The Strange Death of the Railway to Navan

Hugh Jampton

Doing a search earlier I came across a thread that I had nearly forgotten since 2006. Martin Cullen, Fianna Fáil's then Transport Minister was due to address a Transport 21 meeting in Navan over local concerns that the delivery date for the rebuilding of the railway to Navan was going to be delayed to 2015.

Linky link: https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2054884107

Now, we all know with hindsight that it never happened, and the received wisdom at the present appears to be ah shure buses are grand.

There are a few problems with this.

Firstly- a significant amount of development in Navan over the last fifteen years was sold on the basis that the railway was imminent. Clearly, it wasn't.

Secondly- was all the pantomime over the railway - M3 Parkway spur and "Dempsey Delivers" and all that was, as
I suspect, a ruse to get the M3 built?

Hindsight suggests that was the case. In my view.

Zebra3

Politicians and the phrase "talk is cheap" are never far apart.

LuckyLloyd

As I always ask, would reopening the existing line via Drogheda be acceptable? Trains go to and from Navan and Dublin port on it every day of the week...

Del.Monte

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As I always ask, would reopening the existing line via Drogheda be acceptable? Trains go to and from Navan and Dublin port on it every day of the week...

Of course it would be acceptable, and practical, as has been stated here ad nauseam, but nobody in authority will get on with it. It would need an expensive consultants report which would end up on gathering dust in Kildare Street.

listermint

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As I always ask, would reopening the existing line via Drogheda be acceptable? Trains go to and from Navan and Dublin port on it every day of the week...

I think no, whats the point it wouldnt increase footfall as people want to get towards dublin fast. As such they will stick to their cars.

This whole work around stuff has to stop in relation to transport planning in ireland, It happened with the Luas Cross City, it happened with the red line luas (servicing anywhere and everywhere for a distance of what 10km as the crow flies it takes over 40 minutes.

You need to give options that make people want to use because they are at least as quick but mainly faster to their destination.

Turnipman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As I always ask, would reopening the existing line via Drogheda be acceptable? Trains go to and from Navan and Dublin port on it every day of the week...

Back in 2007, the Irish railusers' forum definitely reckoned that it was a runner, so presumably it still is?

Mutant z

A lot of things were promised during the Celtic Tiger period very few of them have come to fruition empty promises is all we get why cant we as a country walk the walk as opposed to talk the talk Metro North was supposed to have been completed by now as of 2018 we are still waiting.

Hugh Jampton

Turnipman wrote: »

Back in 2007, the Irish railusers' forum definitely reckoned that it was a runner, so presumably it still is?

Indeed. It should be. The hilarious thing is that I have seen references for Navan-Drogheda-Dublin as a possibility as far back as 1988. The wheels grind exceedingly slow on this, particularly in terms of transport planning, as far as rail projects are concerned, the best possible project will prevent the emergence of a decently good one.

As ever, I am reminded of John Maynard Keynes dictum that in the long term, we are all dead. There is no real reason why a peak hour service from Navan to Dublin with a cheap interchange at Drogheda shouldn't happen sooner than later. It will still be quicker than driving at peak, and P11 years ago proved that it wouldn't compromise services at Connolly.

I await the excuses as to why it can't happen :rolleyes:

Chris_5339762

The going theory at the time was there was a secret promise given to the M3 toll consortium that the Navan Rail would never happen and so would never threaten their income streams. Don't forget the M3 was built over the alignment and didn't provide bridges etc for the bits that were severed.

dermo888

Chris is correct, and Noel Dempsey and Fianna Fail should never be forgiven for it.

Xterminator

dermo888 wrote: »

Chris is correct, and Noel Dempsey and Fianna Fail should never be forgiven for it.

Of all the things one should remember about fianna fails years in government, this would be not be near the top of my list!

LuckyLloyd

listermint wrote: »

I think no, whats the point it wouldnt increase footfall as people want to get towards dublin fast. As such they will stick to their cars.

This whole work around stuff has to stop in relation to transport planning in ireland, It happened with the Luas Cross City, it happened with the red line luas (servicing anywhere and everywhere for a distance of what 10km as the crow flies it takes over 40 minutes.

You need to give options that make people want to use because they are at least as quick but mainly faster to their destination.

The LUAS Red line is close to capacity in terms of its loadings. It's been a great success.

If you live in Navan and can park and ride to slap bang in Dublin City Centre or onto Grand Canal Dock in an hour people will go for it. It won't be as fast, but Public Transport users often compromise on a few minutes to their destination in order to avoid driving. This is for a myriad of reasons.

The bottom line is that for ~€55m we could have regular rail services going to and from the heart of Navan to Dublin. And it could be up and running within a year. At a time where it is proving impossible to get necessary heavy rail projects like DART Underground and Metro North up and running, where we have existing infrastructure that can be leveraged for minimum cost let's just ****ing cut the **** and do it. It is in the interests of any public transport supporter to have the range of national services be increased.

Wagon360

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The LUAS Red line is close to capacity in terms of its loadings. It's been a great success.

If you live in Navan and can park and ride to slap bang in Dublin City Centre or onto Grand Canal Dock in an hour people will go for it. It won't be as fast, but Public Transport users often compromise on a few minutes to their destination in order to avoid driving. This is for a myriad of reasons.

The bottom line is that for ~€55m we could have regular rail services going to and from the heart of Navan to Dublin. And it could be up and running within a year. At a time where it is proving impossible to get necessary heavy rail projects like DART Underground and Metro North up and running, where we have existing infrastructure that can be leveraged for minimum cost let's just ****ing cut the **** and do it. It is in the interests of any public transport supporter to have the range of national services be increased.

Navan Rail or the lack of it is a pure scandal and really there should have been a public enquiry as to why it never happened. It’s been long rumoured that the rail service was a cover to get ten-t money to build the motorway but an enquiry would get to the heart of the matter as to what actually happened.

Hugh Jampton

Wagon360 wrote: »

Navan Rail or the lack of it is a pure scandal and really there should have been a public enquiry as to why it never happened. It’s been long rumoured that the rail service was a cover to get ten-t money to build the motorway but an enquiry would get to the heart of the matter as to what actually happened.

If there is, then Vincent Salafia should be one of the key people to give evidence. Link: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/oireachtas-committee-hearing-on-m3-motorway-1.415595

XPS_Zero

Mutant z wrote: »

A lot of things were promised during the Celtic Tiger period very few of them have come to fruition empty promises is all we get why cant we as a country walk the walk as opposed to talk the talk Metro North was supposed to have been completed by now as of 2018 we are still waiting.

You're either too young to remember OR your memory has faded but this country was transformed between 1997 and 2007 infrastructure wise, Luas, Port Tunnel, intercity motorways, DART UPgrade, other rail upgrades. But of course as I've said over and over again on here - we could have done so much better, we could have built a Scandanavian style welfare state and a European standard transport system but we were too interested (we the voters, and the politicos elected) investing in short term tax cuts and extra 10ers on pensions and children allowance - all that moneys gone now, if it had been spent on finishing Transport 21 imagine the country we'd have now! But not only did that govt not wanna do that, not a single party in the Dail suggested this approach at the time.

What has always annoyed me about this countries political "leadership" is their total lack of foresight and post-next election thinking, and I seem to recall Metro being re-announced at least three times with feck all actual movement on it, then canceled by the Kenny govt when they came in because they didn't understand the difference between an investment and an expense, like most Irish politicos

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The going theory at the time was there was a secret promise given to the M3 toll consortium that the Navan Rail would never happen and so would never threaten their income streams. Don't forget the M3 was built over the alignment and didn't provide bridges etc for the bits that were severed.

This is exactly the kind of cute whoorism that people hate about Irish politics but is there any actual evidence that it happened? as opposed to "theory"?
I'm more than willing to think it's a credible idea, far worse deals have been made (*cough* oil and gas exploration *cough*) but I require evidence to believe things - there are people who have theories about the moon landing being faked and a second shooter on the grassy knoll, but investigation and evidence are meant to follow theory conclusion is meant to come after these.

dermo888 wrote: »

Chris is correct, and Noel Dempsey and Fianna Fail should never be forgiven for it.

Noel Dempsey is gone, and his PDesque brand of FFer is gone too, and good riddance.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The LUAS Red line is close to capacity in terms of its loadings. It's been a great success.

If you live in Navan and can park and ride to slap bang in Dublin City Centre or onto Grand Canal Dock in an hour people will go for it. It won't be as fast, but Public Transport users often compromise on a few minutes to their destination in order to avoid driving. This is for a myriad of reasons.

The bottom line is that for ~€55m we could have regular rail services going to and from the heart of Navan to Dublin. And it could be up and running within a year. At a time where it is proving impossible to get necessary heavy rail projects like DART Underground and Metro North up and running, where we have existing infrastructure that can be leveraged for minimum cost let's just ****ing cut the **** and do it. It is in the interests of any public transport supporter to have the range of national services be increased.

55m is absolute pocket change we spend more than that on office supplies for the civil service every year. Even with the utterly moronic (and incorrect) excuse of "we've no money now coz of a recession so lets never have any foresight and plan for boom times by preparing public transport capacity for that time..lets instead wait until the boom happens then play catch up as people cram onto motorways and sandwitch into trains and trams choking on other peoples Lynx and hairspray"...even with that argument there is no excuse here, the money is dirt cheap and of course...the recession arguments gone.

cgcsb

Via Drogheda would give a very long journey time a lot longer than bus services I'd imagine. We also have no trains to run it. If we bought trains they'd have nowhere to go once they got to Drogheda because of capacity issues. We're going to get 10 minute frequency DARTs, as soon as the unions are defeated in their next strike. The result of that will be slower and less frequent intercity to Belfast and Sligo and slower less frequent outer commuter services. This situation will not improve until IÉ goes bust and is split up into a state owned infrastructure managing body and tendered out service operators. At that point the state will then have some confidence to put money into building new railways. As it is the state isn't going to run the risk of spending billions on DART underground and then have the drivers turn around and say they won't operate it for less than triple their salary again.

Hugh Jampton

cgcsb wrote: »

Via Drogheda would give a very long journey time a lot longer than bus services I'd imagine. We also have no trains to run it. If we bought trains they'd have nowhere to go once they got to Drogheda because of capacity issues. We're going to get 10 minute frequency DARTs, as soon as the unions are defeated in their next strike. The result of that will be slower and less frequent intercity to Belfast and Sligo and slower less frequent outer commuter services. This situation will not improve until IÉ goes bust and is split up into a state owned infrastructure managing body and tendered out service operators. At that point the state will then have some confidence to put money into building new railways. As it is the state isn't going to run the risk of spending billions on DART underground and then have the drivers turn around and say they won't operate it for less than triple their salary again.

I have the Platform 11 document from September 2005 in front of me that examined how rush hour trains to and from Navan via Drogheda would work.

The key points are:

1. Estimated travel time Navan-Drogheda-Connolly 73 mins
2. Estimated travel time Navan-Clonsilla-Connolly 50 mins
3. Existing resources in 2005 could provide a service leaving Navan 0700, arr Connolly 0818. Eight additional railcar carriages (based on 2005 stock) would provide a second train departing Navan at 0729, arriving Connolly 0841. Off-peak hourly services could be provided without compromising 2005's operations.
4. Return peak train to Navan on these assumptions would be 1710 and 1818.

The report also cast an indicative timetable.

Given the mess that is city centre access off the N3, can anyone say that these times would be uncompetitive at peak even now? Be fascinating to see what the real journey times by bus between Navan and Dublin are at peak.

LuckyLloyd

cgcsb wrote: »

Via Drogheda would give a very long journey time a lot longer than bus services I'd imagine. We also have no trains to run it. If we bought trains they'd have nowhere to go once they got to Drogheda because of capacity issues. We're going to get 10 minute frequency DARTs, as soon as the unions are defeated in their next strike. The result of that will be slower and less frequent intercity to Belfast and Sligo and slower less frequent outer commuter services. This situation will not improve until Igoes bust and is split up into a state owned infrastructure managing body and tendered out service operators. At that point the state will then have some confidence to put money into building new railways. As it is the state isn't going to run the risk of spending billions on DART underground and then have the drivers turn around and say they won't operate it for less than triple their salary again.

Ideological nonsense. Irish Rail is what we're stuck with, and they'll long outlast the infrastructure requirements we have. Build the ****ing infrastructure and, in this case, leverage existing infrastructure at minimal cost ala the successful Pheonix Park Tunnel reopening.

Add some line upgrades as part of the project and make it a €100m spend that bolsters the busiest section of heavy rail track in the country. Being worried about IE and the Unions is more short term thinking.

AngryLips

Why did this campaign die a death? The extension was started...

Hugh Jampton

AngryLips wrote: »

Why did this campaign die a death? The extension was started...

And bizarrely, no buses ever connected with the station at M3 Parkway to Navan. Few if any now connect with Trim. The NTA/TII/Whatever don't envisage the railway being rebuilt from Navan to M3 Parkway this side of 2030.

So, accessing M3 Parkway from Navan means either paying two tolls or going the back road.

Funny that.

XPS_Zero

cgcsb wrote: »

Via Drogheda would give a very long journey time a lot longer than bus services I'd imagine. We also have no trains to run it. If we bought trains they'd have nowhere to go once they got to Drogheda because of capacity issues. We're going to get 10 minute frequency DARTs, as soon as the unions are defeated in their next strike. The result of that will be slower and less frequent intercity to Belfast and Sligo and slower less frequent outer commuter services. This situation will not improve until IÉ goes bust and is split up into a state owned infrastructure managing body and tendered out service operators. At that point the state will then have some confidence to put money into building new railways. As it is the state isn't going to run the risk of spending billions on DART underground and then have the drivers turn around and say they won't operate it for less than triple their salary again.

Regardless of what transport model we use there is NO EXCUSE for why the govt does not slap CIE over the back of the head and say "you work for us, were in charge, do xyz by xxxx or you're fired". Its called unitary executive power, the executive is in charge of every agency and branch of the executive absolutely, the only area of the executive I'm aware of that is separated and can't take direct orders from the Taoiseach/Ministers is the DPP and the cops, and even then they are only prevented from STOPPING an investigation, they can start one. They just don't have the balls to take a heavier hand because they're afraid of unions well they need to stand up to them.

Carawaystick

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

2. Estimated travel time Navan-Clonsilla-Connolly 50 mins

Its 34 mins to M3 Parkway from Docklands, another 16 mins for the ~40 km to Navan seems implausible. It's hard to see how any economic case could be made to justify 40 km of railway solely for a town of 32000

Hugh Jampton

Carawaystick wrote: »

Its 34 mins to M3 Parkway from Docklands, another 16 mins for the ~40 km to Navan seems implausible. It's hard to see how any economic case could be made to justify 40 km of railway solely for a town of 32000

So how did it justify a motorway, according to your logic?

Wagon360

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So how did it justify a motorway, according to your logic?

Remember for some people motorway spending is all fine and dandy but spend 50c on a railway and they’ll scream blue murder.

Hugh Jampton

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Regardless of what transport model we use there is NO EXCUSE for why the govt does not slap CIE over the back of the head and say "you work for us, were in charge, do xyz by xxxx or you're fired". Its called unitary executive power, the executive is in charge of every agency and branch of the executive absolutely, the only area of the executive I'm aware of that is separated and can't take direct orders from the Taoiseach/Ministers is the DPP and the cops, and even then they are only prevented from STOPPING an investigation, they can start one. They just don't have the balls to take a heavier hand because they're afraid of unions well they need to stand up to them.

The then government did do that in 1981, during a period of electoral instability, when the minister for Transport ‘instructed’ CIÉ to institute a suburban service to Maynooth. It had a precarious existence for a long time but chaos results whenever it has been stripped out of West Dublin and North Kildare.

Hugh Jampton

Wagon360 wrote: »

Remember for some people motorway spending is all fine and dandy but spend 50c on a railway and they’ll scream blue murder.

A red line on a map that can be moved gives more opportunity for, shall we say, opportunism.

Carlos Orange

Carawaystick wrote: »

Its 34 mins to M3 Parkway from Docklands, another 16 mins for the ~40 km to Navan seems implausible. It's hard to see how any economic case could be made to justify 40 km of railway solely for a town of 32000

How many people are needed?
It isn't like the population won't have grown by the time it is completed. Infrastructure projects seem to take a while to complete.

BowSideChamp

A bus service to Navan is sufficient.

Carawaystick

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So how did it justify a motorway, according to your logic?

Because the N3 doesn't just serve Navan, it connects Cavan, Fermanagh and South Donegal also.

Stephen15

BowSideChamp wrote: »

A bus service to Navan is sufficient.

No because buses are sub par to trains

Wagon360

Stephen15 wrote: »

No because buses are sub par to trains

Yes indeed.

They have their place but on boards land they are the answer to all public transport questions.

LuckyLloyd

BowSideChamp wrote: »

A bus service to Navan is sufficient.

Says who?

end of the road

BowSideChamp wrote: »

A bus service to Navan is sufficient.

says who?

BowSideChamp

end of the road wrote: »

says who?

Says me.

There are 2.5k people commuting from Navan to Dublin according to the latest census. Hardly enough to justify building and running a train service that won't be quicker then the bus.

end of the road

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Says me.

There are 2.5k people commuting from Navan to Dublin according to the latest census. Hardly enough to justify building and running a train service that won't be quicker then the bus.

along with the commuting from navan to other areas which the railway would likely serve on it's way to dublin. so yeah the railway is justified.

BowSideChamp

end of the road wrote: »

along with the commuting from navan to other areas which the railway would likely serve on it's way to dublin. so yeah the railway is justified.

Keep dreaming it will never be built. No demand for it.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6www/

Carlos Orange

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Says me.

There are 2.5k people commuting from Navan to Dublin according to the latest census. Hardly enough to justify building and running a train service that won't be quicker then the bus.

800 people commute to Dublin from Maynooth by train. Does that justify a train?

BowSideChamp

psinno wrote: »

800 people commute to Dublin from Maynooth by train. Does that justify a train?

If the town was 50km away and required building a new train line and massive tax payer subventions then no.

Carawaystick

psinno wrote: »

800 people commute to Dublin from Maynooth by train. Does that justify a train?

You are comparing an operating line with many stops over a short distance and with long distance trains using the same line, with a 40 km unbuilt railway line which would only serve one stop.

end of the road

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Keep dreaming it will never be built. No demand for it.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6www/

there is a demand for it.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

there is a demand for it.

Where? How many? Demand can be 10 people. Any demand has to be justified and backed up by economic sense. The original route to Navan was a stupid idea sold by property developers many moons ago. It was never, ever a runner. While Dempsey and his cohorts were insisting on it, they were destroying the alignment while building the M3. Go follow the alignment from Dunboyne and you'll realise why it would cost hundreds of millions to serve Navan. That is certainly not justified.

The route via Drogheada had some merit and could have been done years ago if the will was there. But realistically we should never have been in a position where Navan needed a commuter railway to Dublin. Once the M3 opened, it was game over. It was always going to be that way despite the desperate attempts to try justify the original alignment.

Hugh Jampton

Carawaystick wrote: »

You are comparing an operating line with many stops over a short distance and with long distance trains using the same line, with a 40 km unbuilt railway line which would only serve one stop.

The Maynooth line spent years with four stops bypassing Blanchardstown and with rusty plastic seat trains and minimal passengers. CIÉ only ran it because they were told to. If Boards existed then members would have campaigned to close it for duplicating buses to little advantage. Yet it survived and then ultimately thrived, because the line and its services were upgraded to an acceptable standard of comfort, speed and frequency.

I’m not sure where the idea that there would be no stops between M3 Parkway and Navan comes from though, is there another website or document somewhere that makes this assertion?

BowSideChamp

end of the road wrote: »

there is a demand for it.

A whole study was done on the demand for a rail line. It's conclusion was there would not be a justified demand for a train and recommended a bus service.

JJJJNR

Trains are so 1800's, a Navan hyperloop is the only way to go, and would be easily done at a fraction of the cost of a train line.

Hugh Jampton

BowSideChamp wrote: »

A whole study was done on the demand for a rail line. It's conclusion was there would not be a justified demand for a train and recommended a bus service.

Looks like they only built the line to M3 Parkway then as a means of leveraging funds for the motorway from Europe. Treble brandies all round then for the landowners who happily had the M3 built on their land, and for the toll operator, getting ongoing shadow tolls from the taxpayer on top of the moneys chunked into their tollbooths everyday.

No wonder rail schemes are anathema to some.

Hugh Jampton

BowSideChamp wrote: »

A whole study was done on the demand for a rail line. It's conclusion was there would not be a justified demand for a train and recommended a bus service.

Good fisking of that report here

Zebra3

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

The Maynooth line spent years with four stops bypassing Blanchardstown and with rusty plastic seat trains and minimal passengers. CIonly ran it because they were told to. If Boards existed then members would have campaigned to close it for duplicating buses to little advantage.

The Maynooth line only duplicates a bus route between Maynooth and Leixlip LB.

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Looks like they only built the line to M3 Parkway then as a means of leveraging funds for the motorway from Europe. Treble brandies all round then for the landowners who happily had the M3 built on their land, and for the toll operator, getting ongoing shadow tolls from the taxpayer on top of the moneys chunked into their tollbooths everyday.

No wonder rail schemes are anathema to some.

Don't forget that a certain political party can then financially gain from all the donations they get from the toll company who have been guaranteed profits if there isn't enough traffic. Privitising profits, socialising losses.

XPS_Zero

Zebra3 wrote: »

The Maynooth line only duplicates a bus route between Maynooth and Leixlip LB.



Don't forget that a certain political party can then financially gain from all the donations they get from the toll company who have been guaranteed profits if there isn't enough traffic. Privitising profits, socialising losses.

The same party that proposed a constitutional ammendment (and legislation) banning corporate donations and that no longer has those kinds of policies

The country could use a good stimulus package now and if this routes viable it should be added in with the Metro and Luas extensions, as Swords and Maynooth shows busses doing the route are often not enough trains are faster and more efficient.

CarlosHarpic

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Good fisking of that report here

The detailed study for the Navan commuter corridor was undertaken by Ms. Dieckmann Cogill, an American transport planner

any further questions?

blanch152

The building of the M3 ended this debate.

Navan/M3 Parkway/City Centre express bus route is the way to go.

Ditto from places like Kells and Trim with lesser frequency.

What happened? They built the WRC between Athenry and Ennis instead. Thar one gleaming pile of *** of infrastructure killed the possibility of so many other potential rail projects