BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

Roger Hassenforder

Elijah Chubby Typographer wrote: »

diomed wrote: »

Schools should refuse to enter. End the farce.

I feel at the initial stages when students enter and present their one page proposal that before BT accept the project , they must check if the idea is out there already, and if so make themselves familiar with what is out there already and judges briefed up on it.

The onus cant be on the judges to catch the cnuts. The onus should be on the cnuts not to "cheat"
If only equipment available in schools is allowed with no third level "support" , it would go some way. It should be simple to spot them then. First fcuker that rocks up with Hi-res images of the arsehole of Saturn can be booted in favour of the kid with the potato powered clock.

TheAnalyst_

Some of the comments from the winner are hard to take. You think that he'd keep his head down after pulling a fast one and not be going around like billy big bollocks. Sad.

222233

joe40 wrote: »

The young scientist competition overall is great, but I strongly believe projects should be at leaving certificate standard of science, and not require specialist equipment.
How did a pupil in a school lab carry out investigations using MRSA. I teach Science in the North and no way would that be allowed. These are nasty pathogens. Leaving cert standard does not mean limited to the content of the leaving cert rather the sampling and measurement techniques employed should be accessible to all students.
I think it would be interesting if the organisers produced a list of projects beforehand (only broad outline) and pupils had to choose one to investigate. This  would still leave a lot of original work and ideas for pupils to do.

if we took that approach to science then the world we would be without many of the most amazing innovations we have ever had. Innovation should never be capped, if they have the capacity to do better or higher than the curriculum standard than why stop them?

Tom Mann Centuria

222233 wrote: »

if we took that approach to science then the world we would be without many of the most amazing innovations we have ever had. Innovation should never be capped, if they have the capacity to do better or higher than the curriculum standard than why stop them?

They can go as high as they like and innovate as much as they like, just not in competition with the other students who don't have the advantages they do.

TheAnalyst_

It should be run like the special Olympics with a focus on participation and not competition. The media should take a similar view of it rather than celebrating the winner like some hero. 
I found one recentish winner has given themselves a wikipeda page despite them having a very normal low level academic career.

Roger Hassenforder

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

It should be run like the special Olympics with a focus on participation and not competition. The media should take a similar view of it rather than celebrating the winner like some hero. 
I found one recentish winner has given themselves a wikipeda page despite them having a very normal low level academic career.

True.
7k is quite the temptation

bucketybuck

222233 wrote: »

if we took that approach to science then the world we would be without many of the most amazing innovations we have ever had. Innovation should never be capped, if they have the capacity to do better or higher than the curriculum standard than why stop them?

Don't stop them.

Just don't give them €7000 while pretending that it was ever a level playing field.

faceman

Article in the Times about it now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/young-scientist-winner-defended-amid-accusations-of-outside-help-1.3356238

TheAnalyst_

I'm sorry but how can you report on this objectively and then a subheading calling it a "landmark study". His mothers research is not landmark work.

Tom Mann Centuria

faceman wrote: »

Article in the Times about it now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/young-scientist-winner-defended-amid-accusations-of-outside-help-1.3356238

No mention of previous studies of an extremely similar nature that his mother was involved in. More or less a free hit from BTYS with the no actual questioning in that article.

diomed

Prof John O’Halloran of UCC is a competition judge.

The winner Simon Meehan repeatedly thanked
his grandfather, Eddie Lucey, a well-known herbalist from Bandon;
his science teacher, Karina Lyne;
his mother Dr Brigid Lucey
UCC for assistance in conducting his research.

No links then, move along.

cookie1977

This was a title of one of the projects:

Investigating Changes In Cell Morphology As A Consequence of Caesarian-Section [C-Section] Delivery and Gender.


http://colaistetreasa.com/2017/10/27/bt-young-scientist-2018/

This is a picture of the poster:
https://twitter.com/Alanpbarry/status/952943708894384128

Martina1991

cookie1977 wrote:

Investigating Changes In Cell Morphology As A Consequence of Caesarian-Section [C-Section] Delivery and Gender.

That's ridiculous. That's like a 3rd level undergrad project.

r93kaey5p2izun

I don't have an issue with an elite competition for exceptional teens with access to exceptional resources. I just hate the way the media and "educationalists" (or media driven educationalists as is the case for at least one high profile commentator) push it every year as something anyone can do and the answer to all our education and STEM problems. I used to think it was worthwhile but the last time I participated, 8 years ago, I felt it was no longer really beneficial. Coverage this year just makes me sure I've made the right decision to avoid it

kaymin

The main issue posters to this thread had about the winner is that he never acknowledged his mother. Now we find he did acknowledge his mother in his thank you speech along with every other person that assisted him in a significant way. The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by others previously.

evolving_doors

kaymin wrote: »

The main issue posters to this thread had about the winner is that he never acknowledged his mother. Now we find he did acknowledge his mother in his thank you speech along with every other person that assisted him in a significant way. The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by Mothers previously.

FYP:pac:

Wombatman

faceman wrote: »

Article in the Times about it now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/young-scientist-winner-defended-amid-accusations-of-outside-help-1.3356238

In a series of interviews before, during the awards ceremony on Friday, and since, Simon Meehan repeatedly thanked his grandfather, Eddie Lucey, a well-known herbalist from Bandon; his science teacher, Karina Lyne; his mother Dr Brigid Lucey and UCC for assistance in conducting his research.

This bit is simply not true. Google all the coverage of the win. Granddad and teacher thanked constantly. Mother rarely mentioned. If she is, it is as "his mother" with no reference to the fact that she is a ‎senior lecturer in biological sciences in CIT. This omission is clearly by design.

Martina1991

kaymin wrote:

The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

kaymin wrote:

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by others previously.

How would not having resources make students more ambitious. It would be disheartening.

I want to be rich. But I guess I just need ambition.

TheAnalyst_

Yeah the IT seem to be doing their best to counter all the legitimate points raised online.

Tom Mann Centuria

kaymin wrote: »

The main issue posters to this thread had about the winner is that he never acknowledged his mother. Now we find he did acknowledge his mother in his thank you speech along with every other person that assisted him in a significant way. The issue has now been changed to the fact he had access to resources that other students don't have access to - personally I don't have an issue with this as maybe it will encourage others to be more ambitious with what they try to achieve from their projects.

To those that think he should have come up with his project without reference to anyone else's work or input seem to be ignorant about how science generally works - most scientific progress is made through tiny collaborative steps that are possible through the cumulative work done by others previously.

Be more ambitious with their projects while happening to live in an area with third level institutions or have good connections. Elitism is all well and good but perhaps then it should be an individual pursuit outside of school involvement.

professore

diomed wrote: »

Year School
1995 Abbey Grammar School, Newry
1993 Abbey Grammar School, Newry, Co. Down

1977 Colaiste Mhuire, Dublin
1972 Coláiste Mhuire, Baile Atha Cliath

2013 Kinsale Community School, Cork
2006 Kinsale Community School, County Cork
2009 Kinsale Community School, County Cork

1999 Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál, Blarney
2010 Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál, Blarney, County Cork

1975 St Finian’s College, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath
2003 St Finnian's College, Mullingar, County Westmeath

2004 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2007 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2012 Synge Street CBS, Dublin


43 years of the contest, 14 won by multiple school winners.
723 secondary schools in Ireland.

There are lots of schools that never send anyone.

NIMAN

He's bound to be on the LLS on Friday night anyway, wonder will our Ryan ask him any of these difficult questions?

Wombatman

NIMAN wrote: »

He's bound to be on the LLS on Friday night anyway, wonder will our Ryan ask him any of these difficult questions?

Was already on with Ryan.

Tom Mann Centuria

NIMAN wrote: »

He's bound to be on the LLS on Friday night anyway, wonder will our Ryan ask him any of these difficult questions?

:pac:

kaymin

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Be more ambitious with their projects while happening to live in an area with third level institutions or have good connections. Elitism is all well and good but perhaps then it should be an individual pursuit outside of school involvement.

Without accessing third level institutions it's likely that the students won't come up with anything new - at least in the science field. Rather than complain about elitism / lack of resources / contacts, perhaps schools should try to link up with universities with a view to using their resources / seeking their input. Ultimately this will generate a better outcome for Ireland Inc. Restricting access to resources will stunt students with initiative.

Tom Mann Centuria

kaymin wrote: »

Without accessing third level institutions it's likely that the students won't come up with anything new - at least in the science field. Rather than complain about elitism / lack of resources / contacts, perhaps schools should try to link up with universities with a view to using their resources / seeking their input. Ultimately this will generate a better outcome for Ireland Inc. Restricting access to resources will stunt students with initiative.

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Without accessing third level institutions it's likely that the students won't come up with anything new - at least in the science field. Rather than complain about elitism / lack of resources / contacts, perhaps schools should try to link up with universities with a view to using their resources / seeking their input. Ultimately this will generate a better outcome for Ireland Inc. Restricting access to resources will stunt students with initiative.

Why do they need to come up with something new? It's about developing an inquiring mind. And that also has a lot to do with failure. It doesn't have to be a perfect science project with a beginning, middle and end. It's about building knowledge. Not every scientist becomes a nobel prize winning one but perhaps their work might help a future scientist make the nobel prize winning discovery.

We're not helping the kids by saying "if only you were more ambitious and had better contacts your project could have been perfect".

NIMAN

Wombatman wrote: »

Was already on with Ryan.

Missed that....I switched over after the awful Room 101, chuck stuff in the bin segment.

kaymin

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

My sister is lecturer in UL and has been involved with young scientists in the past. If you don't ask you don't get.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Why do they need to come up with something new? It's about developing an inquiring mind. And that also has a lot to do with failure. It doesn't have to be a perfect science project with a beginning, middle and end. It's about building knowledge. Not every scientist becomes a nobel prize winning one but perhaps their work might help a future scientist make the nobel prize winning discovery.

We're not helping the kids by saying "if only you were more ambitious and had better contacts your project could have been perfect".

Who is saying that? Science is never perfect. Some posters are talking about restricting access to resources / others so that every participant is put on a level playing field - it reminds me of communism as it hinders initiative. If students are capable of coming up with something new (and they've proven themselves to be in the past) then why not give them every opportunity to do so in the future.

If students simply come up with something that has been done a thousand times before it doesn't really prove anything other than they can follow someone else's work.

Do we want to go down the path of participation medals and the like instead?