Why are we all sooo tired??

For Forks Sake

snowgal wrote: »

.Me, I always feel tired, everyday Id say, bar maybe a Sunday when Ive had a good sleep. Even this morning I really really wanted to stay in bed another hour but with work obviously couldn't. I dont have kids so thats not even my excuse! Im active enough and would be out doing rehearsals or something 4 or 5 nights at this time of year. Go to bed about 12.30/1.00 and up at 8.30. so is everyone the same?? and if so why are we?

Arra here, cry me a river.

_Brian

Insomnia here.
Awake for 2-4 hours most nights.

donegaLroad

My bedtime is around 2am, its always been around that time. Im up at 8:30

diomed

Sleep debt.
Everyone (except late teens) need about 8.5 hours sleep a day.
If you get less you are overdrawn by the shortfall.
An accumulation of sleep debt makes you unhappy and unenthusiastic.
You can not recover a debt of, for example, 30 hours, by sleeping 12 hours.
That just reduces the debt to 26 hours (30+8-12=26)..
To recover you must sleep more than 8.5 hours many times until the debt is paid.

Do not believe anyone who says they only sleep a few hours a night.

dresden8

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/is-everything-you-think-you-know-about-depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections

People are desperately unhappy with their sh1t lives.

Work is desperate. We are subject to maniacs doing soul breaking sh1te for work.

Seems right.

ChikiChiki

I think there is some truth on this. Would love to like to see depression and suicide stats compared with simpler past times. Things are a lot more complicated nowadays. Tons of societal pressures and expectations that for many are difficult to meet and keep on top of.

snowgal

Well here we go, awake now after an hour and half sleep. Went to bed at 12ish... Tho in fairness, tonight the snows on my mind

snowgal

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Arra here, cry me a river.

Arra here, no idea why the writing in bold in quote??? What does that matter in terms of the topic? as a said, despite that still feel really tired... As do others?

tritium

tritium wrote: »

For me, not getting to bed last night till 1:30 due to work pressure. Up at 6:30 to go and do it all again. That’s actually an improvement on the sweatshop that was 2017.

Mix that with a young family and presto, permanent tiredness!

Ww isn't work dude :P

misstearheus

Fibromyalgia/Chronic-pain/Chronic-Fatigue.

NIMAN

I think mobile phones are a massive factor, and bigger than some people will admit.

The fact that most people are now heading off to bed with a device in their hand is a real problem. I'd guess many will check out something on the device before attempting to sleep. It has been shown that using a device releases chemicals in the brain that do not aid sleep.

Plus how many people when they are lying in bed trying to get to sleep have some thought or subject pop into their heads, and then go back to the phone again?

I work shifts so am often up at very unsociable hours (the reason for posting at this time). I know people who complain about lack of sleep yet you see them posting stuff at 2am, 3am etc.

I think if we could just use an alarm clock instead of our phones, and left the phone downstairs or whatever, it would help a lot.

NIMAN

ChikiChiki wrote: »

I think there is some truth on this. Would love to like to see depression and suicide stats compared with simpler past times. Things are a lot more complicated nowadays. Tons of societal pressures and expectations that for many are difficult to meet and keep on top of.

Are they more complicated though, or are we making them more complicated?

As for pressures, its up to the individual to decide what they need to worry about and what is just nonsense. People now worry about stupid things I think, a lot more than in my parents times.

NIMAN

For the record, I used to suffer from insomnia many years back.

I never needed much sleep to function, and would often find myself tossing and turning at 4am after maybe 4 or 5 hrs sleep. Many times I would have switched on the radio and listened to it until I had to get up for work at maybe 7 or 730.

My OH often found it hard to grasp how I was able to rise so easily with so little sleep.

I don't have insomnia now. I have young kids. I could sleep every minute God sends.

worded

Top causes of fatigue
https://www.onhealth.com/content/1/causes_of_fatigue

I’d say stress is a biggy for a lot of people

marketty

Capitalism

seamus

I do not get to reply to many of your posts - as you usually are just saying exactly what I would say - only better. So forgive me for jumping at this chance

seamus wrote: »

Granted, I'm a sample size of one, but I haven't seen any proper studies about it, just hypotheses and representative anecdotes from psychologists.

The "You are just over stimulating yourself" approach is worth thinking about. But when people say "It happens when I watch tele - but I sleep fine when I read a book" I do notice that books are stimulation too. So what is the difference - aside from light patterns on the eye and audio - between stimulation from one and the other?

As for studies on the matter - I do not know what studies you would find convincing. But I hope what is out there at least elevates the state of our knowledge over "just hypotheses and representative anecdotes"

I guess to explore it a good place to start would be and studies that melanopsin-based photoreception is involved in the modulation of sleep (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19160505?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19060203?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19513122?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23510299?dopt=Abstract).

There is also a suggestion that "Aberrant light directly impairs mood and learning through melanopsin-expressing neurons." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23151476?dopt=Abstract

From there it has also been suggested that blue light in the range of 460–480 nm is effective in causing a phase-shift the human circadian clock. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12970330?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23090946?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20463367?dopt=Abstract)

Seemingly also exposure to blue light can increase alertness. Which has me tempted to build a system of long and short flashes that I administer to myself over the course of the day since I do not drink coffee (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16979545?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18815716?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25072880?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17404390?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043754?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24381372?dopt=Abstract)

And then of course are the studies that directly look at the claim that this kind of light affects sleep patterns and alterness the following day. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25535358?dopt=Abstract

Interesting also is that there is reason to think that the effect decreases with age. Apparently the human eye lens "yellows" somewhat with age, thus decreasing the blue light transmission. Though this goes both ways. Older people with sleep pattern issues have been found to have their sleep pattern improved by the removal of cataracts - which thus allowed greater blue light sensitivity during the day. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23145881?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16714268?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25526429?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19227580?dopt=Abstract

A lot to work through there - but as I said I think the feeling that blue light affects sleep goes beyond mere hypothesis at this point?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

OldNotWIse

Sh*t, thankless jobs that make us question why we bothered going to college in the first place where there is a toxic environment in which we must play happy family even though we know we will never get ahead but we have to keep anyway so the government can rape our salary and we can use the leftovers to do adult sh*t like pay bills and rent/ mortgage and use the coins over to buy cheap shiraz in lidl to get trollied every night to forget about said job, and said getting trollied makes it really hard to get up and go to said job each morning but we have to because of aforementioned reasons

worded

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Sh*t, thankless jobs that make us question why we bothered going to college in the first place where there is a toxic environment in which we must play happy family even though we know we will never get ahead but we have to keep anyway so the government can rape our salary and we can use the leftovers to do adult sh*t like pay bills and rent/ mortgage and use the coins over to buy cheap shiraz in lidl to get trollied every night to forget about said job, and said getting trollied makes it really hard to get up and go to said job each morning but we have to because of aforementioned reasons

Social engineering
Work you ass off, long commutes, cut the grass Saturday, wash the car Sunday to bed early and go to work Monday repeat

But how to make the most of your life ? If you are tired all the time it’s a half life. How can you reach your potential if fatigued? Energy is so so important !

I have the answer, hint it’s exercising
https://youtu.be/9RJafO-BWvg

A lovely hopper - semi NSFW
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=7s&v=ZzyT47kkFqM

Pac1Man

I'm feeling it today. Only got 9 hours sleep last night rather than my usual 11. Think I left the heating on a bit longer than usual so the house was extra toasty plus the extra large hot chocolate right before bed didn't help either.

Have to empty the dishwasher later so I'd say that will zap me too.

Sure we'll plod along.

one armed dwarf

I do feel a bit better since trying to get a bit of a swim and cardio/light weight-lifting in 3 times a week or so. Cook most nights as well.

Haven't killed the old internet addiction or caffeine addiction just yet though.

Kivaro

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Sh*t, thankless jobs that make us question why we bothered going to college in the first place where there is a toxic environment in which we must play happy family even though we know we will never get ahead but we have to keep anyway so the government can rape our salary and we can use the leftovers to do adult sh*t like pay bills and rent/ mortgage and use the coins over to buy cheap shiraz in lidl to get trollied every night to forget about said job, and said getting trollied makes it really hard to get up and go to said job each morning but we have to because of aforementioned reasons

Ah life.

What we need is a revolution. A new way of doing things.
This way of life is bull**** for the vast majority of people (who work).

Viva la revolución!

worded

one armed dwarf wrote: »

I do feel a bit better since trying to get a bit of a swim and cardio/light weight-lifting in 3 times a week or so. Cook most nights as well.

Haven't killed the old internet addiction or caffeine addiction just yet though.

Ask for 50:50 de caf to normal coffee at coffee shops.
Seems like the same strength of coffee with 50% of coffee. That way you wean yourself off cafeine. Do like wise at home

Malayalam

For those who find it hard to get off to sleep, try going earlier to bed, quite a bit earlier - you might be missing your bodies natural time zone for sleep. Go back in bed times till you catch it. If you wake in middle of night and lie sleepless, get up, have a cocoa or a banana, and don't check phone, just sit there quietly, then go back to bed and drift off. Embrace biphasic sleep! I don't live a rat race life style but can sometimes be tired - electronic stimulation during the day is definitely one reason, sometimes lack of motivation or uncertainty as to purpose is another. That is similar to the oft mentioned reason in this thread with people finding **** jobs to be boring. Why would one have energy in that case? To feel lively one needs a sense of purpose or meaning.
But sleep is a big thing. I am a huge fan of it. It amazes me how little people in general sleep. Without electricity we would probably sleep up to 12 hours or more a day for 6 months of the year. Maybe that is what our bodies need?

Rubberchikken

Dont have time to be tired.
Work nights. Catch some sleep. Then walk dog. Shops. Meal. Quick episode of something funny then work. Maybe someday:P

mickrock

If you have trouble falling asleep lie at the very edge of the bed—you'll soon drop off.

worded

mickrock wrote: »

If you have trouble falling asleep lie at the very edge of the bed—you'll soon drop off.

Also ... If you feel like exercise, lie down until the feeling goes away ...

Lia_lia

I have to say I’m very rarely tired. Only times I’m ever really tired is if I get less than 6 hours of sleep. I find it very hard to function at work when I’m wrecked so I rarely end up sleeping for less time than I need.

I try to get between 6 1/2 - 7 hours and I’m grand. Most nights I’m asleep by 12.15am and up at about 6.45am.

My Mother is one of these people that can get by on about 5 hours of sleep a night...

rekluse

dresden8 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/is-everything-you-think-you-know-about-depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections

People are desperately unhappy with their sh1t lives.

Work is desperate. We are subject to maniacs doing soul breaking sh1te for work.

Seems right.

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

worded

dresden8 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/is-everything-you-think-you-know-about-depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections

People are desperately unhappy with their sh1t lives.

Work is desperate. We are subject to maniacs doing soul breaking sh1te for work.

Seems right.

Excellent article

Jerry Mac

Drive through macdonalds and drive through KFCS. Nation of fatty fatties.

Baron Kurtz

snowgal wrote: »

Arra here, no idea why the writing in bold in quote??? What does that matter in terms of the topic? as a said, despite that still feel really tired... As do others?

Bit narky from lack of sleep I suppose.

_Roz_

dresden8 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/is-everything-you-think-you-know-about-depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections

People are desperately unhappy with their sh1t lives.

Work is desperate. We are subject to maniacs doing soul breaking sh1te for work.

Seems right.

Good article but is in itself depressing. For someone like me with myriad issues underlying my anxiety, particularly historical factors influencing how I interact with the world now, it's almost impossible to overhaul my life in any meaningful way, and that's before even considering that it's all for the purpose of keeping the rent paid.

I'd rather it was just my brain being broken.

NIMAN

rekluse wrote: »

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

TL;DR

Skedaddle

One major change I've made recently is keeping all screens out of the bedroom. I have put a radio beside the bed and a normal alarm clock rather than the phone.

I find if I have my phone beside me, I will invariably end up reading news stories, flipping past twitter, browsing boards.ie, reacting to notifications and so on.

I'm sleeping a LOT better now.

somefeen

seamus wrote: »

I dunno, I'm skeptical about this "blue light" stuff, it may just be pop science and pop psychology.

I've been using computers and screens for years, as late as you like, and never noticed any effect (negative or positive) on my sleep patterns.

What I notice with my kids is that the later they watch something, the more stimulated they are, the more difficulty they have sleeping.

So I'm starting to think that it's just that simple - the whole red light/blue light/circadian rhythm/sleep cycle stuff is a red herring, and it's just to do with peoples' minds being overstimulated by new content when they should be avoiding it and winding down for sleep. Prehistoric man sat around fires telling old stories and singing old songs; winding the brain down with familiar and comfortable entertainment rather than new and exciting stuff.

Granted, I'm a sample size of one, but I haven't seen any proper studies about it, just hypotheses and representative anecdotes from psychologists.

Nah the blue light thing is very much proven as having an important role in your biological clock.

Studies were done on mice which were genetically manipulated to be born blind. Their wake/sleep pattern was disturbed and manipulated just as much as normal mice when the light and dark cycle in their environment was changed.

Turns out even though they were blind the receptors in the eye which detect blue light were still functioning even though the mice wouldn't have been conscious of it. This entrained their biological rhythm according to the light/dark cycle they were exposed to.

Same reason blind people don't have huge problems with their circadian rhythm. The brain still detects the blue light but they aren't conscious of it.
Very fascinating field of study. If I could remember the name of the mice paper I'd link it.

Widdershins

somefeen wrote: »

Nah the blue light thing is very much proven as having an important role in your biological clock.

Studies were done on mice which were genetically manipulated to be born blind. Their wake/sleep pattern was disturbed and manipulated just as much as normal mice when the light and dark cycle in their environment was changed.

Turns out even though they were blind the receptors in the eye which detect blue light were still functioning even though the mice wouldn't have been conscious of it. This entrained their biological rhythm according to the light/dark cycle they were exposed to.

Same reason blind people don't have huge problems with their circadian rhythm. The brain still detects the blue light but they aren't conscious of it.
Very fascinating field of study. If I could remember the name of the mice paper I'd link it.

I know a blind man who doesn't seem to know if it's night or day. He wasn't born blind. I realise he might be the exception, I just didn't realise other blind people don't usually have that problem. Interesting.


About that Guardian article. It looks to me like its completely ignoring the existence of the classification of reactive depression. Which is a reaction to grief, or other life circumstances or events, that cause depression. Instead it says they created 'exceptions' to the conditions for diagnosing depression. Clinical depression is the more 'unexplained' type of depression.

Other than that it makes perfect sense that the underlying causes of unhappiness should be addressed rather than papering over it with medication. It's just not always possible or easy to do so.