm currently doing research on finding an antibiotic against MRSA in CIT. I'm using soil samples. Dr. Lucey has guided me and taught me for the last two years about various aspects of biology. However, I'm not copying her project. How can you say he is, and I'm not?

_Dara_ wrote: »

She'll be credited in your work though. She might even be second author if you publish. We don't know if she wasn't credited in his work but in this context, it's strange that he didn't mention her. He did bring up his inspirations.

She could be credited in the work, or even second author, but only if she contributed to the paper or experiments in the paper. If she only taught BBT about aspects of biology then she would not be credited.
People get all sorts of help in science, being allowed to use or shown how to use different bits of equipment, given good ideas at presentations or at conferences, helped out with some stats etc. None of it needs to be credited, though sometimes it might get an acknowledgment at the end of the paper depending on what it is.

If all the boys mother did was tell/show him how to isolate compounds from plants and test them for anti-bacterial action, then she didn't do the work.

Martina1991 wrote: »

I got an A in science, I pursued it and now work as a scientist. I wouldn't have had a clue about understanding the parthenogenesis of antibiotic resistant bacteria in 4th year.

I would have had. And kids have google these days. You know you could probably literally email some scientist in the area and ask how to do it or for a link to some study which is similar.
Parthenogenesis is the wrong word btw. You meant pathogenesis,which is not exactly what this kids was studying either, but antibacterial activity.

spurious

diomed wrote:

Schools should refuse to enter. End the farce.

Many already do.

Roger Hassenforder

Elijah Chubby Typographer wrote: »

diomed wrote: »

Schools should refuse to enter. End the farce.

I feel at the initial stages when students enter and present their one page proposal that before BT accept the project , they must check if the idea is out there already, and if so make themselves familiar with what is out there already and judges briefed up on it.

The onus cant be on the judges to catch the cnuts. The onus should be on the cnuts not to "cheat"
If only equipment available in schools is allowed with no third level "support" , it would go some way. It should be simple to spot them then. First fcuker that rocks up with Hi-res images of the arsehole of Saturn can be booted in favour of the kid with the potato powered clock.

TheAnalyst_

Some of the comments from the winner are hard to take. You think that he'd keep his head down after pulling a fast one and not be going around like billy big bollocks. Sad.

222233

joe40 wrote: »

The young scientist competition overall is great, but I strongly believe projects should be at leaving certificate standard of science, and not require specialist equipment.
How did a pupil in a school lab carry out investigations using MRSA. I teach Science in the North and no way would that be allowed. These are nasty pathogens. Leaving cert standard does not mean limited to the content of the leaving cert rather the sampling and measurement techniques employed should be accessible to all students.
I think it would be interesting if the organisers produced a list of projects beforehand (only broad outline) and pupils had to choose one to investigate. This  would still leave a lot of original work and ideas for pupils to do.

if we took that approach to science then the world we would be without many of the most amazing innovations we have ever had. Innovation should never be capped, if they have the capacity to do better or higher than the curriculum standard than why stop them?

Tom Mann Centuria

222233 wrote: »

if we took that approach to science then the world we would be without many of the most amazing innovations we have ever had. Innovation should never be capped, if they have the capacity to do better or higher than the curriculum standard than why stop them?

They can go as high as they like and innovate as much as they like, just not in competition with the other students who don't have the advantages they do.

TheAnalyst_

It should be run like the special Olympics with a focus on participation and not competition. The media should take a similar view of it rather than celebrating the winner like some hero. 
I found one recentish winner has given themselves a wikipeda page despite them having a very normal low level academic career.

Roger Hassenforder

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

It should be run like the special Olympics with a focus on participation and not competition. The media should take a similar view of it rather than celebrating the winner like some hero. 
I found one recentish winner has given themselves a wikipeda page despite them having a very normal low level academic career.

True.
7k is quite the temptation

bucketybuck

222233 wrote: »

if we took that approach to science then the world we would be without many of the most amazing innovations we have ever had. Innovation should never be capped, if they have the capacity to do better or higher than the curriculum standard than why stop them?

Don't stop them.

Just don't give them €7000 while pretending that it was ever a level playing field.

faceman

Article in the Times about it now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/young-scientist-winner-defended-amid-accusations-of-outside-help-1.3356238

TheAnalyst_

I'm sorry but how can you report on this objectively and then a subheading calling it a "landmark study". His mothers research is not landmark work.

Tom Mann Centuria

faceman wrote: »

Article in the Times about it now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/young-scientist-winner-defended-amid-accusations-of-outside-help-1.3356238

No mention of previous studies of an extremely similar nature that his mother was involved in. More or less a free hit from BTYS with the no actual questioning in that article.

diomed

Prof John O’Halloran of UCC is a competition judge.

The winner Simon Meehan repeatedly thanked
his grandfather, Eddie Lucey, a well-known herbalist from Bandon;
his science teacher, Karina Lyne;
his mother Dr Brigid Lucey
UCC for assistance in conducting his research.

No links then, move along.

cookie1977

This was a title of one of the projects:

Investigating Changes In Cell Morphology As A Consequence of Caesarian-Section [C-Section] Delivery and Gender.


http://colaistetreasa.com/2017/10/27/bt-young-scientist-2018/

This is a picture of the poster:
https://twitter.com/Alanpbarry/status/952943708894384128

Martina1991

cookie1977 wrote:

Investigating Changes In Cell Morphology As A Consequence of Caesarian-Section [C-Section] Delivery and Gender.

That's ridiculous. That's like a 3rd level undergrad project.

r93kaey5p2izun

I don't have an issue with an elite competition for exceptional teens with access to exceptional resources. I just hate the way the media and "educationalists" (or media driven educationalists as is the case for at least one high profile commentator) push it every year as something anyone can do and the answer to all our education and STEM problems. I used to think it was worthwhile but the last time I participated, 8 years ago, I felt it was no longer really beneficial. Coverage this year just makes me sure I've made the right decision to avoid it

kaymin

The main issue posters to this thread had about the winner is that he never acknowledged his mother. Now we find he did acknowledge his mother in his thank you speech along with every other person that assisted him in a significant way. The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by others previously.

evolving_doors

kaymin wrote: »

The main issue posters to this thread had about the winner is that he never acknowledged his mother. Now we find he did acknowledge his mother in his thank you speech along with every other person that assisted him in a significant way. The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by Mothers previously.

FYP:pac:

Wombatman

faceman wrote: »

Article in the Times about it now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/young-scientist-winner-defended-amid-accusations-of-outside-help-1.3356238

In a series of interviews before, during the awards ceremony on Friday, and since, Simon Meehan repeatedly thanked his grandfather, Eddie Lucey, a well-known herbalist from Bandon; his science teacher, Karina Lyne; his mother Dr Brigid Lucey and UCC for assistance in conducting his research.

This bit is simply not true. Google all the coverage of the win. Granddad and teacher thanked constantly. Mother rarely mentioned. If she is, it is as "his mother" with no reference to the fact that she is a ‎senior lecturer in biological sciences in CIT. This omission is clearly by design.

Martina1991

kaymin wrote:

The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

kaymin wrote:

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by others previously.

How would not having resources make students more ambitious. It would be disheartening.

I want to be rich. But I guess I just need ambition.

TheAnalyst_

Yeah the IT seem to be doing their best to counter all the legitimate points raised online.

Tom Mann Centuria

kaymin wrote: »

The main issue posters to this thread had about the winner is that he never acknowledged his mother. Now we find he did acknowledge his mother in his thank you speech along with every other person that assisted him in a significant way. The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by others previously.

Be more ambitious with their projects while happening to live in an area with third level institutions or have good connections. Elitism is all well and good but perhaps then it should be an individual pursuit outside of school involvement.

professore

diomed wrote: »

Year School
1995 Abbey Grammar School, Newry
1993 Abbey Grammar School, Newry, Co. Down

1977 Colaiste Mhuire, Dublin
1972 Coláiste Mhuire, Baile Atha Cliath

2013 Kinsale Community School, Cork
2006 Kinsale Community School, County Cork
2009 Kinsale Community School, County Cork

1999 Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál, Blarney
2010 Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál, Blarney, County Cork

1975 St Finian’s College, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath
2003 St Finnian's College, Mullingar, County Westmeath

2004 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2007 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2012 Synge Street CBS, Dublin


43 years of the contest, 14 won by multiple school winners.
723 secondary schools in Ireland.

There are lots of schools that never send anyone.

NIMAN

He's bound to be on the LLS on Friday night anyway, wonder will our Ryan ask him any of these difficult questions?

Wombatman

NIMAN wrote: »

He's bound to be on the LLS on Friday night anyway, wonder will our Ryan ask him any of these difficult questions?

Was already on with Ryan.

Tom Mann Centuria

NIMAN wrote: »

He's bound to be on the LLS on Friday night anyway, wonder will our Ryan ask him any of these difficult questions?

:pac:

kaymin

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Be more ambitious with their projects while happening to live in an area with third level institutions or have good connections. Elitism is all well and good but perhaps then it should be an individual pursuit outside of school involvement.

Without accessing third level institutions it's likely that the students won't come up with anything new - at least in the science field. Rather than complain about elitism / lack of resources / contacts, perhaps schools should try to link up with universities with a view to using their resources / seeking their input. Ultimately this will generate a better outcome for Ireland Inc. Restricting access to resources will stunt students with initiative.

Tom Mann Centuria

kaymin wrote: »

Without accessing third level institutions it's likely that the students won't come up with anything new - at least in the science field. Rather than complain about elitism / lack of resources / contacts, perhaps schools should try to link up with universities with a view to using their resources / seeking their input. Ultimately this will generate a better outcome for Ireland Inc. Restricting access to resources will stunt students with initiative.

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Without accessing third level institutions it's likely that the students won't come up with anything new - at least in the science field. Rather than complain about elitism / lack of resources / contacts, perhaps schools should try to link up with universities with a view to using their resources / seeking their input. Ultimately this will generate a better outcome for Ireland Inc. Restricting access to resources will stunt students with initiative.

Why do they need to come up with something new? It's about developing an inquiring mind. And that also has a lot to do with failure. It doesn't have to be a perfect science project with a beginning, middle and end. It's about building knowledge. Not every scientist becomes a nobel prize winning one but perhaps their work might help a future scientist make the nobel prize winning discovery.

We're not helping the kids by saying "if only you were more ambitious and had better contacts your project could have been perfect".

NIMAN

Wombatman wrote: »

Was already on with Ryan.

Missed that....I switched over after the awful Room 101, chuck stuff in the bin segment.

kaymin

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

My sister is lecturer in UL and has been involved with young scientists in the past. If you don't ask you don't get.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Why do they need to come up with something new? It's about developing an inquiring mind. And that also has a lot to do with failure. It doesn't have to be a perfect science project with a beginning, middle and end. It's about building knowledge. Not every scientist becomes a nobel prize winning one but perhaps their work might help a future scientist make the nobel prize winning discovery.

We're not helping the kids by saying "if only you were more ambitious and had better contacts your project could have been perfect".

Who is saying that? Science is never perfect. Some posters are talking about restricting access to resources / others so that every participant is put on a level playing field - it reminds me of communism as it hinders initiative. If students are capable of coming up with something new (and they've proven themselves to be in the past) then why not give them every opportunity to do so in the future.

If students simply come up with something that has been done a thousand times before it doesn't really prove anything other than they can follow someone else's work.

Do we want to go down the path of participation medals and the like instead?

_Dara_

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

Having worked in a research lab in a university, that would be a bit fat no. Universities would not have the time and money and often inclination to help every secondary school student who comes to them for help. Researchers are already pulling long hours with their own research and with supervising undergraduate projects.

evolving_doors

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

Well you could prioritise friends and family first then so!!

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Who is saying that? Science is never perfect. Some posters are talking about restricting access to resources / others so that every participant is put on a level playing field - it reminds me of communism as it hinders initiative. If students are capable of coming up with something new (and they've proven themselves to be in the past) then why not give them every opportunity to do so in the future.

Do we want to go down the path of participation medals and the like instead?

You're absolutely right. The question arises in this thread is who came up with what here? Again as someone mentioned already, is it the young scientists exhibition or a chance for senior scientists to show how good they are?

I refer you back to a previous post of mine:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105850914&postcount=226

You cannot say that a young scientist came up with this. Plus Golgi apparatus staining? That's what postgrads/postdocs do.

_Dara_

kaymin wrote: »

Do we want to go down the path of participation medals and the like instead?

I think most people hate participation medals. But the playing field needs to be level.

evolving_doors

kaymin wrote: »

My sister is lecturer in UL and has been involved with young scientists in the past. If you don't ask you don't get.

How did they make contact with your sister. Just fire off an email?
Is there a structure in place in the college. Are there guidelines on who to take on, or is it purely at the discretion of the academic?

diomed

professore wrote: »

There are lots of schools that never send anyone.

Another project for next year.
"why do schools not enter students for the young parent of the year competition?”

joe40

I think science competitions like this should be more about promoting "good research" I mean careful selection of variables, good use of controls, accurate collection of data and sound analysis. That probably is the case for most of the projects and of course all pupils get help and guidance.
For me the problem is the way the media fawn the top entrants as if they have just discovered a cure for cancer. These are secondary school kids, projects that are at university level are just not believable. Phd students get help from their professors, thats not how a secondary school science fair should function.
By all means teachers and parents should tweak their ideas and suggest methods but then back off. As for using university labs, thats just silly. They will have to be more innovative with project ideas and methodology if limited to school labs. They will have plenty of years in university.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

You're absolutely right. The question arises in this thread is who came up with what here? Again as someone mentioned already, is it the young scientists exhibition or a chance for senior scientists to show how good they are?

I refer you back to a previous post of mine:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105850914&postcount=226

You cannot say that a young scientist came up with this. Plus Golgi apparatus staining? That's what postgrads/postdocs do.

How did this project fare in the rankings? As far as I understand the judges question the students to gauge whether the project is their own work. If this project didn't rank then perhaps the judges knew the student hadn't done the work.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

How did this project fare in the rankings? As far as I understand the judges question the students to gauge whether the project is their own work. If this project didn't rank then perhaps the judges knew the student hadn't done the work.

Not sure but remember the entry is competitive to begin with so this beat other projects into being selected for entry. The title should have raised eyebrows let alone the project summary.

BowSideChamp

How did this teenager do a project working with MRSA? Surely this was a h&s risk which should have been conducted in a specialised lab with qualified scientists.