Should Irish be made optional at schools.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044059#Comment_120044059

There are two ways teachers who qualified outside of Ireland can fulfil the Irish language requirement -

THE IRISH LANGUAGE REQUIREMENT

Primary teachers who obtain their teaching qualification outside of the state are required to undertake the Irish Language Requirement in order to achieve full recognition as primary teachers within the Irish Republic.There are two routes to undertake the Irish Language Requirement. Candidates may choose to undertake the Scrúdú le hAghaidh Cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge (S.C.G. – Aptitude Test) or they may choose to undertake Oiriúnú le hAghaidh Cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge (O.C.G. – Adaptation Period and Assessment).

https://ilrweb.ie/

Hotblack Desiato

Expecting all primary teachers to be enthusiastic and able instructors in both the Irish language and Catholicism (90% of schools) / Protestantism (5%) is completely ridiculous in this day and age.

Specialist Irish teachers should be introduced at primary level and get religious instruction out of schools entirely.

As for "the first national language" - Baloney. De Valera writing a fantastical notion into the constitution doesn't make it a fact. Irish was once the most spoken language on this island but that was a very long time ago and that time is gone forever.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043580#Comment_120043580

We're not talking about education, we're talking about the language.

The end goal here (I presume) is more useage of the Irish language - at which point a certain level of anything is unimportant.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044018#Comment_120044018

...but it is to prepare children to contribute to Irish society as adults

And yet the vast majority manage with very rudimentary Irish.

Also, it';s not "our" anything - it's yours. And power to you, if that's what you want. But it comes across as arrogant to assume what is and is not important - or even should be important - to 100,000 teenagers. and a sizeable portion of the nation's adults.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044266#Comment_120044266

You could say that about any subject to be fair.

Pick a random person who did their leaving 10 years ago and ask them to solve a set of simultaneously equations (basic JC maths) and most won't be able to do it, or even explain it. That isn't a justification for scrapping maths as a subject

Nigel Fairservice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043696#Comment_120043696

Ya, that's why I sat the Irish Leaving Cert exam again in my 30s. I didn't end up primary teaching in the end but I took a bit more interest in the language after. I have done a few Irish courses through work as well after I re-sat the Irish exam which I probably would never have done.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044279#Comment_120044279

Don't be lying. You're really that yank Des Bishop aren't you?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044276#Comment_120044276

So what, then, are the criteria for a subject being mandatroy for the Leaving?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044311#Comment_120044311

No. I wrote what I meant - The fact that a lot of people might leave school with a low level of command of a subject is not justification for anything (except for maybe firing useless teachers).

Sure what are the average points in the Leaving? Is it even 300? Most people are doing sh1t at at least a few subjects. On the old scale of a maximum of 600 points I think it was less than 300. Not sure how the new scales would modify that. Not too many of those people would be sitting in labs curing cancer now if they could have done Business instead of Irish.

Edit: My post doesn't make sense now because you changed your one. It had asked if I meant to say "Irish" instead of "maths".

The condition for a subject being mandatory would be it being fundamental knowledge. Given that a language gets to the heart of a nation, and also to history etc, I would say Irish is indeed important. Why not have it as part of a core curriculum.

If you don't want to spend time on it, you don't have to. Plenty of students spend minimal time on what they choose they don't want to learn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044331#Comment_120044331

Firstly, apologies for the edit!

"Being fundamental knowledge" - what does this mean?

As for the "heart of the nation" - that's perilosly close to the Pearse quote fallacy - lots of countries have adopted prime languages and still have hearts and souls - take Brazil for example. Very vibrant culture and passionate soul, but Portugeese speaking instead of English.

Also, you've fallen into the same trap as Jack did in assuming that what is important to a nation is therefore imporant to every individual within it, so I ask you te asme question: What gives you the right to speak for 100,000 students and pretty much the poluation of an entire coiuntry?

I could also use your ratriuonale to make arguments for History and Religion to be mandatory subjects as well as mandatory Gaelic football and hurling in PE - are tey not "the heart of the nation" as well.

Greyfox

It should be optional after the JC. Forcing Irish on those who struggle with it is unhealthy for the actual Irish language.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044412#Comment_120044412

It is knowledge and it is an additional language. I don't get the big deal with it. If you feel that you were deprived of learning another subject, well you could take up that subject as an adult and probably cover the entire curriculum for that subject in about 2-3 months in your spare time. I mean, if you sat down, you could probably cover the material in a week for any of them. Except for maybe, ironically, languages.

I think the vast majority of students do at least one "spare" subject. Some do more. There is absolutely nothing stopping any student from dropping down to Foundation Level Irish should they so wish and basically ignoring the subject and spending their time on other subjects if they want. Nobody is forcing you to aim for an A in honour level Irish.

I am sure that in the real world, be it your job or your life in general, you had to learn plenty of things that weren't otherwise directly transferable. We can't have an a complete la carte school system. I get that people think they are special and want their own idea of a bespoke system applied to everyone, but that is the system that is there and you should just get on with it.

If the students go on to college, even though they are more specialised there, they will still undoubtedly have to learn things that they won't directly use again either. It doesn't mean those things should be removed from those curricula either

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044331#Comment_120044331

The "Ah shur, if we get rid of Irish we might as well get rid of everything" line crops up on these threads from time to time.

Not all subjects are equal. Most, if not all LC subjects have applications in most walks of life. Irish does not. It has none whatsoever unless you want to enter the cushy world of writing Irish textbooks and producing material for the government in Irish. That's literally it. It's not the national language and arguably never has been.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044599#Comment_120044599

So tell us, which LC subject were you deprived of, which would have changed your life, and you would be unable to learn the curriculum from scratch today in a few weeks if you really actually wanted to

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044603#Comment_120044603

People can learn Irish in a few weeks? I'd like to see proof of that.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044637#Comment_120044637

Hmm. Try reading the post again. You may even refer to the previous one above where I explicitly excluded languages when I brought up that point first

And please do feel free to make an attempt at answering the question rather than deflecting or avoiding it

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044643#Comment_120044643

It'd be nice if you could actually make a point that I can engage with instead of pretending languages can be fully learned in a few weeks.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044647#Comment_120044647

Nobody said that they could be. I explicitly excluded them above

You can keep avoiding the question or you can answer it. Up to you. If you don't want to tell us, then I'll assume there isn't one

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044581#Comment_120044581

It feels like you're going for moral highground as none of this addresses the iussue and trhe rest is just an eppeal to emotion.

You didn't defnne "being fundamental knowledge" - I'm assuming it's something that sounded good in your head but makes no sense when examined.

The rest of your arguments are absoultely nothing to do wih the csae for mandatory irish.

• Take the interested topic later in life - why should they? How is mandatory Irish in the best interests of the student here?
• Spare subjects is an excuse, not an argument. It doesn't address the issue .
• They have the option to do lower case Irish - so what? Same.
• We can't have an a la carte education system (so what?)
• People think they're special - (do they??) And if so, so what again?
• Studewnts have to learn things they'll never use again - bizarre argument to put forward as a positive in ANY education debate.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044923#Comment_120044923

Students are exposed to many things during their education. You are taught Irish to give you the exposure to it. That you don't like it or don't have the capacity to learn it, cannot be known until you do it. It is still important to get that exposure

But regardless, you can answer the question. What did you miss out on learning, due to having to sit for Irish, that you couldn't have learned anyway as an adult in a few weeks?

(As above, I excluded languages from that explicitly as I correctly anticipated some fluffy response along that lines)

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044212#Comment_120044212

It’s not in any way ridiculous, it’s a reasonable expectation given the numbers of students who study to become teachers in Ireland who are fully aware of the requirements for teaching in Catholic schools, in Ireland.

This discussion isn’t about whether or not religion should be compulsory in Irish schools so I’m not even going there, but the notion of specialist teaching in Irish requires that the person employed in the role is expected to be able to teach Irish, that’s not an unreasonable expectation either, and the fact is that teachers are already taught how to teach Irish in Irish schools, so we don’t need to employ people from the private sector to teach a subject which students already learn how to teach in teacher training colleges.

As for it being our first national language, what does make it a fact is that it’s written in the Irish Constitution. The fact that it’s only spoken regularly by about 2% of the population doesn’t detract from that fact. The fantastical notions are the idea of specialist Irish teachers and the idea that it’s not our first national language because it is only spoken regularly by 2% of the population and therefore it should no longer be mandatory because some people consider our national language irrelevant.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044266#Comment_120044266

The vast majority of people who have been educated to secondary level in Ireland have a rudimentary grasp of most things, it’s when they enter third level, if they choose to do so, that they specialise in any given area. That doesn’t negate the point or the importance of preparing children to do so as adults.

Also it IS our first national language, it’s not just mine, and while it comes across as arrogant on your part to assume what is and is not important in spite of it’s importance in our Irish Constitution and it’s part in our national identity, heritage and culture, I’m not going to suggest you’re behaving less like an adult and more like a teenager who imagines themselves to be the centre of their own universe, because that’s not particularly relevant to the question of whether or not Irish should remain a compulsory subject taught in Irish schools. It’s bigger than you or I when what we’re actually discussing is the importance of the Irish language to Ireland as a nation, and whether or not it is of such importance that it should remain a compulsory subject in Irish schools. The fact alone that it is our national language is sufficient, let alone that it is part of what denotes our national identity, heritage and culture.

The difficulty learning the language stems from the way it is taught in Irish schools - badly. If it were taught immersively, as any language should be learned, as well as it’s history and cultural context, there would be far less adults relieved to see the back of an modh coinníolach. It was suggested earlier, and it’s the proper way to learn any language (which is why students benefit enormously from their time in Gaeltacht areas), but the feasibility of doing so is, to be fair, a bit crackers! 😂 Not because it couldn’t be done, but because the Irish Government isn’t prepared to invest the sort of money and resources would be required to make such an idea a reality. As I pointed out earlier, they’re barely prepared to invest in education as it is, as though it’s coming directly from their own pockets, and not the public purse.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044930#Comment_120044930

Yeah - again - not untrue but doesn't actually address the issue of mandatory Irish and what you se eare benefits. I'm totally fine with exposure as I said in a post i nthe last page - have it mandatory for primary, but for leaving cert? They'll have done it for ten years and after ten years of not liking something, you pretty much KNOW.

Nor is about me - what makes you think what I think I missed out on is important in this debate? Why are you even mentioning this?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045263#Comment_120045263

The vast majority of people who have been educated to secondary level in Ireland have a rudimentary grasp of most things,

That is a seriously damning inditement of an education system who's purpose is, you put it, "to prepare children to contribute to Irish society as adults".

Being a first national language means nothing if not eeveryone sees it to same value. The Catholic Church used to have the same status and look at it now - no longer relvant to a large chunk of the populatoin. So to assume that everyon else should value somethin on the basis that YOU personally value it, is again, arrogant.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045477#Comment_120045477

Nor is about me - what makes you think what I think I missed out on is important in this debate? Why are you even mentioning this?

You have to explain to us what is lost by having people learn it? And balance that with what is gained. Not everyone is going to like it or excel at it. But that's the same with every subject. I don't see any real practical harm with it being kept. And that is coming from someone for whom it was my lowest grade in the Leaving which meant that I didn't use for my points. I had a couple of spare subjects. I don't see the harm in keeping it

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045483#Comment_120045483

No, I don't - you have to tell me what you think it gained by learning it.

If 50,000 students were tpo drop Irish after Junior Cert, they don't have to justify their reasons. Just as they don;t have to justify their reasons for dropping history or geography. Maybe they'd do art, or music, or GAA or take up French or German. Hell, maybe they'd form a heavy metal rock band and use the time to rehearse. I can't speak for them so I'm not going to pretend that I can.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045490#Comment_120045490

No but you can speak as to what you lost by having to do it. There is no point trying to pretend it is of some vague benefit to unidentified persons if you can't give examples of any relevance to yourself.

I've already explained the benefits. I learned a language. I learned poems and read stories and learned how to read it and write it and to speak it. Maybe not fluently but to a reasonable level.

Was it your own worst subject in terms of the all-powerful "points"? If not, what was, and why?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045499#Comment_120045499

I'm going to put in nali in this oncxe and for all: it doesn't matter. My experience is irrelevant. Your experience is irrelevant (althouh I'm happy it was positive). My leaving cert results are TOTALLY irrelevant.

Unless you can give me an argument as to why any of this is relevant, I'm not responding to this specifci argument.

Also, you still haven't given me a good resaon as to what benefit there is to the student who doesn't care for irish after ten years of leanring it not being given the option of dropping it in favour of a different subject they do enjoy and are better at.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045477#Comment_120045477

It’s not in the least bit a damning indictment of an education system, and the point I made was in relation to the purpose of an education, not the purpose of the Irish education system itself. I can think of several reasons to portray a damning indictment of the Irish education system, only one of which being the way Irish is taught in the vast majority of Irish schools. I exclude how Irish is taught in Irish schools where An Foras Pátrúnachta is the patron of the school, for obvious reasons.

A rudimentary education in most things as is provided by patrons of Irish schools is sufficient preparation for children to contribute to Irish society as adults, whether they choose to attend further education at third level, or choose to enter the labour force at that point, or choose not to enter the labour force and instead choose an alternative path in life; whatever their passion may be, at least they have a rudimentary education in preparation for doing so and contributing to Irish society as a consequence of receiving a formal education.

Being a first national language means exactly that if it’s recognised as being such within the Irish Constitution, regardless of anyone’s subjective opinion of its value to Irish society. I couldn’t care less how it sounds to you and whatever way you choose to portray it as sounding arrogant when you’re trying to portray me as being in any position to make decisions about the national curriculum. I’m only in a position where I can give my opinion on the importance of maintaining the Irish language as a mandatory subject in the Irish national curriculum.

Their parents or guardians can apply for an exemption for their children from being taught the Irish language in exceptional circumstances, but I wouldn’t suggest those parents who do so are arrogant for deciding what is or isn’t in the best interests of their own children’s education and personal development -

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/the_irish_education_system/exemption_from_irish.html

It is after all, a right which is again recognised in the Irish Constitution, regardless of anyone else’s personal feelings on the matter -

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3     1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

The State requires that all children receive a minimum standard of education, a standard which isn’t defined anywhere, but is determined subjectively on the basis of each and every child’s needs. The idea of a minimum standard of education is synonymous with the idea of a rudimentary, or basic education.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/the_irish_education_system/constitution_and_education.html

Emblematic

A lot of people are saying that instead of making it optional it should be taught better. I would propose that it is made both optional and, for those choosing to pursue it, taught better. In fact, making it optional would allow better focus resources to those that want it and would thereby better promote the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045535#Comment_120045535

Ridimentary means basic - after sixteen years in education we should strive for higher levels than "basic".

Your consitiution spiel doesn't challene my point: I'm not dismissing it. I said "Being a first national language means nothing if not eeveryone sees it to same value" - the bit in bold is the bit you missed. The constitutution is not a rule book nor a uide to what's important and what isn't to the individual. Nor is it immuteable. It can - and frequently has been - amended. So the argument "we should be learn it because it's the first langauge in the constitution" isn't relevant.

Incidently, it's not my first language. English is. Nor is part of my heritage, culture, history or anything else. And plenty of other people feelt he same way - so the idea of it being my anything just because it was written into the constitution of the idland I was born on just becuse of the word "first" is neither logical nor relevant. When you say "our" you attempt to speak for me without consulting me. That's arrogant.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045558#Comment_120045558

A rudimentary education in most things is all that’s required to enable children to function as adults in Irish society, which is all that’s provided by the public education system. If people want greater than a rudimentary education, then providing they have the means to do so, they are free to make that decision for their children. The State isn’t required to go above and beyond what is necessary, and they don’t, which is why there isn’t the public funds allocated to education that there should be in order to achieve the higher levels of education you aspire to. Providing access to further education at third level where those students with an interest in doing so can advance in their education to those higher levels where they may specialise in a particular academic field is about as good as it gets.

I wasn’t looking to challenge your point. The point I was making is that you don’t have one in the first place. That’s why I pointed out that regardless of anyone’s subjective opinions of it’s value, that doesn’t change the fact that it IS our first language, and when I use the word ‘our’, I’m referring to the people of Ireland, to whom the Irish Constitution applies, regardless of your rejection of that idea which you’re not actually entitled to do, apart from renouncing your citizenship, the Irish Constitution still very much applies to the people of Ireland and all people within its borders. Less of your freeman nonsense and accusations of arrogance for acknowledging that the Irish Constitution takes precedence over yours or my subjective opinions. The Constitution is very much a guide as to what’s important to Ireland as a nation, which is where the argument of the importance of the Irish language originates from in terms of our national identity, heritage and culture.

To that end, I’m just not interested in how you feel about being Irish or your first language or anything else which you as an individual imagine should be taken into consideration in determining whether or not our national language which is recognised as such by the Irish Constitution is of any importance to your 100,000 Leaving Certificate students, when the question is of much greater significance than only what you consider is of any value or importance… like that’s not the very definition of arrogance 🤨

I’m not going to suggest you’re being arrogant though, because that’s just silly, you’re as entitled to express your opinions as anyone else, insular and all as they may be when considering the value of the Irish language to Irish society, not just in terms of its value in the Leaving Certificate or as part of a rudimentary education which is provided to all with the objective of promoting not just our language, but our heritage and our culture. That you choose to reject that is entirely your own business, the State is not required to consult with you in the first place in terms of the value it places on our language, culture and heritage which it recognises by the status of the Irish language in our Constitution, much less the efforts of Government to promote and protect our language, heritage and culture. Goodness knows they do a piss poor job enough of that already with the miserable allocation of funding, resources and provisions aimed at doing just that.

One might even suggest their efforts, much like their attitude to the provision of a best in class public education system, are entirely rudimentary.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045577#Comment_120045577

 That’s why I pointed out that regardless of anyone’s subjective opinions of it’s value, that doesn’t change the fact that it IS our first language, and when I use the word ‘our’, I’m referring to the people of Ireland, to whom the Irish Constitution applies...

One of whom is me, and it's not my first language, so that's that myth dispelled. And don't tell me it means I can't do something I just did.

In any case, if your first useage of the term "it's our language" was purely in terms of the constitution, then it's an even weaker pro argument than if you did in terms of afinitiy.

To that end, I’m just not interested in how you feel about being Irish or your first language or anything else which you as an individual imagine should be taken into consideration in determining whether or not our national language which is recognised as such by the Irish Constitution is of any importance to your 100,000 Leaving Certificate students, when the question is of much greater significance than only what you consider is of any value or importance… like that’s not the very definition of arrogance 🤨

Good! Because it's getting annoying being constantly asked about my relationship with the Irish language when and I've said the exact opposite to this twice - once in the post you replied to: my personal relationsip with the language is not important. The individual student's personal relationship with the langauge is what's important. Read the posts you reply to aqnd stop posting lies.

...the value of the Irish language to Irish society, not just in terms of its value in the Leaving Certificate or as part of a rudimentary education which is provided to all with the objective of promoting not just our language, but our heritage and our culture

Again with the "our" - and this time you can't try and hide beind the constitution. You're blatantly trying to tell people that what's important to you should be important to everyone.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045604#Comment_120045604

There’s no myth dispelled by your declaration that Irish isn’t your first language, the fact is that it is OUR first language, and it is OUR national language. I have no interest in telling you that you can’t do something you just did, the Irish Constitution does that, with no reason to recognise your individual circumstances. You could be a Mexican immigrant for all I care and it still wouldn’t change the fact that Irish is recognised in the Irish Constitution as the first language of Ireland.

I’m reading the posts I’m responding to which is why I said you just don’t have a point, regardless of what you imagine is anyone’s personal relationship with the Irish language, wouldn’t matter if they were 100,000 Leaving Certificate students, or 100,000 Mexican immigrants, it wouldn’t change the fact that the State has an obligation to support, protect and promote the Irish language as part of Irish culture and heritage. Part of the means in which the State achieves this aim is by making the Irish language mandatory on the national curriculum in Irish schools. That’s why I said the Government are making a rudimentary effort, because that appears to be the extent of their commitment to the promotion and protection of Irish language, culture and heritage, apart from I suppose the odd bit of public funds they allocate to outsourcing their obligations to organisations which promote the Irish language, culture and heritage.

Again with the our because I’m not hiding behind anything, I’m being upfront with you about the States obligations, and the Governments obligation to promote the Irish language and culture and heritage, because of it’s importance to Ireland as a nation, not just to me, but to the Irish nation, consisting of it’s people, not just in the present, but in the past and well into the future. I’m certainly not going to beg you to be a part of anything you don’t want to be, and I’m not going to demand that you participate either. If you want to deprive people of the opportunity to participate in learning about their language, heritage and culture though, you’re going to have to come up with a far more compelling argument than because you reject it, everyone else should be deprived of what little opportunity they have to be taught their language, culture and heritage on the basis that you don’t think it’s important.

I understand the importance of maintaining the Irish language in the national curriculum, and I understand the importance of it being mandatory. You’re by no means alone in your failing to understand the importance of the Irish language (I’m sure there’s a few in Germany who fail to understand the importance of the German language too, or France French, or Italy Italian). Ireland operates on a similar principle, if it wasn’t for our Governments half-hearted approach to the promotion of Irish culture and heritage. But I would never suggest you just take my word for it. Here’s a former Irish school principal who doesn’t appear to understand why the teaching of the Irish language in Irish schools is mandatory -

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-04-26/958/

Personally speaking, I think Aodhán is a perfect example of those teachers we spoke of earlier who don’t know their arse from their elbow, the kind of teacher I wouldn’t want to employ if I were interviewing them. We may well have a shortage of good teachers, but that doesn’t mean we have to be so desperate as to employ anyone who hasn’t even a rudimentary grasp of the basics, in spite of all their years spent in education.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045625#Comment_120045625

You're tying yourself up in knots here - if you accept it's ours but not mine then you have obviously accepted that the individual can choose; which consequently nulifies your argument that it should be mandatory because it's "ours" - case closed on that point.

The state's obligation =/= mandatory leaving cert Irish. Case closed on this point.

It's not that I "fail to understnad anything" - I just disagree with you. You haven't stated a scientifically proven fact here. Not everyoine feels that tangtuage is important and nor should trhey. Again - stop claiming that it is or that they do. What YOU fail to understand is that it language being important is an opinion not fact,and that it is an opinion that lots of people disagree with.. And it being in the constitution is irrelevant: that doesn't make language important to everyone. And again - it is not an opinoin you have the right to force on anyone.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045630#Comment_120045630

It’s not case closed on the simply because you declare it to be so. You’re no doubt fully aware that the status of the Irish language in the Irish Constitution is what gives it its importance to the Irish nation. Nobody has to give a damn about your personal circumstances, and I certainly don’t.

I said that the means by which the State achieves its obligation to protect and promote the Irish language, heritage and culture is by making the Irish language mandatory on the national curriculum. That’s just a fact, that’s how they do it. There is no case closed there either.

I don’t give a fiddlers about having to prove scientific facts either, scientific facts have nothing to do with anything here. Your opinion that it’s being in the Irish Constitution is irrelevant is what means nothing, it’s there because of its importance to the Irish nation. What doesn’t matter is whether or not any individual thinks it is or isn’t important to them personally. If someone is of the opinion that the Irish language shouldn’t be mandatory in Irish schools, that doesn’t oblige anyone to take them seriously until they can come up with a reasonable argument in support of their opinion that it should be changed in accordance with their preferences. You’re not even within an asses roar of coming close to presenting a reasonable argument, and one based solely upon your own personal preferences isn’t going to cut it in order to effect change on a national scale.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045649#Comment_120045649

It's case closed because i proved your initial argument to be flawed. If you don't give a damn about my personal preferenmces why do you give a damn about other peoples?

The state can achieve it's goal in any number of ways. Mandatory Irish doesn't need to be one of them.

 Your opinion that it’s being in the Irish Constitution is irrelevant is what means nothing

Not my opinion. My opinion is that it being in the constitutaion AS FIRST LANGUAGE means nothing specifically in relation to his debate. My opinion is that individual preference trumps order of importance.

I have come up with a reasonable argument - I beleive that the students wit ten years experience are in a position to choose for themselves and should be allowed to - no one's countered this yet.

And for the FIFTH time now - my personal preferences aren't important! - STOP CLAIMING THAT THE ARE OR THAT I THINK THEY ARE!! !

(Sorry for the cpas, but fifth time really shouldnt be nssecary)

Count Dracula

I actually took more of an interest in Irish as a language after I left school. I was never good at picking it up, albeit I did get a pass in my Leaving. I was pretty crap at other languages also, so I don't think it is teachers at fault. In school I never found it relevant, it was never used by mates who went to Gaelscoil, they all were speaking as Bearla, gach maidin air an mbús, agus gach trathnona, sin a bhfuil.

There was a story in the leaving cert called m'asal Beag Dubh. If I remember correctly the small black Donkey lived somewhere out West and ended up getting sold at the market or something like it. That was it really? There was another, Duchasach Deireneach or something. A kind of cynical prose on how in the future we will all travel on escalators and be given number ID's rather than names. It kind of reminded me of the plot to Blade Runner - although that was years later when I made that connection. There was a Martín O'Direann poem called Coinnle Ar Lasadh ? About candles lighting in the window and been seen across for miles, I think on the Blaskets? I have spent winter nights in Dunquin and I kind of got the buzz, I mean it is bizarre to imagine people living with no electricity - but they did it all over the place 100 years ago.

I have learnt more Irish since I left school, it is actually everywhere you go. You can learn it sitting on public transport. It is spoken on the TV and radio every hour. What i can't help seeing through however is how manufactured it is? Like you hear this diatribe that somehow the language was annihilated though British invasion, that the Brits banned it from being spoken - or the funniest one that they burnt all the books in some library in town? The burnt library alluded to is most likely the state papers that went up in smoke during the occupation of the Four Courts during the civil war. But back to my point, I actually don't think the language has been at all relevant in Ireland since long before Cromwell or long before the Norman invasion. This is what irks me most, we are kind of force fed this mantra that we are speaking it before the evil Sasanach arrived, I just don't buy it.

I can get my head around its prevalence in the Gaeltacht. It must have been used as a trading language for fishermen and other sea farers. that is why it has so many links to the West of Scotland - they are the same language. It was at one point obviously used along those travel lines... which brings me immediately to Wales.

In Wales it is most definitely spoke along their west coast - certainly more than they would in Cardiff, Swansea or towards Glouscester, Shropshire etc. That being the case, how come nobody on the east coast of Ireland is speaking Welsh.. or at least a bit of it?

I reckon Welsh developed at different time to Irish, that might not be the whole story - but the fact remains that English thrived on our east coast - how come Welsh didn't?

So for me I do think as a language Irish has always been on pretty shaky ground. If it weren't for the Gaelic League and their strategy of promoting the language we may not be hearing it at all. It has definitely been used as a nationalist tool over the years. But I really and sincerely have my doubts about whether or not is ever was a relevant language across the country? In the West yes, it was used for sure - and still is. I mean it takes an hour to drive from Tralee to Dingle. 250 years ago at least 2-3 days to walk it and well over a day on horse back. Probably quicker in a sail boat - which for me is indicative of how the Teanga developed in isolated western areas and how it was communicated with across the water. It makes sense that the Dingle peninsuala has it's own language, it was never exposed to other languages.

So while I have no issue with it, or its' revival, I don't like the mantra that we were all yapping it across the country 1,000 years ago until Strongbow arrived.. no sale for me. The Bible was only translated to Irish I think around 420 years ago. Why not earlier? Somewhere between St Patrick and the reign of Elizabeth I there is little evidence of its' use, at all.

It has far more likely been a fringe language all along. I have no problem in learning it, but I do think the reason why it is so difficult to learn is that we knew far less than we admit to. That being the case, I think it is a shame that it is becoming more of a hindrance and a sticky subject , than being used to communicate at all.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045656#Comment_120045656

You did no such thing? I’m not referring to you personally or to any other individual when I say that the importance of the Irish language is recognised in the Irish Constitution as being our first language, or that it is recognised as the official language of Ireland or the Irish nation. There’s no tying myself up in knots there, all you need do is familiarise yourself with the Irish Constitution to understand that much for yourself, without any input from me whatsoever.

Certainly the State can achieve its aims in any number of ways, but that doesn’t negate the point that one of the ways in which it does support and promote the Irish language, heritage and culture is by making the Irish language mandatory on the national curriculum. It doesn’t HAVE to, but that doesn’t change the fact that’s exactly what it currently does.

Your point doesn’t need to be countered - it doesn’t matter what you believe, what matters is what you can prove, particularly if you’re suggesting that my opinion isn’t based upon scientific fact as though yours is based upon anything other than your own personal beliefs. Your point doesn’t need to be countered because the fact that it is their parents or guardians are recognised as being in a position to advocate on their children’s behalf for an exemption to being taught Irish, and they’re far more likely to succeed if they can provide the required evidence to support their application. How any child feels about the Irish language on the Irish national curriculum is completely irrelevant.

You’re arguing that individual preferences take precedence over the Irish Constitution, but your argument isn’t based upon anything more than your personal preferences, but at the same time your personal preferences aren’t important…

Nah, that can’t be it because it makes no sense whatsoever. On another day I’d be curious to explore just how far you imagine individual preferences take precedence over the Irish Constitution, but I think that’s enough Internet for me today!

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045686#Comment_120045686

This is conspiracy theorist level of logic. The first clue of the greater spread of Irish historically might be all the place names obviously derived from Irish throughout the country. You can also look up data from the 1901 and 1911 censuses to see how much wider the area it was spoken in was.

On the topic of compulsory Irish. If the only thing keeping the language alive is compulsion then it's not going to last. I would favour making a strong effort to reform the curriculum for non native speakers to move the focus onto speaking instead of poetry. People might feel more positive about the language then and the risk of everyone dropping it if was non compulsory would be lower.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045694#Comment_120045694

I most certainly did: the essence here is that you put patriotism (in the form of language) ahead of personal individual opinion whereas I say that the individual's rights to say for themselves what is and is not imporant to them is of more importance. Notice how you've stopped using the word "our" because you finally accept someone else's right to not value something.

You did counter the point when you said "how any child feels about the Irish language on the Irish national curriculum is completely irrelevant" and it is here that we find the crux of our disagreemeent.

Count Dracula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045719#Comment_120045719

So you are saying that after 100 years of state funded brain washing from the age of 4-18, that there are actually less Irish speakers in 2022 than in 1901?

Doesn't sound right at all.

You couldn't become a civil servant unless you could caint a cupla focal cheapim ar cuig noimead, there was no Irish oral for the civil service in 1901, or RTE. Or a newspaper as Gaelige?

How many Irish speakers were reading the news in Irish in 1901? Or before 1893? Was there even a daily edition as Gaelige , aon sort?

whisky_galore

It's always been optional for adults and they are not taking it up in anything like significant numbers.

That's what it's going to be like if it was optional for school children. Like adults, they simply won't be arsed learning something they dont see as being in any way useful.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045738#Comment_120045738

My understanding is that Gaeltacht areas have become smaller but the total number of people with a knowledge of Irish has increased.

I'm not sure what the rest of your point is about. There wasn't a requirement for Irish in the civil service when we were ruled by Britain and RTE didn't exist then either.

Conradh na Gaeilge had a newspaper at the end of the 1890s called An Claidheamh Soluis but I don't know it's circulation.

daheff

I definitely think Irish should be optional.

There are quite a few non Irish kids in schools these days compared to when we were kids (and in society in general).

Forcing Irish on these kids is unfair as many struggle even in English, not to mind learning Irish too. Added to this they have no help from parents at home as their parents know nothing of Irish. Feed this through to leaving cert and these kids are at a disadvantage in points race for college.

Force teaching Irish then excludes a lot of foreign teachers coming over to work here. We all see the teacher shortage now, and a lot of our younger teachers can go abroad to work, but not having Irish restricts a lot of people coming into the country to work in their place.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045763#Comment_120045763

I don't see the first part as a great argument. If they arrive as teenagers/older children they could be exempted from Irish without changing the mandatory Irish setup for others.

I agree that teachers who aren't teaching Irish shouldn't need to meet an Irish requirement though unless they are teaching in a Gaeltacht/gaeilscoil

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045734#Comment_120045734

I certainly don’t put patriotism ahead of personal individual opinion. I’ve already explained that the Irish Constitution does that already, without any reason to recognise or respect yours or my subjective opinion or without any long list of names of people who wish to be excluded from that narrative.

I didn’t notice I have stopped using the word ‘our’ either, I’ll use it when I’m referring to something which is ours, such as our national identity, our culture and our heritage, all of those being understood to refer to things which are Irish, which is to be imparted in Irish schools as part of receiving an education in Ireland as part of the Irish education system. It’s nothing to do with individuals rights to determine what is or isn’t important to them.

I have no issue whatsoever with parents who want to educate their children in accordance with the Steiner model of education, which would more closely align with your personal beliefs, I’m very much in favour of the idea of diversity in education to meet the needs of the nation’s children.

It’s the argument that the Irish language should not be mandatory on the Irish national curriculum that I have an issue with, which has nothing to do with parents choices for the education of their own children. If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re advocating that children should be able to decide for themselves how they wish to be educated, which just doesn’t work on a national scale as the resources required would make the provision for education prohibitively costly for the State, which is why it is only provided for on a small scale in a small number of schools around the country in schools which are deemed to be recognised schools which means they receive public funding on the basis that they teach the national curriculum, which includes the Irish language as a core subject. It’s less about patriotism, and more about the promotion of an Irish national identity.

Recognition of the importance of the Irish Constitution and how it takes precedence over individual preferences is an essential element of education and teaching children the importance of social responsibility as a means of contributing to Irish society, respecting the fact that other people don’t always agree with them and the Irish Constitution protects them as much as it limits them from inflicting their personal beliefs upon people who do not share their personal beliefs or values, but that’s more to do with civics and the fact that we live in a liberal democracy, much to some people’s annoyance, who would dearly love it if their personal beliefs took precedence over the Irish Constitution!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045520#Comment_120045520

Ah, you people are all the same. Make everything vague whenever a question is asked of you, or something is pointed out that clearly proves the illogicality your stance. Then try to avoid and deflect. Refuse to answer those questions but still happy to try to deflect by constantly asking your own.

Which I'm going to answer now. The benefits to the student are the same in principle whether they care for a subject or not. They are all learning, even though they won't all have the same outcome. If they are a smart kid, they will generally do well regardless of the subject (unless they decide to completely ignore it and just do pass or foundation level - as I pointed out above they are free to do without any practical consequences). If they are an idiot student, then they won't do well in it, but they wouldn't have done well in any other subject anyway.

No doubt you will continue refuse to answer the simple questions asked of you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045854#Comment_120045854

You did when you cited the constitution in defence of mandatory Irish.

 If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re advocating that children should be able to decide for themselves how they wish to be educated,

No - just in choosing what they study. The fact that they get to choose some subjects indicates that facilities and lack of trust aren't issues.

@Donald Trump - if you're going to begin a post with "you people are all the same...." then it's really just you going on a rant and pre-judging people rather than commenting and I'm not really interested in rants.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045916#Comment_120045916

You are the only one ranting here so quit with the attempted gaslighting

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045916#Comment_120045916

That’s not putting patriotism ahead of individual preference! The individual preferences you’re referring to are the preferences of children in terms of their education. In those circumstances it would be convenient for children if the Irish Constitution could be rendered irrelevant, it would certainly be more convenient to make your argument seem reasonable if children were recognised in Irish law as being capable of making those decisions for themselves.

But the Irish Constitution isn’t irrelevant, and as I pointed out already it is a guide for Irish society. And part of that is recognition of the rights of parents or guardians in the education of their children. What you’re attempting to argue is that children themselves as individuals should have that right in terms of the form of education available in Irish schools recognised by the State. One does not follow from the other.

Their choices in terms of the subjects available to them for study do not include the subjects which are considered core subjects of the Irish curriculum.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045991#Comment_120045991

What you’re attempting to argue is that children themselves as individuals should have that right

For the Leaving cert, yes.

in terms of the form of education available in Irish schools recognised by the State

Not sure what you mean here, but if you mean choosing their own subjects, then also yes.

At this point, it's up to you to tell me why you think this is a bad idea.