BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

_Dara_

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

Having worked in a research lab in a university, that would be a bit fat no. Universities would not have the time and money and often inclination to help every secondary school student who comes to them for help. Researchers are already pulling long hours with their own research and with supervising undergraduate projects.

evolving_doors

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And you think the Universities would have resources and time to meet the several hundred secondary schools that would look for their input?

Well you could prioritise friends and family first then so!!

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Who is saying that? Science is never perfect. Some posters are talking about restricting access to resources / others so that every participant is put on a level playing field - it reminds me of communism as it hinders initiative. If students are capable of coming up with something new (and they've proven themselves to be in the past) then why not give them every opportunity to do so in the future.

Do we want to go down the path of participation medals and the like instead?

You're absolutely right. The question arises in this thread is who came up with what here? Again as someone mentioned already, is it the young scientists exhibition or a chance for senior scientists to show how good they are?

I refer you back to a previous post of mine:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105850914&postcount=226

You cannot say that a young scientist came up with this. Plus Golgi apparatus staining? That's what postgrads/postdocs do.

_Dara_

kaymin wrote: »

Do we want to go down the path of participation medals and the like instead?

I think most people hate participation medals. But the playing field needs to be level.

evolving_doors

kaymin wrote: »

My sister is lecturer in UL and has been involved with young scientists in the past. If you don't ask you don't get.

How did they make contact with your sister. Just fire off an email?
Is there a structure in place in the college. Are there guidelines on who to take on, or is it purely at the discretion of the academic?

diomed

professore wrote: »

There are lots of schools that never send anyone.

Another project for next year.
"why do schools not enter students for the young parent of the year competition?”

joe40

I think science competitions like this should be more about promoting "good research" I mean careful selection of variables, good use of controls, accurate collection of data and sound analysis. That probably is the case for most of the projects and of course all pupils get help and guidance.
For me the problem is the way the media fawn the top entrants as if they have just discovered a cure for cancer. These are secondary school kids, projects that are at university level are just not believable. Phd students get help from their professors, thats not how a secondary school science fair should function.
By all means teachers and parents should tweak their ideas and suggest methods but then back off. As for using university labs, thats just silly. They will have to be more innovative with project ideas and methodology if limited to school labs. They will have plenty of years in university.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

You're absolutely right. The question arises in this thread is who came up with what here? Again as someone mentioned already, is it the young scientists exhibition or a chance for senior scientists to show how good they are?

I refer you back to a previous post of mine:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105850914&postcount=226

You cannot say that a young scientist came up with this. Plus Golgi apparatus staining? That's what postgrads/postdocs do.

How did this project fare in the rankings? As far as I understand the judges question the students to gauge whether the project is their own work. If this project didn't rank then perhaps the judges knew the student hadn't done the work.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

How did this project fare in the rankings? As far as I understand the judges question the students to gauge whether the project is their own work. If this project didn't rank then perhaps the judges knew the student hadn't done the work.

Not sure but remember the entry is competitive to begin with so this beat other projects into being selected for entry. The title should have raised eyebrows let alone the project summary.

BowSideChamp

How did this teenager do a project working with MRSA? Surely this was a h&s risk which should have been conducted in a specialised lab with qualified scientists.

_Dara_

joe40 wrote: »

I think science competitions like this should be more about promoting "good research" I mean careful selection of variables, good use of controls, accurate collection of data and sound analysis. That probably is the case for most of the projects and of course all pupils get help and guidance.
For me the problem is the way the media fawn the top entrants as if they have just discovered a cure for cancer. These are secondary school kids, projects that are at university level are just not believable. Phd students get help from their professors, thats not how a secondary school science fair should function.
By all means teachers and parents should tweak their ideas and suggest methods but then back off. As for using university labs, thats just silly. They will have to be more innovative with project ideas and methodology if limited to school labs. They will have plenty of years in university.

Exactly. PhD students slave away for three to four years. And it really is slaving, between long lab hours and all the reading required. And at that end of that, surprising little work is done relatively. I'm not having a go at PhD candidates, I'm pointing out how much work goes into every little discovery made in science. A former housemate of mine was doing her microbiology PhD throughout our time living together. She's highly intelligent and competent. But she was frequently frustrated and depressed with how her research was going because it's bloody hard work. My undergrad project was nine weeks in a lab. You get pretty much nothing done in that time, only learn a few techniques. So people are just drawing on their own knowledge when feeling sceptical about the amount of work presented by these kids when they are so young and have a pile of other subjects to study.

I've also worked with highly pathogenic bacteria. There is a good bit of training involved in being allowed to do so and only a handful of people have those permissions.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Not sure but remember the entry is competitive to begin with so this beat other projects into being selected for entry. The title should have raised eyebrows let alone the project summary.

I agree - most likely the judging process in the early stages won't have been rigorous. But to get back to the OP, according to the IT articles, the winning student would have gone through a rigorous judging process - so I don't think it is fair to deny him victory if he passed their knowledge tests.

Simon’s project was reviewed during five separate judging rounds. His work was reviewed by over 10 judges, in a cross-disciplinary approach,”

“The judges were aware that he had access to facilities in a third level institution as many of our participants do due to lack of some necessary equipment in their own school labs.

“The judges, through their rigorous questioning, were happy that the work and research had been undertaken by Simon, and that any assistance he received was acknowledged in his report book as is required by the BTYSTE exhibition rules.”

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

I agree - most likely the judging process in the early stages won't have been rigorous. But to get back to the OP, according to the IT articles, the winning student would have gone through a rigorous judging process - so I don't think it is fair to deny him victory if he passed their knowledge tests.

Simon’s project was reviewed during five separate judging rounds. His work was reviewed by over 10 judges, in a cross-disciplinary approach,”

“The judges were aware that he had access to facilities in a third level institution as many of our participants do due to lack of some necessary equipment in their own school labs.

“The judges, through their rigorous questioning, were happy that the work and research had been undertaken by Simon, and that any assistance he received was acknowledged in his report book as is required by the BTYSTE exhibition rules.”

So they say...
If it requires a third level institute to not only carry out the research for the young scientists competition but to win it and a parent in the exact field area of the project winner then that is very disappointing and not the competition that I was in back in 1994.

fly_agaric

Was thinking, if they limited it (as was suggested earlier) to what can be done just with the "standard" secondary school science lab equipment (no mammies and daddies with very well padded wallets and purses to top up the school science lab funds, or university contacts with "ins" to well equipped labs), there wouldn't be much of a competition left!

When I was a kid, you were doing well with dirty beakers, rusty old bunsen burners + bottles of reagents that were probably well past the use by date. Ireland Inc. as people call it was never much for over-spending on its childrens' education.

I'm getting on at this stage though, and maybe they have plasma etchers, FTIR spectrometers, HPLC machines and god knows what else in every school up + down the country now since the Celtic Tiger roared!

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

So they say...
If it requires a third level institute to not only carry out the research for the young scientists competition but to win it and a parent in the exact field area of the project winner then that is very disappointing and not the competition that I was in back in 1994.

I don't think that's a fair comment - you don't know what questions were asked of him or the depth of knowledge he displayed. Maybe if you were present for the judging process you might have a different view. The judges made their call - if you are really so concerned I'd suggest examining the qualifications of the judges instead as they are the ones that select the winner.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

I don't think that's a fair comment - you don't know what questions were asked of him or the depth of knowledge he displayed. Maybe if you were present for the judging process you might have a different view. The judges made their call - if you are really so concerned I'd suggest examining the qualifications of the judges instead as they are the ones that select the winner.

Well that jumped 20 steps.

I dont need to know anything more then what I see. I dont agree with the decision nor the pattern that's gone before and will no doubt continue in the competition. An educational arms race and to hell with the kids.

Dan Jaman

Well, speaking for myself only; when I was 15 I knew everything.

I was exposed to science fairly early on, and absorbed it like a sponge. It helped, of course, that a relative or two had jobs in science and engineering labs, but I was doing stuff that wouldn't be allowed by a 15 year-old now. More innocent times, I suppose.
I wish I could remember everything I knew then, too.

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Well that jumped 20 steps.

I dont need to know anything more then what I see. I dont agree with the decision nor the pattern that's gone before and will no doubt continue in the competition. An educational arms race and to hell with the kids.

That's a very narrow-minded view you have there. You know what you know and no-one will tell you otherwise.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

That's a very narrow-minded view you have there. You know what you know and no-one will tell you otherwise.

Go back and read my posts. I think I've assessed the situation enough, analysed the data I collected and come up with a scientifically sound conclusion and all on my own too!

Beechwoodspark

Just saw the mother on the news smirking away to herself like the cat who got the cream!

Call me cynical but it’s one hell of a coincidence that her darling boy gets the award for research in precisely her area of expertise...Give me a break

Roger Hassenforder

kaymin wrote: »

If students simply come up with something that has been done a thousand times once before it doesn't really prove anything other than they can follow someone else's work.

so ironic.
Even the edit was gilding your lily.


there's a little bit of me starting to feel sorry for this kid (notwithstanding the guff he has come out with); not only have they fcuked all the other honest entrants ( and lets remember they're just kids) bereft of third level phd boss level scienceing along the way, but he has been well and truly fcuked by his own mother and her cronies for the sake of either some vicarious academic kudos, or old boys shenanagins.

Originally I wanted him stripped of the title, but the potential damage to a kid as a result of his mothers actions is too much a risk.
Discreetly withhold the cash, and change the format of the competition so no kid ever has to go through this again.

josip

I did a project in 1987.
My teacher kindly organised an afternoon's use of WRTC's equipment for me. Not an electron microscope, just a better grade of equipment than we had in the school lab.
The one thing I remember from my day in that lab was that the research assistant/lab technician who was our point of contact was busy submitting a budget proposal for £10,000 of glassware at the time.
I asked why they needed that much new glass.
He said that they didn't actually need it, but they were £10,000 under budget for the year and if they didn't spend it on something, their budget for the following year would be reduced accordingly.
"You'll always break a bit of glass"

AudreyHepburn

I'm a little bit taken aback to the malice and begrudgery being leveled at a 15 year old just because he chose to use resources available to him that others may not have had access to.

I for one will bow to greater knowledge and accept that the judges might have a greater idea of what is required in the contest that the rest of us.

Who are any of us to deny him is reward?

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Go back and read my posts. I think I've assessed the situation enough, analysed the data I collected and come up with a scientifically sound conclusion and all on my own too!

You would know of course

chalkitdown1

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm a little bit taken aback to the malice and begrudgery being leveled at a 15 year old just because he chose to use resources available to him that others may not have had access to.

I for one will bow to greater knowledge and accept that the judges might have a greater idea of what is required in the contest that the rest of us.

Who are any of us to deny him is reward?

But conspiracies are so much more fun than common sense....

Roger Hassenforder

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm a little bit taken aback to the malice and begrudgery being leveled at a 15 year old just because he chose to use resources available to him that others may not have had access to.

I for one will bow to greater knowledge and accept that the judges might have a greater idea of what is required in the contest that the rest of us.

Who are any of us to deny him is reward?

i think most of us are just put out by the unfairness of the thing.
And when you read a judge is a crony of the mother, it just gets worse.
we're supposed to encourage STEM among our kids. this will have the opposite effect.
its not begrudgery or online "trolls" having a go.

AudreyHepburn

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

i think most of us are just put out by the unfairness of the thing.
And when you read a judge is a crony of the mother, it just gets worse.
we're supposed to encourage STEM among our kids. this will have the opposite effect.
its not begrudgery or online "trolls" having a go.

Do you honestly think he was the student involved who took advantage of great resources available to him?

And what exactly is wrong with a mother being proud of her son, even if she did assist him in some way?

_Dara_

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm a little bit taken aback to the malice and begrudgery being leveled at a 15 year old just because he chose to use resources available to him that others may not have had access to.

The hoary old 'begrudgery' accusation. Again.

Me personally, I'm usually very happy for the winners and interested in their projects. Why would I randomly begrudge this lad?

kaymin

_Dara_ wrote: »

The hoary old 'begrudgery' accusation. Again.

Me personally, I'm usually very happy for the winners and interested in their projects. Why would I randomly begrudge this lad?

We should just take your word for it then.

_Dara_

kaymin wrote: »

We just just take your word for it then.

Er yeah, that's kind of messageboards work, everyone taking everyone's else's word for it. Not much else you can do.