6N Tournament 2018 (non-Irish TT)

7oakse

7oakse wrote: »

Anyone know when the English team is being named?

13:00

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

Well, I'd have Navidi as the Welsh player of the tournament, to be honest.

he was pretty much ineffectual against us to be honest.

I honest think its his hair that makes him remarkable during a game, but doing unremarkable things.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

he was pretty much ineffectual against us to be honest.

I honest think its his hair that makes him remarkable during a game, but doing unremarkable things.

Didn't he have two try assists against us?

All the backrow's we've met so far have struggled against the cohesion of Ireland at the breakdown, I wouldn't necessarily hold that against Navidi. I thought he went well this tournament to be honest.

Buer

A lot of honesty in these posts, to be honest.

Bridge93

7 changes for England

Starting XV

15 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 32 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 33 caps), 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 39 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 12 caps), 11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 17 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens 57 caps), 9 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 30 caps), 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 48 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 92 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins 9 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens 18 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens 24 caps), 6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 63 caps), 7 James Haskell (Wasps 76 caps), 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps).

Finishers
16 Jamie George (Saracens 24 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 55 caps), 18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 81 caps), 19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 51 caps), 20 Don Armand (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins 80 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 44 caps), 23 Mike Brown (Harlequins 68 caps).

prawnsambo

Wigglesworth at scrum half. Not sure that's a positive for them tbh.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't he have two try assists against us?

All the backrow's we've met so far have struggled against the cohesion of Ireland at the breakdown, I wouldn't necessarily hold that against Navidi. I thought he went well this tournament to be honest.

not an indication of him being overtly good in the game really though.

to be fair, i have said previously that whens hes on his game hes a good player. However I havent seen anything really in this years competition to mark him as one of wales better players. Id have had Parkes, Lee, and even shingler ahead of him on consistency

Not sure what to make of this. More balance in that backrow than last week. Haskell ahead of Armand is predictable but disappointing.

10, 12, 13 probably make more sense but I wonder can that combination get wide of Ireland in the way Ford / Farrell might have.

Elliot Daly being fit is a plus for them though I'd have moved Watson to 14 and brought Brown in at 15. Rightly or wrongly I don't rate May.

sydthebeat

a bit of a panicky selection for england.

Webbs

sydthebeat wrote: »

What has james davies to do to get a look in. hes a much better all round 7 than Navadi in my opinion.

Navidi would be more towards a 6 than either Davies or Tipuric.

Its a shame any of them have to be left out as thought Davies was really good against Italy but then Navidi has been great all 6N, he is also a bit more of a ball carrier and against France grunt will be need a bit

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

a bit of a panicky selection for england.

Yeah. It's a complete change from the two playmakers approach that Jones has been selecting for ever.

Are they capable of adopting to that approach on the field?

Boscoirl

Sinckler over Coles only gives us 6 point instead of 9 due to stupidity

Webbs

prawnsambo wrote: »

Wigglesworth at scrum half. Not sure that's a positive for them tbh.

A saracens half back combo makes sense I would have thought, Ford has been muck all tournament so while more conservative it will strengthen the backk line for England I think

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

a bit of a panicky selection for england.

It's certainly reactionary. I'm a big Launchbury fan and happy to see him gone as well as Care. Wigglesworth is past his best at this point but he combines very well with Farrell so I suppose there's logic there.

But I think Cole has been mediocre and Sinckler, Haskell and Simmonds are going to make them more dynamic around the park as well as tidying up their rucks a bit.

I'd be looking very closely at getting some joy out of that 10/12 channel. They're also down a quality jumper in the back row so we must really look to put the squeeze on their throw.

Buer

The other positive for us is the fact that 7 is a huge number of changes to make to any team. They're not going to have continuity or familiarity. That back row has never played together before. Nor have Te'o and Joseph ever started a game together.

jr86

prawnsambo wrote: »

Wigglesworth at scrum half. Not sure that's a positive for them tbh.

Anytime I've seen him for Sarries over the last few years he has really impressed me. Care is a perfect impact sub anyway, I never really see the logic in starting him over finishing with him given his playing style

jr86

A bit surprised Cole doesn't start and then give Sinckler the majority of the second half. The latter was a revelation on the Lions Tour though and will certainly bring a lot. Cole has been well past his prime for a while now

When was the last time Farrell started for England at 10 in a 6n match?

They've more or less reverted to the Grand Slam Pack of 2016 (Vunipola gone, Sinckler for Cole). This is probably the best team they've picked all campaign however, but to actually make 7 changes in a week is massive. It seems a bit hit and miss

I'm surprised Brown hasn't been brought back in to be honest, but they're more of an attacking threat in his absence

jr86

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. It's a complete change from the two playmakers approach that Jones has been selecting for ever.

Are they capable of adopting to that approach on the field?

Thought he might even go a bit left field and pick Lozowski

May look at something new in the Summer. Ford has been very poor this campaign, and has never really fulfilled his potential at international level.

prawnsambo

You'd say it's clearly an attack minded selection except for the jettisoning of the second playmaker approach. Defensively though, there's potential for players to fluff their lines given the complete reshuffle in midfield. It's been so long since they took this approach. I think you have to go back to Lancaster's reign for the last time Farrell started at ten.

irishbucsfan

https://twitter.com/Cumoski/status/974272062876471296

So much for World Rugby being upset at vdW!

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

You'd say it's clearly an attack minded selection except for the jettisoning of the second playmaker approach. Defensively though, there's potential for players to fluff their lines given the complete reshuffle in midfield. It's been so long since they took this approach. I think you have to go back to Lancaster's reign for the last time Farrell started at ten.

I thought you were way off but he has only started for England at 10 once since the RWC (away to Australia).

jr86

prawnsambo wrote: »

You'd say it's clearly an attack minded selection except for the jettisoning of the second playmaker approach. Defensively though, there's potential for players to fluff their lines given the complete reshuffle in midfield. It's been so long since they took this approach. I think you have to go back to Lancaster's reign for the last time Farrell started at ten.

2014 was probably the last time in the 6nations? I remember he was on the bench behind Ford in 2015, but was it for the whole campaign?

prawnsambo

jr86 wrote: »

2014 was probably the last time in the 6nations? I remember he was on the bench behind Ford in 2015, but was it for the whole campaign?

I think he was injured. He had a serious knee injury that he came back from before the RWC in 2015 iirc.

jr86

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think he was injured. He had a serious knee injury that he came back from before the RWC in 2015 iirc.

You're dead right. Cipriani was actually on the bench (but barely got a game)

I remember there was a lot of drama about Farrell starting vs Wales in the RWC. Funny looking back!

joseywhales

jr86 wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think he was injured. He had a serious knee injury that he came back from before the RWC in 2015 iirc.

You're dead right. Cipriani was actually on the bench (but barely got a game)

I remember there was a lot of drama about Farrell starting vs Wales in the RWC. Funny looking back!

Farrell is gonna sit deeper than a clowns pocket. I will say their front 5 looks very strong but ours is up to that level maybe I could see best struggling in there physically.kruis,itoje v Henderson,Ryan is a great matchup. I think we can sicken sinkler into a yellow card, get Furlong and Healy running at him/clearing him out. Trench warfare part deux

stephen_n

joseywhales wrote: »

Farrell is gonna sit deeper than a clowns pocket. I will say their front 5 looks very strong but ours is up to that level maybe I could see best struggling in there physically.kruis,itoje v Henderson,Ryan is a great matchup. I think we can sicken sinkler into a yellow card, get Furlong and Healy running at him/clearing him out. Trench warfare part deux

Best maybe slowing down, but he certainly doesn’t lack physicality.

OldRio

irishbucsfan wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Cumoski/status/974272062876471296

So much for World Rugby being upset at vdW!

He's been stood down I believe.

7oakse

I'm pretty sure this is Sinckler's first international start, I believe he started a non-capped game vs. the BaBa's but that's the extent of it. That's huge. Granted, he's a capped Lion but it's a different beast starting a game, pacing yourself etc on an occasion of this magnitude.

7oakse

7oakse wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is Sinckler's first international start, I believe he started a non-capped game vs. the BaBa's but that's the extent of it. That's huge. Granted, he's a capped Lion but it's a different beast starting a game, pacing yourself etc on an occasion of this magnitude.

you have to remember, the magnitude comes only from the green side. To England this is just trying to end a two match losing streak.

Buer

Aegir wrote: »

you have to remember, the magnitude comes only from the green side. To England this is just trying to end a two match losing streak.

It's only a two match winning streak but the pressure has been ramped up hugely on the English side. 8 weeks ago, their media was viewing them as potential favourites for the RWC next year. That's in tatters now and they're wobbling badly.

I can't recall a side being under such scrutiny on the back of just two defeats.

prawnsambo

Aegir wrote: »

you have to remember, the magnitude comes only from the green side. To England this is just trying to end a two match losing streak.

But that losing streak has been away from home. This is that plus not losing at home for the first time since losing to Australia in the RWC 2015.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

But that losing streak has been away from home. This is that plus not losing at home for the first time since losing to Australia in the RWC 2015.

Every game England play at twickenham is potentially the first home defeat since RWC2015.

7oakse

Aegir wrote: »

7oakse wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is Sinckler's first international start, I believe he started a non-capped game vs. the BaBa's but that's the extent of it. That's huge. Granted, he's a capped Lion but it's a different beast starting a game, pacing yourself etc on an occasion of this magnitude.

you have to remember, the magnitude comes only from the green side. To England this is just trying to end a two match losing streak.

I'm not so sure. They are under huge pressure to deliver - Losing three games on the bounce for England in the 6N is real unchartered territory for them, and tryingending a two match losing streak at home is pretty big. Especially when you consider the manner in which they lost against Scotland and the inability to rectify the issues they had in that game against France. 

Obviously playing for a grand slam is much bigger, but the English press don't necessarily believe that.

prawnsambo

Aegir wrote: »

Every game England play at twickenham is potentially the first home defeat since RWC2015.

But not every home game has followed two losses on the trot.

Buer

7oakse wrote: »

I'm not so sure. They are under huge pressure to deliver - Losing three games on the bounce for England in the 6N is real unchartered territory for them

Did it back to back in 2005 and 2006, would you believe.

7oakse

Buer;106456100

Did it back to back in 2005 and 2006, would you believe.
I did not know that! I was relatively young but am I right in saying that wasn't a vintage England team? I think part of the pressure stems from the fact that these guys were flying under EJ and all of sudden they look a little short of ideas.

Buer

It was a team circling the drain. They mortgaged the future winning the RWC. When that was done, they lost a few senior players (Johnson, Back). Some other senior players stayed on past their best and continued to be selected out of loyalty.

None of them had the hunger they had beforehand and the coaches were far too slow to get their house in order and wound up plugging gaps with lads like Jamie Noon and Andy Goode who were middle of the road professionals.

Professor Moriarty

Buer wrote: »

It was a team circling the drain. They mortgaged the future winning the RWC. When that was done, they lost a few senior players (Johnson, Back). Some other senior players stayed on past their best and continued to be selected out of loyalty.

None of them had the hunger they had beforehand and the coaches were far too slow to get their house in order and wound up plugging gaps with lads like Jamie Noon and Andy Goode who were middle of the road professionals.

"They mortgaged the future winning the RWC" Do you mean they sacrificed squad development to win the RWC? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do considering it's the biggest achievement there is in rugby?

jr86

Buer wrote: »

Did it back to back in 2005 and 2006, would you believe.

Weren't far off in 2007 either. Lost to ourselves in round 3 and Wales in round 5, but managed to grind out a win against the Champions France in round 4

jr86

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"They mortgaged the future winning the RWC" Do you mean they sacrificed squad development to win the RWC? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do considering it's the biggest achievement there is in rugby?

Think it's more that they were too slow to start building a new team afterwards, and they stuck with RWC winning players coming to the end of their careers out of loyalty

The mid-late 00s was a very barren period for English Rugby, with a lot of dross in the team. And bizarrely they could have actually won the RWC in 2007

Buer

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"They mortgaged the future winning the RWC" Do you mean they sacrificed squad development to win the RWC? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do considering it's the biggest achievement there is in rugby?

I wouldn't disagree with them doing it whatsoever. Just highlighting that it was always going to be a rapid fall off after the music stopped. Those players who stuck around after 2003 weren't necessarily past their physical prime either. Just their hunger was completely gone but they continued to be selected. Lads like Ben Cohen, Mike Tindall and Ben Kay went backwards very quickly.

Professor Moriarty

jr86 wrote: »

Think it's more that they were too slow to start building a new team afterwards, and they stuck with RWC winning players coming to the end of their careers out of loyalty

The mid-late 00s was a very barren period for English Rugby, with a lot of dross in the team. And bizarrely they could have actually won the RWC in 2007

Right. That make sense. Resting on their laurels. Looked up the 2007 squad (coach Brian Ashton):

Andrew Sheridan, Perry Freshwater, Phil Vickery (capt), Matt Stevens, Mark Regan, George Chuter, Lee Mears, Simon Shaw, Steve Borthwick, Ben Kay, Martin Corry, Lewis Moody, Joe Worsley, Tom Rees, Nick Easter, Lawrence Dallaglio.

Mark Cueto, Paul Sackey, Josh Lewsey, Jason Robinson, Mathew Tait, Dan Hipkiss, Jamie Noon, Mike Catt, Andrew Farrell, Olly Barkley, Jonny Wilkinson, Shaun Perry, Andy Gomarsall, Peter Richards.

Wilkinson aside, the backs are uninspiring.

Professor Moriarty

Buer wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree with them doing it whatsoever. Just highlighting that it was always going to be a rapid fall off after the music stopped. Those players who stuck around after 2003 weren't necessarily past their physical prime either. Just their hunger was completely gone but they continued to be selected. Lads like Ben Cohen, Mike Tindall and Ben Kay went backwards very quickly.

I think if that England team had been captained by anyone other than Johnson then they wouldn't have won. Best captain I've ever seen.

Yeah_Right

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Right. That make sense. Resting on their laurels. Looked up the 2007 squad (coach Brian Ashton):

Andrew Sheridan, Perry Freshwater, Phil Vickery (capt), Matt Stevens, Mark Regan, George Chuter, Lee Mears, Simon Shaw, Steve Borthwick, Ben Kay, Martin Corry, Lewis Moody, Joe Worsley, Tom Rees, Nick Easter, Lawrence Dallaglio.

Mark Cueto, Paul Sackey, Josh Lewsey, Jason Robinson, Mathew Tait, Dan Hipkiss, Jamie Noon, Mike Catt, Andrew Farrell, Olly Barkley, Jonny Wilkinson, Shaun Perry, Andy Gomarsall, Peter Richards.

Wilkinson aside, the backs are uninspiring.

Jason Robinson was class. The rest were very pedistrian.

In the forwards, Dallaglio and Shaw were top quality but everyone else were average. Can't believe that side made a RWC final.

jr86

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Right. That make sense. Resting on their laurels. Looked up the 2007 squad (coach Brian Ashton):

Andrew Sheridan, Perry Freshwater, Phil Vickery (capt), Matt Stevens, Mark Regan, George Chuter, Lee Mears, Simon Shaw, Steve Borthwick, Ben Kay, Martin Corry, Lewis Moody, Joe Worsley, Tom Rees, Nick Easter, Lawrence Dallaglio.

Mark Cueto, Paul Sackey, Josh Lewsey, Jason Robinson, Mathew Tait, Dan Hipkiss, Jamie Noon, Mike Catt, Andrew Farrell, Olly Barkley, Jonny Wilkinson, Shaun Perry, Andy Gomarsall, Peter Richards.

Wilkinson aside, the backs are uninspiring.

Absolutely. Tait was top class on his day too but riddled with injuries the poor b@stard. And Johnson inexplicably opted for Tindall over him, when he took over.

Robinson was coming to the end that time. They pretty much beat Australia via scrums alone in the Quarters, and France just collapsed in the semi

Even today, Catt in 07, Farrell, Hipkiss, Noon, Barkley, Perry, Gomarsall or Richards would not get within an asses roar of the squad

The starting pack was massively physical in those days.

Buer

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Jason Robinson was class. The rest were very average.

In the forwards, Dallaglio and Shaw were top quality but everyone else were nothing to fear. Can't believe that side made a RWC final.

Sheer bloody mindedness. Easter and Corry both had very good tournaments and were big characters in the side. Mike Catt had a very good tournament too.

There was a lot of mediocrity in the side but they had a set piece and wouldn't give in.

If Cueto's try had been given (and I'm still not sure it wasn't a try), it might have been different.

jr86

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think if that England team had been captained by anyone other than Johnson then they wouldn't have won. Best captain I've ever seen.

Even 03 is a funny enough one. Wales were awful back then, so that was a gimme quarter and France never turned up in the semis (they were such an enigma in those days). It was pissing rain I remember and England basically beat them in a kicking battle - Michalak had a mare after a stunning tournament

Had they played France on a good day or the All Blacks I'm not sure they'd have won it out. All ifs and buts I know.

Be interesting to see would many of the current team start then. Completely different game back then though. Obviously Vunipola and Tuilagi would cause mass destruction in those days. Watson for Cohen probably and Mako Vunipola LH prop.

But if you stuck even Jonny May into that team he could have been a world beater, when they had such a good pack and out-half. Very hard to compare

Buer

I think England would have beaten anyone in 2003. NZ weren't the force they became after that and got a lot wrong that tournament. I'd have comfortably backed England to beat them. They'd beaten NZ in Wellington earlier that year including the famous defensive stint with 6 forwards on the pitch.

Bazzo

The Italian u20s have beaten the Scots today. That's 2 wins for them in the championship, the other against Wales.