Should Irish be made optional at schools.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120054634#Comment_120054634

.My point is that how the Government promotes Irish is by making it a core subject of the curriculum at both primary and secondary level education. They promote the Irish language too in other ways like through Arts and Culture, but what you’re suggesting, is that they shouldn’t promote the Irish language by making the national language an optional subject in secondary level education.

Correct. Furtemore, I'd argue that making Irish a core subject does nothing to promote Irish.

I’m trying to make sense of how you think that’s supposed to promote the Irish language, and for the life of me I can’t, I just think you aren’t thinking this through. I don’t think you’re thinking at all about how your idea benefits the promotion of the Irish language. I’d understand if it was just a case of you don’t care, but I don’t think that’s the case because I know your head isn’t so far up your own ass that you aren’t aware the Governments obligation to promote the Irish language is more than just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children.

How is mandatory Leaving Cert Irish promoting the Irish language? And - just to be clear here - I'm not asking how it's supposed to, I'm asking how it does.

It's not about education of the nation's children, it's about - and you say this yourself - the promotion of the Irish language.; If's not even about children its about young adults.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055232#Comment_120055232

Correct. Furtemore, I'd argue that making Irish a core subject does nothing to promote Irish.

Argue it then, I’d love to hear the reasoning behind your argument.

How is mandatory Leaving Cert Irish promoting the Irish language? And - just to be clear here - I'm not asking how it's supposed to, I'm asking how it does.

It’s educating children in the national language by making it a core subject in the curriculum. Children aren’t required to sit the exam, but they are required to learn the language, unless they have been granted an exemption.

It's not about education of the nation's children, it's about - and you say this yourself - the promotion of the Irish language.; If's not even about children its about young adults.

What I actually said though, before you presented it out of context, was this -

Governments obligation to promote the Irish language is more than just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055304#Comment_120055304

Well, the obvious answer to the first is in the results: other than clubs and rural pockets, very few students go on to speak Irish on a regular basis. I think you may have agreed with me on this some time ago when you said the govenrment was failing in this specific avenue a few days ago? Could be wrong.

It’s educating children in the national language by making it a core subject in the curriculum. Children aren’t required to sit the exam, but they are required to learn the language, unless they have been granted an exemption.

I specifically asked how it DOES, not how it's supposed to. Technically, no one is required to actualy learn the language (if it was, te vast majoprity of us would be in trouble!) or sit the exam.

Unless if, by "educating": you mean :"show up" in which case the whole thing is just a bums-on-seats exercise.

Ultimately, you can bring the horse to water, as they say.

I'd also disagree with your last line on the basis it sound dangerously close to indoctrination. I'm all for - and always will be for - freedom of the individual as opposed to cultrual mandates of ANY sort.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055367#Comment_120055367

Well, the obvious answer to the first is in the results: other than clubs and rural pockets, very few students go on to speak Irish on a regular basis. I think you may have agreed with me on this some time ago when you said the govenrment was failing in this specific avenue a few days ago? Could be wrong.

It’s being a core subject on the curriculum is doing something to promote the Irish language then because it is is still used in clubs and rural pockets? The Government IS failing in this regard because it’s not doing enough in my opinion to promote and support the Irish language, as indicated by the fact that while very few students go on to speak Irish on a regular basis, surveys indicate that they still believe it should be mandatory on the curriculum at all levels -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/report-reveals-student-support-for-compulsory-irish-1.4510604

(might be behind a cookie wall, I’m not sure)

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40241693.html

But because successive Governments have failed miserably to address the issues with how the Irish language is taught (making it a core subject alone isn’t doing enough to promote it), we’re now seeing the effects of that in trying to recruit teachers to teach the subject -

Maths was reported to be the most difficult subject to fill positions for, a subject that is mandatory on the curriculum and for which a high grade is needed as a requirement for many third-level courses. Irish followed as the second most difficult subject to recruit for, hinting at a bleak future for our native language as students who may or may not have been a fan previously are now under pressure as they risk falling behind.

http://trinitynews.ie/2022/12/recent-tui-survey-highlights-potential-reasonings-behind-teacher-shortage-in-ireland-and-not-a-single-one-is-surprising/

Which is why I said this -

Governments obligation to promote the Irish language is more than just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055522#Comment_120055522

So.you agree with me on the first part.

I don't see how the rest of it furthers the argument. More teachers doesn't mean anything because they have ro follow the same syllabus. For the most part, they're doing the best they can.

So we're back to the two points inmade: it's all for appearances and to hell with freedom of the individual.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055547#Comment_120055547

So.you agree with me on the first part.

No I don’t agree with you on the first part. You said you’d argue that making Irish a core subject does nothing to promote Irish, and when I asked you to argue it, you told me that it was obvious from the results. I responded that making Irish a core subject isn’t doing enough. My point being that it should be maintained as a core subject, but change how the subject is taught.

You’ve yet to explain how making the Irish language an optional subject as opposed to a core subject in the curriculum constitutes promoting the Irish language in accordance with the Governments obligations to do so.

I’m not blaming teachers btw, it’s the Government’s responsibility to promote the Irish language, and I’m certainly not suggesting to hell with the freedom of the individual. I specifically made the point that it’s not just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children, meaning that there are more important factors involved than simply individuals freedoms, if you want to put it like that, if that’s the basis of your argument.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055685#Comment_120055685

What I meant and what we agree on is that mandatory irish is not working right now. Where we disagree is that it needs to be in the future,

Thre second paragrpah is a moot point because my stance is that student's personal education and freedom to choose what suits their goals and interests is more important than any govenmental obligations. So promotion is not my circus, as they say.

I know you're not blaming teachers and didn't mean to imply as such - I was just poining out that more doesn't nesecarily mean better.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055780#Comment_120055780

Making the subject optional won’t address the idea that it’s taught badly. It would just lead to a decline in students choosing to study it for the Senior cycle.

The second paragraph isn’t a moot point, you haven’t answered the question I asked. I’m aware it’s not your responsibility, I’m asking how does your suggestion that Irish be made optional fulfil the Constitutional obligation on the State to promote the Irish language. Obviously what’s important to you doesn’t override the Government’s Constitutional obligations to the people of Ireland!

Telling me that it’s obvious from the results, which are based upon past failures, doesn’t give me any indication of how a completely different approach is expected to work in the future, to promote the Irish language.

Telling me that’s not your problem is just avoiding the question completely. I already know it’s not your problem, I’m asking how your proposal serves the Government’s obligations to promote the Irish language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120055990#Comment_120055990

Making the subject optional won’t address the idea that it’s taught badly. It would just lead to a decline in students choosing to study it for the Senior cycle.

True,

The second paragraph isn’t a moot point, you haven’t answered the question I asked. I’m aware it’s not your responsibility, I’m asking how does your suggestion that Irish be made optional fulfil the Constitutional obligation on the State to promote the Irish language. Obviously what’s important to you doesn’t override the Government’s Constitutional obligations to the people of Ireland!

It's a moot point because it neihter backs up nor negates my position that students should choose for themselves based on their own goals and interests.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120000148#Comment_120000148

The reverse-syntax is cognitively demanding and this may be good for developing minds (not presenting this as a fact! but as a theory).

Should have been taught properly which it hasn't been for roughly 100 years.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056209#Comment_120056209

It’s not a moot point because it goes to the heart of your argument that Irish should be made an optional subject. You also stated that -

Furtemore, I'd argue that making Irish a core subject does nothing to promote Irish.

I was keen to hear your argument, it’s not a trick question and it’s hardly an unreasonable request to invite you to do so. That students should be able to choose for themselves is what comes after you’ve been able to successfully demonstrate that your proposal has any merit in the first place. “I don’t care” was never going to cut it, but obviously I’ve no choice but to accept that’s all the answer I’m going to get.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056274#Comment_120056274

I answered that: it does nothing to help or promote the useage of the Irish language - and in a lot of cases fosters resentment.

The reason I think Irish (along with eveyting else to be concistent) is because I believe the student should choose what they want to study based on their own goals and interests.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056295#Comment_120056295

That was your answer to the question of Irish being mandatory, but sure look I’ll take it as an answer to the question I asked because I think it’s all I’m going to get 😂

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056327#Comment_120056327

Care to close out by telliing me why you think letting trhe student drop Irish (or whatever) and choose something they're better at or more interested is a bad idea? For the student specifically?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056356#Comment_120056356

I don’t think it’s a bad idea at all, it’s an alternative form of education to formal education in an institutional setting, which works incredibly well for homeschooling, and I know a few people for whom it has been very beneficial in their circumstances. It’s an entirely different discussion though.

Barcley

I think it should remain compulsory but the way it's taught or at least was taught was a a disaster. The reality is that it's a second language for the vast majority of people and should be taught like a foreign language even though it isn't one. There's no point studying literature or poetry until students can hold an almost fluent conversation in the language. Also, something needs to be done to make students want to learn the language because trying to teach a language to people that don't really want to learn it is a waste of time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058343#Comment_120058343

While I agree with pretty much everything bar the first six words the question this kinda begs is: why would you want to force people to endure something you think is taught "is a disaster"?

Barcley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058383#Comment_120058383

That's a very good question but unfortunately I don't have a good answer. Firstly I think everyone should have to learn Irish as it's a big part of our history and culture, what's more, it's one of the two official languages of the country. Even if the teaching of Irish is a disaster, as it has been since the foundation of the state, we should still teach it to everyone. However, I do believe that it's possible to improve the way it's taught, for example, I learned French as an adult and all classes were exclusively in French and 75% of the time was spent in conversation and it was very effective compared to the way I learned Irish in primary and secondary school.

French Toast

Curriculum in 2nd level is hateful and most teachers will agree the recent overhaul to the Junior Cert has been a step backwards for Irish.

Make it optional after the Junior Cert and let it sink or swim on it's own merit. Fúck it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058414#Comment_120058414

Therein lies the problem - if everyone as to do it, why improve it? There's no motive.

I've no problem with it being taught for primary school kids. Give them a taste of it. After that, let them decided. As I said to Jack, I dislike the use of the word "our" on the basis that it's a big mistake to assume everyone feels a connection with history or heritage. You may say that's sad, but it's not a crime and doesn't make you a bad person.

In any case, after 5-10 years, they'll have had their heri8tage and history - up to them if they want to keep at it. Forcing them to keep doing it when they don't like or need it and the level of syllabus is poor is something I just don't get.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058414#Comment_120058414

How is Irish a big part of our history and culture beyond having a long history of failing to revive it. Irish has not played a significant part in Irish peoples lives for probably 150 years and being able to speak Irish has not defined an Irish person for at least that long.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058436#Comment_120058436

If you remove the requirement to learn Irish in secondary school you’d need to revise the teaching of English to include a very strong emphasis on grammar because we currently rely on Irish to teach grammar.

From what I see here in Switzerland, Americans and Brits who struggle to learn the local language do so because they don’t have the English grammar and usually find the whole thing too complicated and give up.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058414#Comment_120058414

Maybe that was because the French class was about teaching a language (and to people who wanted to be there) rather than using it to push an agenda about a history and a culture very few Irish people today can identify with

The mad thing is that the study of actual history as a subject is optional!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058436#Comment_120058436

As I said to Jack, I dislike the use of the word "our" on the basis that it's a big mistake to assume everyone feels a connection with history or heritage.

Just by way of cleaning up any misunderstanding - the assumption that everyone feels a connection with history or heritage isn’t the basis upon which I refer to the Irish language as our national language. I refer to the Irish language that way because it exists independently of however anyone feels about it one way or the other, regardless of how many people do or don’t speak it. It remains the national language of Ireland, and is intrinsically embedded in Irish culture and heritage in the same way as Shelta for example is the language of Irish travellers - it is embedded in their culture and heritage.

Regardless of however people feel about the language or the utility of it being taught at any level in Irish schools, that’s the reason why it is taught, and will continue to be taught, regardless of however the majority of adults who have been taught in the Irish education system feel about the importance or lack thereof, of the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092580#Comment_120092580

Fair enough, but that's still not a good basis on which to assume what's best for individuals

spookwoman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058436#Comment_120058436

Totally agree. I have absolutly no interest in Irish language, history or culture. I rather listen to someone running their nails down a blackboard than listen to diddly eye music. I feel many rely on "history" to make excuses for many things, most often bad behavior and violence. I hated Irish language in school and refused to do it in the leaving cert and to this day I don't have any use for it. I liked Irish art history but again really disliked History as a standard subject. I rather have spent my Irish and religious class time learning something that I could use and was of interest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058520#Comment_120058520

I don't remember them using Irish when teaching me english grammer. I don't know how they could do that when most kids know only english when they start school.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092638#Comment_120092638

There’s no assuming what’s best for individuals in anything, certainly not in a formal education setting. The provision exists for parents at an individual level to apply for an exemption on behalf of their child or children from Irish language classes.

Hotblack Desiato

Only under very specific circumstances as you well know.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092731#Comment_120092731

There most certainly is - or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The exemption is bullshit - it should be the default. Opt in, not opt out.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092740#Comment_120092740

We’re having this conversation because we have a difference of opinion over whether or not there is an assumption of what’s best for individuals in a formal education setting.

If such an assumption did exist, then indeed opting in would be the default. This should make it clear that the assumption just doesn’t exist, which is why the provision to apply for an exemption exists.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092743#Comment_120092743

That makes mo semse: iif such an assumption [that the state knows what's best for the individual] exists, then opting in would be default...?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094088#Comment_120094088

I figured if you’re of the opinion that it should be opt-in, that in your opinion is what’s best for the individual. The State doesn’t even consider that possibility, it can’t, because the State is more concerned with the common good of Irish society. It does this through social policies such as making Irish a compulsory subject in primary and secondary education, and at the same time it recognises the Family as children’s primary educator, so it allows parents or guardians who qualify, to apply for an exemption to permit their children to be excused.

Obviously in your opinion the current situation shouldn’t exist, and opting in to learning the Irish language should be the default, and if that existed, there wouldn’t be any need for the provision of an exemption in education policy with regard to the Irish language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094294#Comment_120094294

That is either a very poor explanation, or I'm right...?

The greater good isn't relevant and the family as primary educator is contradictory at best and completely hypocritical at worst (state is trumping family as primary educator) and all.of it is unnecessary and bloated.

Or

The primary good is assuming what's best for the student and denying the opt in and your previous post makes no sense.

How is denying the opt-in NOT assuming what's best for the student?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094358#Comment_120094358

It’s a poor explanation in that case, and given what you’ve written above, I’m convinced I’m not going to be able to articulate the point in a way that you’ll understand. There’s no gotcha or anything else, the point is that the State isn’t interested in the individual needs of each and every individual student, it leaves that to their parents or guardians.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094415#Comment_120094415

Well thanks for that condescending remark...

It's not a gotcha, it's more of a QED.

The State is not interested in the needs of the of the individual student - my point entirely - but it doesnt defer to patents because excemptuons are only given in specific circumstances and not granted automatically.

The State has no more interest in letting the parents choose than it has in letting the student choose, point clearly proven. Bringing up parents is a complete red herring - State doesn't give a flying **** about them either (and yes, is in violation of the all holy constitution).

I'm leaving now - no interest in debating with someone who tells me I'm effectively too thick to understand a point that is clearly erroneous in the first place.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058343#Comment_120058343

So you split Irish into two subjects at LC level. 1 subject is Irish Language - taught mostly like French/German - conversational, day to day. If you are going to look at texts - then newspapers etc. Keep that one compulsory. Other subject is Irish Literature - closer to the English curriculum - literature, poetry etc - optional for those who like/are good at Irish.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094511#Comment_120094511

Well thanks for that condescending remark...

Jaysis PB I dunno what way you’re reading my posts, but there was no intent to be condescending. I was acknowledging the fact that it IS my fault that I can’t articulate the point any better in a way that you would understand where I’m coming from. You said it was a poor explanation, and I figured “fair enough, I can’t do any better”.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094667#Comment_120094667

I’m convinced I’m not going to be able to articulate the point in a way that you’ll understand

That's condescending.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094708#Comment_120094708

It’s not, it’s stating a fact about myself, that based upon your post, I’m convinced I’m not able to articulate the point in a way you’ll understand. You have to admit it’s not for the want of trying, I have tried, and you still maintain your position which is in direct conflict with mine. That’s my fault for being unable to articulate my point in a way you’d get it. You’ve clearly not gotten it so far in spite of my numerous previous efforts, so do I keep going, expecting the result to be any different, or do I say fair enough?

Accepting that I’m not going to be able to do something is the more rational and reasonable course of action at this point.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092665#Comment_120092665

To translate to Irish from English you need to know English grammar.... In the angloshpere world they don't spend much time dealing with grammar, so when such individuals end up here in Switzerland where we have four national languages they struggle to learn any of them because they have little or know understanding of grammar. Telling someone that they need to use the dative case in German because it is in the dative case in English for example will get you blank looks so you end up having to explain the English first.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094415#Comment_120094415

That's because your point is nonsense!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094415#Comment_120094415

Except it doesn't leave it to their parents or guardians, because Irish is compulsory. Your posts are making no sense whatsoever (yet being extremely condescending at the same time - that combination is quite special)

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094827#Comment_120094827

I can honestly say that 13 years of learning Irish didn't help me a damn with English, French or German grammar.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095481#Comment_120095481

It does leave the education of their children to parents or guardians, and the fact that Irish is compulsory in Irish schools has no bearing on that fact. Parents or guardians are not obligated to enrol their children in Irish schools. The State only requires that children acquire a minimum standard of education. Whether children are meeting that standard is determined by Tusla, acting on behalf of the State.

Schools and the delivery of the national curriculum are an entirely separate matter, where the State does not have any specific interest in each and every individual student in the way Princess is trying to make out it does in terms of the Irish education system. I don’t know how to better explain that to them. It doesn’t mean the point is nonsense, it means that any further attempts to explain are futile and just not worth the effort.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095620#Comment_120095620

Your post sounds like a politician dodging a question. The fact is the state forces teenagers to study Irish for the LC, the state has decided they know better than Parents when it comes to learning Irish.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092743#Comment_120092743

The exemption isn't just a matter of applying for one. You need to demonstrate that the person the exemption is requested for has both learning and language difficulties. This "Opt out," isn't available for everyone who would rather not do it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095760#Comment_120095760

That’s not a fact, because the State doesn’t decide they know better than parents when it comes to learning Irish. In order for that to happen, they’d have to care about every parents ability to educate their own children, and they don’t.

That’s not a politician’s answer either, a politician, especially one in Government, would want you to believe that the State cares deeply about your children’s education. If you’ve ever had any reason to question that idea, you find out very quickly how much the State doesn’t care about any children’s education.

Hotblack Desiato

Oh ffs this is getting even worse and you are not engaging with the posters responding to you, you are just waffling.

True, the very few who are willing and able to homeschool can have their kids avoid Irish (although, not if they ever might want to attend NUI... 🙄 ) Homeschooling is completely and utterly irrelevant to 99% of parents, it is simply not an option.

You were going on and on about the constitution earlier despite it saying nothing about compulsory Irish in education (and not mentioning secondary education at all!).

The constitution does indeed state that parents are the primary educators of their children yet denies parents a choice over whether their children study Irish or not.

This is a violation of the constitutional rights of parents. They should be able to opt their child out of any subject.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094827#Comment_120094827

I've noticed this: people who have learnt English as a second language have better grammatical understanding than native English speakers. But my understanding is that you get this from learning ANY language as a a second language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095853#Comment_120095853

It does., because they can overrule the parents applying for an excemption. It's not automatic.