Posts of Responsibilty

Mardy Bum

Can someone tell me how Bruton is arriving at his 1 in 3 teachers will have a post? Are some schools privileged with extra posts? DEIS, I suppose?

Is this the single most toxic event for an entire staff?

km79

This is a genuine question.
Do people really believe that the old system of next in line getting the next available post was better ?

TheDriver

Review of posts are two fold: needs of the school and consultation with staff. There are unfortunately some schools who will try to make staff do unreasonable things in the same way there are some staff who won't do anything reasonable for their post. I find in the vast majority of schools, posts are well formed, specified and appointed.

Mardy Bum

TheDriver wrote: »

Review of posts are two fold: needs of the school and consultation with staff. There are unfortunately some schools who will try to make staff do unreasonable things in the same way there are some staff who won't do anything reasonable for their post. I find in the vast majority of schools, posts are well formed, specified and appointed.

By something reasonable for their post - do you mean volunteer for a length period of time carrying out said post or simply doing an excellent job in the classroom and helping out from time to time?

TheDriver

Nope, I mean something reasonable for the post as agreed in the school plan for appointed post holders

amacca

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

God I dread the cutthroat backstabbing crap we will have to endure over the coming weeks. There won't be enough posts to cover all the people doing year head, TY coordinator, SEN coordinator etc unpaid in my school. And all but a handful have a Masters in management and leadership. It's going to be toxic.

Its a pity some people let themselves be duped into free work to the detriment of others...or decide to do it to get ahead and in the process possibly don't even get ahead or stab others directly in the back or all their colleagues indirectly....it reduces working conditions for all.

I wish people just wouldn't do things unpaid if they could help it....its a bad idea especially in the light of how the dept/society/minister for ed has seen fit to treat teachers for a good number of years now

If more held the line on this the Dept might at least be forced to come up with more solutions - maybe acknowledge extra curricular, reduce CP or SS hours to accommodate some of these functions...hell even create more paying positions.

If you can help it and you do this extra work for free you are a mug in the long term imo.....or someone who will do anything for the name on the door to the detriment of others and probably yourself.

ASISEEIT

amacca wrote: »

Its a pity some people let themselves be duped into free work to the detriment of others...or decide to do it to get ahead and in the process possibly don't even get ahead or stab others directly in the back or all their colleagues indirectly....it reduces working conditions for all.

I wish people just wouldn't do things unpaid if they could help it....its a bad idea especially in the light of how the dept/society/minister for ed has seen fit to treat teachers for a good number of years now

If more held the line on this the Dept might at least be forced to come up with more solutions - maybe acknowledge extra curricular, reduce CP or SS hours to accommodate some of these functions...hell even create more paying positions.

If you can help it and you do this extra work for free you are a mug in the long term imo.....or someone who will do anything for the name on the door to the detriment of others and probably yourself.

To be fair people sometimes just enjoy doing things. I took a soccer team for years simply because I enjoyed it and not because I expected reward. However ,there are cases where people expect to get things by doing things that the dept should pay for like IT or Literacy or head of Department. In those cases I see your point
The merit bit is a joke as you have this job for life effectively-if successful- so if you sit back after getting job who will sack you-answer nobody.

This type of stuff has been going on in Community schools for decades. Can people tell me what this type of situation ie "merit" based promotion is like in your school?

km79

km79 wrote: »

This is a genuine question.
Do people really believe that the old system of next in line getting the next available post was better ?

I guess they don’t ......

ASISEEIT

km79 wrote: »

This is a genuine question.
Do people really believe that the old system of next in line getting the next available post was better ?

The old system had a few advantages . Firstly everyone got a post eventually. Nobody retired without one or rarely did. Secondly it avoided back stabbing and arse licking.
There were cases of people doing sweet F all or not being suitable for certain jobs but that was fault of management ,dept and unions for not resolving issue but by and large people did what they were asked to do.
This new system will mean post holders having the job for decades which as i have already pointed out means that once they get it they can sit back and relax. A real merit system would limit their tenure. So its all bull in the end

km79

ASISEEIT wrote: »

This new system will mean post holders having the job for decades which as i have already pointed out means that once they get it they can sit back and relax. A real merit system would limit their tenure. So its all bull in the end

The old system also meant people were in a post for decades ?
And there was ZERO accountability. None.
Now at least in theory there is

ASISEEIT

km79 wrote: »

The old system also meant people were in a post for decades ?
And there was ZERO accountability. None.
Now at least in theory there is

In most schools people got a post . Thats the truth. You would definitely get one under old system. Will you get one now? If you believe an annual report is accountable then you are in for a shock. Booker prize material . Most people i knew with posts did a good job. Bottom line is while schools are thankfully more inclusive places -standards are falling and no boot is being put into students to improve. Thus these new posts wont improve your schools discipline or results. But your paperwork will be done !

There are young people who definitely deserve to be rewarded over some layabouts who never did a tap but most teachers do their best. Depends on their stage of life. I think a lot of women with young kids wont go for posts-because they are at a stage where home is more important. Anyway all the best folks-watch yer backs!

liverpool lad

Hi. Regarding the new post structure - how are the interviews being conducted in different schools? We have been told that the advertisement will merely say "AP1" or "AP11" but the post you would be going for would not be noted on the job advertisement. The successful candidates at either A1 ir A2 level will then be discussed by management and the roles, based on the needs of the school, assigned on that basis?

It seems a bit bizarre that you'd apply for a post, not knowing what exact post you were going for and end up with the possibility of securing a post you had no interest or experience in due to a lack of people going / showing leadership or interest in that role itself? It seems like a way to deter people applying and getting "yes" people who will do anything into the posts and chop and change them year after year.

Does anyone have any information on this? I've read the circular and it doesn't say that it has to be or doesn't have to be done in this way, but just intrigued as to what other school principals are doing.

Looking forward to hearing all,

Thanks

ASISEEIT

liverpool lad wrote: »

Hi. Regarding the new post structure - how are the interviews being conducted in different schools? We have been told that the advertisement will merely say "AP1" or "AP11" but the post you would be going for would not be noted on the job advertisement. The successful candidates at either A1 ir A2 level will then be discussed by management and the roles, based on the needs of the school, assigned on that basis?

It seems a bit bizarre that you'd apply for a post, not knowing what exact post you were going for and end up with the possibility of securing a post you had no interest or experience in due to a lack of people going / showing leadership or interest in that role itself? It seems like a way to deter people applying and getting "yes" people who will do anything into the posts and chop and change them year after year.

Does anyone have any information on this? I've read the circular and it doesn't say that it has to be or doesn't have to be done in this way, but just intrigued as to what other school principals are doing.

Looking forward to hearing all,

Thanks

I think school will first decide on what it needs and then interview-NOT the other way round which your post implied. I think the jobs will be broad ranging. On the one hand it avoids the creation of a job to fit a particular lick arse but on the other hand its quite vague. Its all about leadership baby. Have you shown it? Will you have more in the future. Of course those that simply did their main job-teaching-well-will probably be over looked. Who knows. I find it incredible the cockiness of some 30 year olds who think its a guarantee they will get one. Anybody around long enough-knows you get screwed a few times in a career. Part of life

Mardy Bum

liverpool lad wrote: »

Hi. Regarding the new post structure - how are the interviews being conducted in different schools? We have been told that the advertisement will merely say "AP1" or "AP11" but the post you would be going for would not be noted on the job advertisement. The successful candidates at either A1 ir A2 level will then be discussed by management and the roles, based on the needs of the school, assigned on that basis?

It seems a bit bizarre that you'd apply for a post, not knowing what exact post you were going for and end up with the possibility of securing a post you had no interest or experience in due to a lack of people going / showing leadership or interest in that role itself? It seems like a way to deter people applying and getting "yes" people who will do anything into the posts and chop and change them year after year.

Does anyone have any information on this? I've read the circular and it doesn't say that it has to be or doesn't have to be done in this way, but just intrigued as to what other school principals are doing.

Looking forward to hearing all,

Thanks

There should be a whole staff review of posts before the interviews but some principals don't trust their staff it seems.

liverpool lad

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There should be a whole staff review of posts before the interviews but some principals don't trust their staff it seems.

A list of needs was created at a staff meeting and that has gone back to management. I'm sure finalised list of the current needs of the school will be displayed but it still seems bizarre to me they will identify the lists - I presume state which of those will be at A1 or A2 level and then you will be put through an interview and then your fate will be decided at the end of the process.

Is there even any duty or onus put on the school to state what exact positions will be under A1 and A2 level prior to the interview? I can't understand why it isn't clearly going to be stated that eg. "ICT coordinator" - A2 level / Sports coordinator - A2 level / Year Head - A1 level etc.

liverpool lad

ASISEEIT wrote: »

I think school will first decide on what it needs and then interview-NOT the other way round which your post implied. I think the jobs will be broad ranging. On the one hand it avoids the creation of a job to fit a particular lick arse but on the other hand its quite vague. Its all about leadership baby. Have you shown it? Will you have more in the future. Of course those that simply did their main job-teaching-well-will probably be over looked. Who knows. I find it incredible the cockiness of some 30 year olds who think its a guarantee they will get one. Anybody around long enough-knows you get screwed a few times in a career. Part of life

Schools deciding the needs and then interviews is key for sure, but why once the needs are identified would it not make more sense (with STAFF in mind) to let staff members apply for a post with the actual role and responsibility laid out beforehand - different staff members have different interests and skillsets and surely management would want to assess their leadership skills and abilities in regards to the post they are applying for, and if successful will be undertaking in the school. A post in SSE is very different to a year head post / ICT post and someone who has a huge interest in ICT may have no desire to be involved in the SSE process of a school yet get offered this post following a general interview??

Mainly just wondering if this is the way it will be rolled out in all schools

km79

liverpool lad wrote: »

Schools deciding the needs and then interviews is key for sure, but why once the needs are identified would it not make more sense (with STAFF in mind) to let staff members apply for a post with the actual role and responsibility laid out beforehand - different staff members have different interests and skillsets and surely management would want to assess their leadership skills and abilities in regards to the post they are applying for, and if successful will be undertaking in the school. A post in SSE is very different to a year head post / ICT post and someone who has a huge interest in ICT may have no desire to be involved in the SSE process of a school yet get offered this post following a general interview??

Mainly just wondering if this is the way it will be rolled out in all schools

As outlined in the circular when you get any post now you have to be able to do a range of duties . You can’t pick and choose which post you would like and stay in it for life
This is to help develop a wide range of skills and ensure school is not left with a deficit when postholder retires.
If people are unwilling to do this I guess they shouldn’t apply

pandoraj09

It's actually illegal to advertise a job without a job description...We're putting together a POR review committee to look at the results from the staff meeting about the needs of the school. Are other schools doing this? If so, how did you decide who is on the committee? This is a bone of contention in our staff room at the moment.

r93kaey5p2izun

I don't see how this will be good for schools. In my school there is just one person who is suitably qualified and experienced to be the SEN coordinator - a crucial position in a school like mine (second only to the principal I'd say). This person would not be a good year head or TY coordinator though. They would be totally unsuitable. The notion they should not be given a post to be SEN coordinator just because they aren't the most versatile in terms of general management "just in case" is nonsense I think, and if that's the way it goes then it's the students who will lose out.

Mardy Bum

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

I don't see how this will be good for schools. In my school there is just one person who is suitably qualified and experienced to be the SEN coordinator - a crucial position in a school like mine (second only to the principal I'd say). This person would not be a good year head or TY coordinator though. They would be totally unsuitable. The notion they should not be given a post to be SEN coordinator just because they aren't the most versatile in terms of general management "just in case" is nonsense I think, and if that's the way it goes then it's the students who will lose out.

Sen coordinator should be spread across a range of people to mitigate the need to make it a post.

km79

pandoraj09 wrote: »

It's actually illegal to advertise a job without a job description...We're putting together a POR review committee to look at the results from the staff meeting about the needs of the school. Are other schools doing this? If so, how did you decide who is on the committee? This is a bone of contention in our staff room at the moment.

Staff meeting
Volunteers sought
Large staff with a lot of people always moaning about it
Despite this it was tough to form the committee with one person reluctantly joining to make up the numbers
Some people just like to moan I guess .........

r93kaey5p2izun

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Sen coordinator should be spread across a range of people to mitigate the need to make it a post.

I completely disagree. It's THE most crucial job in my school and nobody should have to do it for nothing! Doing it properly requires specific extra qualifications and the paperwork involved is colossal. Why would it not be recognised as a post??

km79

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

I don't see how this will be good for schools. In my school there is just one person who is suitably qualified and experienced to be the SEN coordinator - a crucial position in a school like mine (second only to the principal I'd say). This person would not be a good year head or TY coordinator though. They would be totally unsuitable. The notion they should not be given a post to be SEN coordinator just because they aren't the most versatile in terms of general management "just in case" is nonsense I think, and if that's the way it goes then it's the students who will lose out.

What if that one person fell ill in the morning and no other person had experience of it ?
Is that good for the kids left behind ?
That’s the thinking around it

The days of a post for life earned just by racking up the years are gone
Change is hard but it can be good

I’ve reservations about many many new developments not least the JC “Reform”

But I can see the thinking behind some of this

r93kaey5p2izun

km79 wrote: »

What if that one person fell ill in the morning and no other person had experience of it ?
Is that good for the kids left behind ?
That’s the thinking around it

The days of a post for life earned just by racking up the years are gone
Change is hard but it can be good

I’ve reservations about many many new developments not least the JC “Reform”

But I can see the thinking behind some of this

But this system won't ensure the others have any experience or appropriate qualifications to do the job either. In the case of sudden illnesss someone inappropriate will still end up doing the job under this system

km79

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

But this system won't ensure the others have any experience or appropriate qualifications to do the job either. In the case of sudden illnesss someone inappropriate will still end up doing the job under this system

For that one specific post you have mentioned yes
Which may not even be a post in many schools

Where posts are concerned a lot of people can have their own agendas and be fighting their own corner so to speak
ICT and special needs are fairly niche for example ........

r93kaey5p2izun

km79 wrote: »

For that one specific post you have mentioned yes
Which may not even be a post in many schools

Where posts are concerned a lot of people can have their own agendas and be fighting their own corner so to speak
ICT and special needs are fairly niche for example ........

For that one post yes - but it's the most important post in schools like mine. It's senseless that the best person wouldn't get the job just in case they get suddenly ill. So we'll have the wrong person, inadequately trained, in the role all the time instead of just in case of illness or emergency - simply because it will be easy to replace them with another inadequately trained person who is also unsuited to the job. The students with SEN can have mediocre provision but at least it will be consistent.

ASISEEIT

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

Mostly for financial reasons. But also because I feel trapped in a school where I don't see any prospects for myself. And if I have to take a risk on starting from scratch in order to move on, then I feel I might as well give something with better financial potential a shot. I suppose I can always do some subbing if I have to anyway. But I just don't think teaching offers a sufficient standard of living in the Dublin area unless you can rely on a partner or family.

I think your lament rings true for most professions but in teaching career progression has been spat on -again and again. Look a B post gives you 2k a year after tax. Most teachers can earn that easily outside. Ie supervision,exam correction

Once you are over 5 years in a teaching job its hard to work 48 weeks of the year
Grass can be greener but if you are LPT it can be greener!

evolving_doors

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Sen coordinator should be spread across a range of people to mitigate the need to make it a post.

A range of QUALIFIED people.
Hence why i reckon an SEN post will never be AP... unfortunately

Mardy Bum

evolving_doors wrote: »

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Sen coordinator should be spread across a range of people to mitigate the need to make it a post.

A range of QUALIFIED people.
Hence why i reckon an SEN post will never be AP... unfortunately

Exactly. Any school that has a large amount of SEN students should have a range of qualified teachers and some may still be receiving the hours off to do the paperwork if they have been in the job a few years.

ASISEEIT

Will anybody think of the children!!!