Should Irish be made optional at schools.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096781#Comment_120096781

The State (which is what I assume you’re referring to), doesn’t have any involvement in the decision? The extent of any involvement from the Minister for Education (as opposed to the State), is that they maintain a panel for the appeals process, which constitutes the Irish Exemptions Appeals Committee.

That could only happen if the school rejects the parents application, because the parents apply to the school for an exemption, and it’s the school makes any initial decision -

1. A parent/guardian must make an application in writing to the principal of the school for a Certificate of Exemption from the study of Irish on behalf of a pupil.

…

Where the application for exemption from the study of Irish is refused, an applicant can appeal the school’s decision to the Irish Exemptions Appeals Committee (IEAC). The IEAC will comprise three persons who shall be selected from a panel of persons established and maintained by the Minister, having regard to the need for each IEAC to have available to it: 

• Experience and skills in the provision of or inspection of special education in schools

• Experience and skills in the area of educational psychology and/or child and adolescent wellbeing and mental health 

• Experience and skills in the leadership and administration of schools

• Experience and skills in the initial or continuing education of teachers of pupils with special educational needs. 

The IEAC will make a decision on whether the exemption should be granted or not, inform the school of the decision and require the school to give effect to their decision. In making a decision the IEAC will consider the decision of the school and the grounds given for refusing the application, the criteria set out in this Circular and any supporting documentation that was available to the school, contained in the Student Support Plan(s) and any supplementary information provided to the school by the applicant. The appeal should be made on the appropriate form published on the Department’s website. 

The appeal must be lodged within 30 calendar days from the date of the written decision of the school not to grant an exemption was notified in writing to the applicant.

https://assets.gov.ie/232777/c56982eb-0688-4341-927a-259269c9e5c1.docx

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096700#Comment_120096700

Oh ffs this is getting even worse and you are not engaging with the posters responding to you, you are just waffling.

…

This is a violation of the constitutional rights of parents. They should be able to opt their child out of any subject.

How would you like me to respond to that bullshìt?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096887#Comment_120096887

And who has decided that you need to.apply for an exemption in the first place...?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096970#Comment_120096970

The Minister for Education. It’s right there in the circular I linked to in the previous post -

As the first official language in Ireland, and for fundamental cultural and historical reasons which are inextricably linked to Irish identity, the study of the Irish language is a key aspect of the learning experiences that are considered appropriate for pupils in recognised schools in Ireland. For these reasons, Irish is a core subject in the curriculum determined by the Minister for recognised Irish schools.

…

The policy of the Department of Education is to provide for the inclusive education of children with special educational needs in mainstream education, other than in circumstances where it would not be in the best interest of the child, or the effective education of children with whom they are to be educated.  In line with the Department’s policy schools are expected and encouraged to provide all pupils, to the greatest extent possible and in a meaningful way, with opportunities to participate in Irish language and cultural activities at a level appropriate to their learning needs.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096893#Comment_120096893

That's a bit rich to say the least.

So what exactly is bullshit about saying that parents, as the primary educators of their children, should be able to opt them out of any subject?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096993#Comment_120096993

The Minister for Education. Y'know, that person who controls education on behalf of the STATE

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096993#Comment_120096993

So, state trumps patents case closed, good night.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096997#Comment_120096997

It was this bit I was referring to -

This is a violation of the constitutional rights of parents.

The States acknowledgement of the Family as the primary and natural educator of the child doesn’t extend to parents having the authority to dictate how schools shall manage their affairs.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097007#Comment_120097007

No, the State does not trump parents, it’s not case closed at all, and your effort to point score certainly doesn’t support your contention that the State has any regard for the individual students education at the level you’re attempting to reach for in Irish schools.

The State only requires that children receive a minimum standard of education. How parents or guardians achieve this, is entirely up to them. They are not obligated to enrol their children in schools recognised by the State, and the State has no involvement in whether or not any individual student shall be exempted from learning Irish.

JP Liz V1

Isn't subjects thought in Irish in Gaelscoil

I would be keep in until after JC then give students the choice option for LC

I'd love to be fluent in it, I saw a 4 year on a Galway train conversing in Irish with her family, I was amazed in awe

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097030#Comment_120097030

Of course it's case closed - unless you can give a viable option to state schools or convince me thst he minister for education is not working for the State.

Its all.smoke and mirrors with you. Isn't it?

If the parents decide, as the primary educator ofctheir child, that it is in said child's best interests to be educated in a state school for their leaving cert but not learn irish, and the State refuses to comply it is trumping the parent.

The State is there to serve, not to dictate.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097015#Comment_120097015

It is in no way dictating how schools shall manage their affairs.

My kids are opted out of religion. It in no way affects how the schools manage their affairs.

Your posts are getting sillier and sillier.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097000#Comment_120097000

No, the Minister for Education doesn’t control education on behalf of the State, they control the Department of Education on behalf of Government.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097042#Comment_120097042

No, there’s no smoke and mirrors, I’ve been telling you straight out that you just don’t have an argument. I don’t have to give you anything, nor do I have to convince you of anything. Frankly you’re not even at the races with the nonsense you’re coming out with, but that’s ok because it simply means that the position of the Department of Education in relation to the status of the Irish language on the national curriculum isn’t under threat any time soon.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097064#Comment_120097064

Your children being able to opt out of religion has nothing to do with how schools manage their affairs. Put the goalposts back where they were and explain how this is a violation of parents rights -

The constitution does indeed state that parents are the primary educators of their children yet denies parents a choice over whether their children study Irish or not.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097069#Comment_120097069

No, the Minister for Education doesn’t control education on behalf of the State, they control the Department of Education on behalf of Government.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but: what's the difference between "on behalf of the State" and "on behalf of the Government"?

No, there’s no smoke and mirrors, I’ve been telling you straight out that you just don’t have an argument. I don’t have to give you anything, nor do I have to convince you of anything. Frankly you’re not even at the races with the nonsense you’re coming out with, but that’s ok because it simply means that the position of the Department of Education in relation to the status of the Irish language on the national curriculum isn’t under threat any time soon.

You realise that that entire paragraph is an ad homeinem, right? Not one part of it attacks my argument, it entirely condescends to me personally. Second time you've done that today.

Your entire argument is a Hobson's Choice fallacy and this proves you can't defend it.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097079#Comment_120097079

It denies them their right, as the primary educators of their children, to decide which subjects they study.

Don't accuse others of moving goalposts when it's you which is coming out with all sorts of irrelevant nonsense.

You might explain what the supposed "consequences for the management of the school" are if opting out of Irish and why this does not apply if opting out of religion as is increasingly commonly done?

swimming in a sea

Hi, just reading thread and a lot of times people are saying Irish is compulsory, what does that mean?

I did the LC in the 90's and opted out of Irish, I wasn't allowed to by the school but I just didn't go to it after junior cert. I did the the LC and went to University in Ireland(my choice was reduced) I presume my LC is valid.

friendlyfun

I think there needs to be more opportunities for immersion in the language rather than rote-learning picture stories.

Fugded

If it was approached correctly in primary then most would keep in on at secondary level even if it was optional. Let's face it, it's a much easier subject than English......when someone is fluent or close to fluent.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102012#Comment_120102012

Someone mentioned that some time ago and I always wondered about it: the keys to cell are just sitting there, but no one's willing to use them. Wish I'd had the same idea.

Did your school accomodate you by providing tuition in an alternate suject, or did you just get into university on the stregt of six subjects?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102154#Comment_120102154

I've always wondered wny the powers that be have never actually considered that route - shows the level of ignorance and arrogance in the admin of educational Irish. But then, if ipeople have to do it, where's the incentive to improve?

My take is that they aren't actually conerned about the language, just the status of the language.

swimming in a sea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102524#Comment_120102524

No school didn't accommodate it, I took it on myself to head to the library when Irish started. At first the teachers marched me back to class but after a while they gave up.

I decided i was better off concentrating on 6 subjects only applying to courses in DCU/UL as they didn't require Irish, so limited my choice. So the opposite of what a guidance councilor would say, but even doing Irish always put me in a bad mood for the rest of that day and when i stopped doing it my other subjects came on a lot.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101319#Comment_120101319

This is what I meant when I said that the States acknowledgement of the Family as the primary educator of children, doesn’t extend to parents having the right to tell schools how to manage their affairs. Parents, as the primary educators of their own children, are free to provide this education themselves, OR in schools which receive public funding. That right doesn’t extend to parents having the authority to decide what subjects their children study in publicly funded schools.

The right of children to attend publicly funded schools without attending religious instruction, exists independently of that, and has nothing to do with a right which neither children nor their parents have, to decide what subjects they study in publicly funded schools. That’s why I said you were moving the goalposts telling me your children are opted out of religion. That has nothing to do with anything.

rob316

Its a tough language to learn IMO, I took to French and Spanish after school much easier. I actually think the quality of fluency would improve if it was optional than just everyone learning a few cupla focal.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103738#Comment_120103738

Nope, still wrong

https://assets.gov.ie/132103/f10eb5b6-fb2c-4dc9-bcc8-6d7c33e8b973.pdf

Section 19

The school principal must follow the procedures set out in the Circulars and in the Guidelines when considering an application for an exemption.

Furtermore, your claim here that

Parents, as the primary educators of their own children, are free to provide this education themselves, OR in schools which receive public funding. That right doesn’t extend to parents having the authority to decide what subjects their children study in publicly funded schools.

is slso wrong as this doesn't even mean that they can exempt their child from Irish. State department of education STILL tumps the parentrs.

Section 22

... A pupil/student who is home-schooled or enrolled in a school which is not recognised cannot therefore be granted an exemption from the study of Irish under the terms of these circulars

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120105592#Comment_120105592

I can’t understand what you’re saying here, but it looks like you’re clutching at straws which have nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Flinty997

I used to think Irish should be kept for cultural reasons. But I don't anymore. The majority (teachers and students) aren't interested. Too many who teach it are like fanatics from Sparta. They take no prisoner's, kill their wounded. They leave behind them a trail of broken and miserable students, for whom Irish is their most hated subject.

Parent Teacher meetings with kids teachers only reinforce this for me. Other than a couple of teachers, who managed to keep everyone engage and improving, and liking the subject, universally liked. The rest of the Irish teachers I've had interactions with I've instantly disliked, and been proved right by their subsequent behaviour.

As others have said it seems to rush into prose, poetry before people are in any comfortable with the language. I actually liked what books we covered. But I was a passenger for much of it, replying on English translation, while my teachers taught entirely in Irish.

jiminho

Haven’t read through the previous posts but I’d consider the following:

1) Make it optional after JC. Boggles my mind why it’s still compulsory for LC

2) More focus on the oral and aural aspect in primary school i.e learning how to speak the language.

Strumms

the last time I spoke Irish, or had a necessity to engage with Irish was the day I had my Irish leaving cert exam.

I studied it, learned it…for 13 years… from junior infants, to sixth year. From the day I left school at 18…. I was never impacted by any situation, not for a fraction of one second, where..

1) I needed to know, understand something in Irish

2) I needed to converse with someone in Irish.

the vast vast majority of people it’s the same. Political gamesmanship is the sole reason it’s taught.

Not having it as an optional subject is farcical beyond description and an abominable waste of time for the majority of students.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185231#Comment_120185231

It's taught because it's part of Irish culture and was persecuted to extinction. But that's no excuse for how its taught today.

babyducklings1

We should keep it ( after all it was our main language before the famine ) but then went into decline. . But we need to make it more attractive for young people and for everyone.

More real life actual areas where it is spoken, streets, etc. make it part of real life. I don’t think it’s that hard a language to learn especially since we’ve been doing it since we were five, the problem is we don’t speak it and we have no national pride in it , like a poor relation really! Kids do pick it up but then they have no where to use it ???

_CreeD_

Language is a tool. When the tool no longer fits you don't fix it by deliberately trying to make more of the things it does you just use the tool that fits now. It being spoken in the past isn't a justification for using it now. As for our culture and history why is that better kept in a language almost no one in our own country speaks let alone the rest of the world, translate what you treasure and want to preserve and move on.

I do believe it should be available as optional only. And certainly not a requirement for college courses that have nothing to do with it, if that's still a thing. While quite a while ago now I was not able to get into Physics in Trinity because I only had pass Irish, more than enough in everything else, that was just nuts.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185397#Comment_120185397

I'm not sure that just because something mostly only exists in Ireland that's a reason to let it disappear.

We just shouldn't be forced into it. Carrot not the stick.

_CreeD_

I didn't say to let it disappear but rather make it optional. In practical terms people typically learn other languages for business (esp. if you are not a native English speaker) or because they are moving to or spending enough time in a country that doesn't speak their current to justify it. Neither of these apply for Irish so to me it's essentially a cultural topic akin to Art, the fact that I see it as impractical doesn't mean I don't respect their right to a choice. But kids should not be forced to sacrifice valuable education time in other areas because of it.

Flinty997

Is there an equivalent to Peig or An Tóraíocht when you learn German?

The reason you learn Irish is not the same reason you learn a language for business. It's a false equivalence.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185295#Comment_120185295

It's not part of Irish culture, though. It hasn't been for several decades.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186643#Comment_120186643

Sorry what? There's an expiry date on culture?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186768#Comment_120186768

More of an evolution date. Cultures evolve, people move on, traditions cease to serve their intended purpose.

Not saying that's the case with the language, but it depends on what your definition of 'culture' is.

Flinty997

Even they fall out of use they are part of the culture. What happens today is built on the past. Even if you are unaware of it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186926#Comment_120186926

The Irish language was part of Irish culture. It is not now nor has it been for quite a long time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186926#Comment_120186926

I would disagree - for me, to be cultural something should at least have a presence. And I don't see anything which today fits the discription of 'built upon'. The educatrion system itself is very much an exercise in continuity rather than expansion.

And that's before we get to the useof 'our' and the issue of individuality v conformity.

It's fairly obvious when you've the majority of the population coming out of school, having studied Irish (quite heavily) for 14 years and generally being unable to understand enough of it to even follow a news story on TV, there's something profoundly wrong with how it's been taught.

What we are doing at the moment isn't preserving the language. It's turned the current approach to Irish teaching into a sacred cow that cannot be analysed and there's obviously an entire profession that are not going to want to be reduced to teaching conversational classes and trad music, if we went to a more cultural and fun approach.

So we're somewhat stuck...

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186963#Comment_120186963

What's particularly galling is that Europe is littered with success stories and many countries now have bilingual populations able to speak their own language, English and maybe even one or two more. Ireland just decided to fund the Irish language lobby's lavish lifestyles.

The issue is they aren't littered with examples of a language that pretty much died or at least came very close to it, and one that exists in a massive media and global bubble language like English. It's very hard to find a context to actually use Irish and things like translating bureaucracy into Irish doesn't really create that either. You get examples in Europe of bilingual and tri-lingualism, but mostly it's in border regions where you've multiple language which are in very active use - e.g. Belgium (French, Flemish and German) or the alpine regions where you get interplay between several languages etc.

You've also got countries and regions where the language is the key identifier. That's a big deal on the continent but it's also a big deal in Wales because it's often what really marks it out as not being just accidentally merged into England.

Ireland's quite geographically distinct and hard to confuse. It's extremely well branded up culturally and has very much made its own of English too. It's hard to not notice Irish culture and it's very identifiable in a global context, particularly in the anglophone bubble and European context we're mostly interacting with. Scotland's similarly very identifiable and also similarly struggles to reinvigorate Gàidhlig.

I'm not saying it's a lost cause, but I think we need to perhaps think about what the cause actually is. We aren't going to somehow recreate (or create) a primarily Irish speaking society just because it's someone's dream, but we could certainly improve funding for things like language and cultural activities and really have some fun doing it and make the language thrive where it can thrive naturally.

I'd rather see people coming out of school having enjoyed Irish, knowing a bit of the cultural context of it and enjoying using a cúpla focail, being able to use it more conversationally and having some kind of fun with it, rather than so many having seen it as a burden for 14 years.

Teaching Irish the way it's being taught has basically turned it into some kind of exercise in mental gymnastics, like learning Latin. The effort should have been put into things like helping to ensure there's a vibrant context to use it.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186926#Comment_120186926

Plenty of things fall out of use or become extinct, and no one dies as a result. Because more often than not, no one wants to partake in them anymore.

A thatched cottage was once an everyday part of our culture, but not many would want to actually live in one nowadays.

I had ear problems (resolved now) but I was quite hard of hearing in primary school and in the first couple of years of secondary school and probably should have had exemptions but was heavily pushed away from them by my teachers and really, really struggled with Irish. I nearly failed it in the Leaving despite grinds and going got to the Gaeltacht and all of that.

In general I found the teachers extremely unhelpful and quite aggressive about making sure I didn't get an exemption. They hadn't a clue how challenging it was. Only accommodation I got was they used to put me closer to the speaker during those listening comprehension tests.

The main Irish teacher I had used to throw dusters at me and call me an amadan or a gligeen.

I ended up getting just about the passing grade I needed to get into university on the ordinary level paper.

Basically had I not got the grade, I would have been emigrating to the UK to go to university which is nuts when you think about it, as I had pretty high grades in the other subjects that were actually relevant to the course I was doing!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186961#Comment_120186961

The Irish version English was very much influenced by Irish. But since around 1990 English in Ireland has became Americanized. History is part of culture. Translated Songs, poems, stories, are not the same thing at all.

Irish didn't decline because of disinterest. It was deliberately driven out. This didn't happen in other European countries, which why their languages survived.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187202#Comment_120187202

None of this really challenges my point: the individual chooses what is important to them,

Nor is the history relevant - what's relevant is what's happening now

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187202#Comment_120187202

It wasn't. English was the language of the oppressing occupier but also the language of trade, commerce and progress. Things like the famine and emigration didn't help of course.

_CreeD_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186571#Comment_120186571

...Re-read the post, that's exactly what I said...

And Peig, christ the horror 😉 (not to mention why would you think there aren't equivalent works in every language 🤔)