Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

Vinnie222

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is definitely a huge problem with painkiller use in rugby. Bernard Jackman spoke on it earlier in the season and it was pretty shocking to hear the amount of guys who need them to stay on the field

Lots of ex players have also spoke freely about the use of painkiller and Tues in the ganme and their addition to painkillers

prawnsambo

Carlo del Fava was interviewed on Off The Ball am. Some quotes and links here.

The Specialist

prawnsambo wrote: »

Carlo del Fava was interviewed on Off The Ball am. Some quotes and links here.

I see Chris Henry was in full hypocrite mode yesterday on the topic of Grobler, despite him playing alongside Carlo in 2009.

The Specialist

The Specialist wrote: »

I see Chris Henry was in full hypocrite mode yesterday on the topic of Grobler, despite him playing alongside Carlo in 2009.

Yeah, he should have packed up and left Ulster the second they signed Carlo.

Nothing hypocritical about it at all, he doesn't decide who he plays alongside whether he likes it or not.

The Specialist

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, he should have packed up and left Ulster the second they signed Carlo.

Nothing hypocritical about it at all, he doesn't decide who he plays alongside whether he likes it or not.

He had nothing to say about that, though has plenty to say about Grobler. Hypocrite.

irishbucsfan

The Specialist wrote: »

He had nothing to say about that, though has plenty to say about Grobler. Hypocrite.

No. It would be hypocrisy if he had said it was OK at the time.

Former Former

If you go back to the current Munster players in a few years and ask them what they think of Grobler's presence, they will absolutely say they weren't comfortable with it. 100%.

There are more red herrings in this thread than a communist fishmongers.

Vinnie222

Former Former wrote: »

If you go back to the current Munster players in a few years and ask them what they think of Grobler's presence, they will absolutely say they weren't comfortable with it. 100%.

There are more red herrings in this thread than a communist fishmongers.

I doubt that , how many ulster players came out against Del Favas . And who was del Fava's lock partner in his first season at Ulster only Justin Harrison who was banned for racial abuse 5 months before joining Ulster and banned for cocaine use the season after leaving Ulster.

Tomtom364

How is a zero tolerance policy being understood to mean the IRFU shouldnt have given the go ahead for the signing.

Zero tolerance means that under no circumstances should the act go unpunished.
Not that the person should be punished for the rest of their career.

Nor does it mean they believe the punishment should be more severe then was handing out. Just that all infractions should receive the stated punishment regardless of circumstances

Former Former

Vinnie222 wrote: »

I doubt that , how many ulster players came out against Del Favas . And who was del Fava's lock partner in his first season at Ulster only Justin Harrison who was banned for racial abuse 5 months before joining Ulster and banned for cocaine use the season after leaving Ulster.

Ah listen, if we have to go back to something that happened ten years ago for a reason to be outraged and convince ourselves that it's an anti-Munster conspiracy, then we're pretty hard up.

Del Fava is gone a long, long time. The game is constantly changing. Ten years before Del Fava, the IRFU was ignoring positive drug tests without so much as a hearing. Ten years before that, it was a bigger offence to accept money for playing the game than it was to take drugs.

Things move on.

Yes, the current Munster players (a lot of them at least) will be deeply uncomfortable with his presence. It's foolish to think otherwise.

The Specialist

The Specialist wrote: »

He had nothing to say about that, though has plenty to say about Grobler. Hypocrite.

Criticise one of his teammates?

There are undoubtedly those in the Munster camp who have a problem with Grobler but there isn't a hope any of them will step out of line and criticise Munster / IRFU over it.

Vinnie222

Vinnie222 wrote: »

I doubt that , how many ulster players came out against Del Favas . And who was del Fava's lock partner in his first season at Ulster only Justin Harrison who was banned for racial abuse 5 months before joining Ulster and banned for cocaine use the season after leaving Ulster.

You might want to have a look at Jonny Hollands AMA to see what a very recent former player thinks about it.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

Ah listen, if we have to go back to something that happened ten years ago for a reason to be outraged and convince ourselves that it's an anti-Munster conspiracy, then we're pretty hard up.

Del Fava is gone a long, long time. The game is constantly changing. Ten years before Del Fava, the IRFU was ignoring positive drug tests without so much as a hearing. Ten years before that, it was a bigger offence to accept money for playing the game than it was to take drugs.

Things move on.

Yes, the current Munster players (a lot of them at least) will be deeply uncomfortable with his presence. It's foolish to think otherwise.

There is a part of me that would love to see how this thread would read if Leinster had done this.

Vinnie222

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You might want to have a look at Jonny Hollands AMA to see what a very recent former player thinks about it.

J Holland never played with him

Vinnie222

Vinnie222 wrote: »

J Holland never played with him

So a very recent player has an issue with it, but you are happy to state that no current players do?

Vinnie222

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So a very recent player has an issue with it, but you are happy to state that no current players do?

Do you know personally that they do ? I can only go by what Conor M and Peter O M have said

Former Former

The other thing that hasn't really been discussed on this thread is that Van Graan has been given the mother of all hospital passes by Rassie and IRFU. I've a lot of sympathy for him.

Vinnie222

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Do you know personally that they do ? I can only go by what Conor M and Peter O M have said

There is no way of proving it unless every player is anonymously canvassed on the issue which isn't going to happen.

That said I think it's infinitely more likely that a number of them have an issue than absolutely none of them. It's fantasy to suggest that no one in the squad has an issue with a convicted doper.

thebaz

The Indo which really broke the story with Paul Kimmage over the top analysis - now giving Del Favas story with the headline :-

" 'I wasn't big enough, wasn't strong enough' - Former Ulster lock opens up on why he took steroids "


I think the whole thing is pretty low level journalism just to sell papers, do young impressionable rugby players need to hear this or his excuses ?

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no way of proving it unless every player is anonymously canvassed on the issue which isn't going to happen.

That said I think it's infinitely more likely that a number of them have an issue than absolutely none of them. It's fantasy to suggest that no one in the squad has an issue with a convicted doper.

Conor Murray in London Times:

The scrum half told The Times: “We had a good chat at the end of training because it’s affecting him badly, all the stuff people have been saying and writing and going after the club. It’s a time we need to remain tight and ignore this ****, and it is ****. It is people creating something.

“GG is part of the Munster family and it is important we stay together,” he added. “Everyone knew his situation and everyone accepted it. It’s a storm at the moment and it’s not nice. Some of the media are saying, ‘Take drug kids and you can get a contract at Munster’, but that’s an awful way to angle it.

connemara man

thebaz wrote: »

The Indo which really broke the story with Paul Kimmage over the top analysis - now giving Del Favas story with the headline :-

" 'I wasn't big enough, wasn't strong enough' - Former Ulster lock opens up on why he took steroids "


I think the whole thing is pretty low level journalism just to sell papers, do young impressionable rugby players need to hear this or his excuses ?

I'd go out and listen to it the full off the ball interview. He comes across very well and the as much as they can avoid GG as they wanted to have the larger conversation.

irishbucsfan

Basically if it wasn't for an injury to Johnny Holland, there would have been only one person in the Munster squad who would have had a problem with this.

If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

Trojan

CM wrote:

"Some of the media are saying, ‘Take drug kids and you can get a contract at Munster’, but that’s an awful way to angle it."

Awful and all as it it, that's precisely what Munster are saying when they circle the wagons and double down on "he served his time".

Just what incentive is there for a young 19 year old who is skilled but just a bit too small to make the cut NOT to take the risk? The prize is a pro rugby contract and possibly even an international career. Even if they're caught, two years is nothing. And then they've served their time.

Murray and the rest of his teammates HAVE to support him publicly- that's just the nature of rugby. The fanbase do not.

Neil3030

I have to say that the coverage is really starting to annoy me. Half an hour AGAIN devoted to this on Wednesday night rugby on OTB, when the Irish squad was announced, and the final pool stages of the Heino are this weekend - both of which took a complete back seat to the hand wringing. The segment even featured a taped interview where Ger Gilroy asked Philip Browne questions like: "Why are you poisoning the Munster brand", "You brought a cheat in", "You could pay his contract up, so he doesn't have to play". This is completely over the top, I'm sorry. At this stage I wonder if it's a case that the media are trying to claw back some credibility after being caught completely sleeping when this guy signed.

Trojan

Trojan wrote: »

Awful and all as it it, that's precisely what Munster are saying when they circle the wagons and double down on "he served his time".

Just what incentive is there for a young 19 year old who is skilled but just a bit too small to make the cut NOT to take the risk? The prize is a pro rugby contract and possibly even an international career. Even if they're caught, two years is nothing. And then they've served their time.

Murray and the rest of his teammates HAVE to support him publicly- that's just the nature of rugby. The fanbase do not.

The actual Munster press release said that he was an example to the Academy players.

It may be the stupidest thing I've read this week and I read the comments sections on news sites.

prawnsambo

Neil3030 wrote: »

I have to say that the coverage is really starting to annoy me. Half an hour AGAIN devoted to this on Wednesday night rugby on OTB, when the Irish squad was announced, and the final pool stages of the Heino are this weekend - both of which took a complete back seat to the hand wringing. The segment even featured a taped interview where Ger Gilroy asked Philip Browne questions like: "Why are you poisoning the Munster brand", "You brought a cheat in", "You could pay his contract up, so he doesn't have to play". This is completely over the top, I'm sorry. At this stage I wonder if it's a case that the media are trying to claw back some credibility after being caught completely sleeping when this guy signed.

Yeah, there's probably a bit of that in it alright. But then again, we're still talking about it too. :rolleyes:

The Rape of Lucretia

Former Former wrote: »

The other thing that hasn't really been discussed on this thread is that Van Graan has been given the mother of all hospital passes by Rassie and IRFU. I've a lot of sympathy for him.

Why ? The guy is a dirty rotten cheat, and is lucky to be still in the game/profession as it is. And in that hybrid lies the problem. He didnt just commit a crime and serve his time, or commit professional malpractice and mend his ways, as might be the case in other spheres of society - sport is different. Despite being a profession to some, it is still at its core, a game. An artificial contest according to agreed rules, with success or winning, an ultimately meaningless event outside the game and only existing within the artificial construct of the sport. And success in it only has meaning if these artifical rules are observed. He didnt. In a big way. Such 'sport'men caught, should be flung out. They are not going to gaol, they are not being impeded from living otherwise free lives, and are able to earn an income in any other profession that they choose. Zero sympathy. And shame on Munster for sullying the rich heritage of Munster rugby.

prawnsambo

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Why ? The guy is a dirty rotten cheat, and is lucky to be still in the game/profession as it is. And in that hybrid lies the problem. He didnt just commit a crime and serve his time, or commit professional malpractice and mend his ways, as might be the case in other spheres of society - sport is different. Despite being a profession to some, it is still at its core, a game. An artificial contest according to agreed rules, with success or winning, an ultimately meaningless event outside the game and only existing within the artificial construct of the sport. And success in it only has meaning if these artifical rules are observed. He didnt. In a big way. Zero sympathy. Such 'sport'men caught, should be flung out. They are not going to gaol, they are not being impeded from living otherwise free lives, and are able to earn an income in any other profession that they choose. Zero sympathy. And shame on Munster for sullying the rich heritage of Munster rugby.

Classic rant!

Shame you didn't properly read the post you replied to. :pac:

paddy no 11

Trojan wrote: »

Awful and all as it it, that's precisely what Munster are saying when they circle the wagons and double down on "he served his time".

Just what incentive is there for a young 19 year old who is skilled but just a bit too small to make the cut NOT to take the risk? The prize is a pro rugby contract and possibly even an international career. Even if they're caught, two years is nothing. And then they've served their time.

Murray and the rest of his teammates HAVE to support him publicly- that's just the nature of rugby. The fanbase do not.

Absolutely supporters should be up in arms. Only people in favour of grobler are those over the top blow hards

Former Former

Neil3030 wrote: »

I have to say that the coverage is really starting to annoy me. Half an hour AGAIN devoted to this on Wednesday night rugby on OTB, when the Irish squad was announced, and the final pool stages of the Heino are this weekend - both of which took a complete back seat to the hand wringing. The segment even featured a taped interview where Ger Gilroy asked Philip Browne questions like: "Why are you poisoning the Munster brand", "You brought a cheat in", "You could pay his contract up, so he doesn't have to play". This is completely over the top, I'm sorry. At this stage I wonder if it's a case that the media are trying to claw back some credibility after being caught completely sleeping when this guy signed.

The story is still a story because Munster and IRFU had the exact same stance as you; they just wanted it to go away, and they figured it would. Just like the way no one noticed or cared when he signed because of the Lions, it was a good bet that European Rugby and Six Nations squad would hog the attention and it would fade out. So they kept the heads down and waited.

But it didn't pan out that way. It was easy enough to dismiss the initial questions as click bait in a slow week and posters here jumped all over that, the old "fake news- sad!" defence. So far, so good.

This week, however , the tone changed. Donal Lenihan - a bona fide Munster legend, an Ireland captain - wrote a column on it. Former player after former player from ALL provinces came out against it, you had Henshaw looking very uncomfortable when questioned - so it became impossible to ignore.

And then they decided to respond. Philip Browne gave the most garbled answers in which he simultaneously defended Grobler and hung him out to dry. If you want a laugh, watch the growing terror on the face of the IRFU press guy as a car crash unfolds on his watch.

Munster then came out with a statement that was just incredibly ham fisted, it's beyond belief that it was drafted by a pro sports organisation.

Both Munster and Browne just created more questions than they answered so on it rumbles.

And all the while, there's the narrative building that everyone is agin'us, that this is only a story because it's Munster, and some fans are getting their backs up so much that we were facing the prospect of not only having a "drugs cheat" playing at Thomond but getting a rapturous ovation for doing so. That forced Munster's hand on his selection for Castres. They simply couldn't pick him. Now we have a guy who played 20 games for Racing last season togging out for Munster A in an obscure turkey shoot in Cork.

So yeah, this story could easily have blown over by now. The fact that it hasn't is due to an organisation stonewalling legitimate media questions and hoping it all went away. If Munster/IRFU had headed this off at the pass with a vanilla statement on day one or two, a few bullet points was all that was needed, then it would have been a story for a day or two and we'd all have gone back to discussing Zebo.

That it's run for so long is not the fault of the dastardly media.

Owta Control

Trojan wrote: »

Awful and all as it it, that's precisely what Munster are saying when they circle the wagons and double down on "he served his time".

Just what incentive is there for a young 19 year old who is skilled but just a bit too small to make the cut NOT to take the risk? The prize is a pro rugby contract and possibly even an international career. Even if they're caught, two years is nothing. And then they've served their time.

Murray and the rest of his teammates HAVE to support him publicly- that's just the nature of rugby. The fanbase do not.

Ruadhrai O'Connor?

irishbucsfan

The IRFU could have made this go away on day one with a few lines:

IRFU Chief Executive Philip Browne wishes to acknowledge the Union's role in causing unintentional concern and confusion around their policy on performance enhancing drugs.

The IRFU is fully committed to eliminating the misuse of drugs from rugby in Ireland and has already undertaken numerous awareness raising campaigns involving volunteers and senior IRFU staff from both the high performance and grassroots participation areas of the game.

As part of that process, it is intended to create a focused steering group co-chaired by (Blazer #1) and (Repentent-drug-cheat #1) to review the current strategy surrounding this area of the game and to make recommendations about the direction of future signings and policy on drugs going forward.

The work carried out by the steering group will contribute to building a framework for a long term strategic plan on the future of drug enforcement policy in Ireland. It is anticipated they will be able to deliver a report at the end of the current season.

This would have completely taken the sting out of the whole problem because the answer to any questions from any journalist would become "we'll wait on the outcome of the committee". The articles would have disappeared immediately. Whether or not the committee was completely meaningless would be down to how much the IRFU actually care about PEDs.

The IRFU are MORE than capable of doing this as well. I know that because I stole the above wording from a press release they released last year in an attempt to clean up another mess they created for themselves.

Owta Control

prawnsambo wrote: »

Classic rant!

Shame you didn't properly read the post you replied to. :pac:

Or use proper paragraphs......

"Ain't nobody got time fo' dat"

Neil3030

Former Former wrote: »

The story is still a story because Munster and IRFU had the exact same stance as you; they just wanted it to go away, and they figured it would. Just like the way no one noticed or cared when he signed because of the Lions, it was a good bet that European Rugby and Six Nations squad would hog the attention and it would fade out. So they kept the heads down and waited.

But it didn't pan out that way. It was easy enough to dismiss the initial questions as click bait in a slow week and posters here jumped all over that, the old "fake news- sad!" defence. So far, so good.

This week, however , the tone changed. Donal Lenihan - a bona fide Munster legend, an Ireland captain - wrote a column on it. Former player after former player from ALL provinces came out against it, you had Henshaw looking very uncomfortable when questioned - so it became impossible to ignore.

And then they decided to respond. Philip Browne gave the most garbled answers in which he simultaneously defended Grobler and hung him out to dry. If you want a laugh, watch the growing terror on the face of the IRFU press guy as a car crash unfolds on his watch.

Munster then came out with a statement that was just incredibly ham fisted, it's beyond belief that it was drafted by a pro sports organisation.

Both Munster and Browne just created more questions than they answered so on it rumbles.

And all the while, there's the narrative building that everyone is agin'us, that this is only a story because it's Munster, and some fans are getting their backs up so much that we were facing the prospect of not only having a "drugs cheat" playing at Thomond but getting a rapturous ovation for doing so. That forced Munster's hand on his selection for Castres. They simply couldn't pick him. Now we have a guy who played 20 games for Racing last season togging out for Munster A in an obscure turkey shoot in Cork.

So yeah, this story could easily have blown over by now. The fact that it hasn't is due to an organisation stonewalling legitimate media questions and hoping it all went away. If Munster/IRFU had headed this off at the pass with a vanilla statement on day one or two, a few bullet points was all that was needed, then it would have been a story for a day or two and we'd all have gone back to discussing Zebo.

That it's run for so long is not the fault of the dastardly media.

Key point highlighted in bold for me - none of the questions put by Gilroy to Browne could have been preemptively addressed with any press release other than a grovelling apology and a promise to either bench the player indefinitely or release him from his contract.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

Key point highlighted in bold for me - none of the questions put by Gilroy to Browne could have been preemptively addressed with any press release other than a grovelling apology and a promise to either bench the player indefinitely or release him from his contract.

The point of the statement is that he doesn't then need to answer those questions.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

The point of the statement is that he doesn't then need to answer those questions.

I think the difficulty for the IRFU has been that the two people involved in GGs recruitment are not available to answer the questions - Rassie & Nucifora (understandably).

Just heard again Newstalk at lunchtime today going off on another rant about it and how the Munster 'brand' is now destroyed by this!

Informative article in the Examiner today where they interview Dr Una May, the Director of Participation and Ethics for Sport Ireland.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/other-sports/its-not-up-to-us-to-make-those-moral-judgments-466054.html

Dr May, however, believes the testing in Irish rugby is appropriate to the level of risk. While figures are not yet available for 2017, Sport Ireland conducted 113 tests on rugby players in 2016 (out of a total of 1002 tests), making it the third most tested sport behind athletics (250) and cycling (155).
“Within the context rugby is fairly highly tested,” says May. “The IRFU is the only governing body that pays for tests in addition to the national programme.”


And while rugby players don’t face the same stringent whereabouts policies as those in individual sports, May notes that Sport Ireland has the ability to test players outside of training times if required.


“We’re quite targeted in rugby. We don’t go in and look for random players. We generally go in with a player in mind to test.”

Real problem seems to be with schools rugby where there is no testing. Once kids hit an academy or play underage, they will be tested.

irishbucsfan

What a shock, a director for Sport Ireland who are paid by the IRFU to test Irish rugby players, won't publically criticise the testing policies of the IRFU.

Owta Control

Third most tested sport.....how many professional cyclists have we in this country...or top level athletes.... I'd bet a damn small fraction of our rugby players.

Tim Robbins

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You dont need to make a comparison at every opp between the organisations and quite often in some areas you are quit sanctimonious about differences....t

Play the argument, not the man...

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What a shock, a director for Sport Ireland who are paid by the IRFU to test Irish rugby players, won't publically criticise the testing policies of the IRFU.

Sport Ireland has an excellent reputation for its national anti doping programme. John Tracy (CEO) has always been very strong on it. This woman has been running the programme for the last 17 years.

The IRFU pay for extra testing, not the national drug testing programme.

joseywhales

Deleted User wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A lifetime ban from rugby or sports is illegal.  Again.

No point even considering it, the EU courts have made it clear.  Until they change their minds there will be none.

It’s off topic anyway.

If Munster believe that someone banned for doping should never play for Munster, then in order for them to be morally consistent they must also believe that such a player should be defacto banned from all professional rugby unless they can identify why Munster should be of a higher moral standard than other professional clubs.

It might be illegal for a rugby board to impose lifetime bans but leading clubs can create the social pressure of refusing to ever sign one, thereby pushing former dopers to the periphery of the professional game. Munster have an opportunity to show leadership in that regard here, to lead the change in culture.
I think in order to avoid moral hypocrisy, if you believe its wrong that munster should ever sign him then you should also believe that noone should ever sign him. That's why I think it is relevant to discuss the morality of a lifetime ban of a former drugs cheat. It will be the end result if all clubs refuse to sign one.

There is no obligation on any club to sign anyone.

I don't think anyone should be signing players who fundamentally tear at the fabric of the sports they play.

That the stakeholders of those games cannot ban them for life is a legal issue. Once again, there is no obligation on any club to sign any player. If a drugs cheat cannot find employment, then that is it. Be they a cyclist, a sprinter or indeed a rugby player. Nobody is compelled to offer them employment.

Fwiw, there are a few other circumstances which are easily understood to many as to why a player should not be deemed 'employable' by anyone in their competition. And I'm sure we all know that. It's just a matter of where people draw the line tbh.

So my view is that the signing is wrong because I believe he should have a lifetime ban and as such Munster should not play him in lieu of the legal framework to ban him.

Owta Control

joseywhales wrote: »

So my view is that the signing is wrong because I believe he should have a lifetime ban and as such Munster should not play him in lieu of the legal framework to ban him.

Who cares?

joseywhales

Owta Control wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

So my view is that the signing is wrong because I believe he should have a lifetime ban and as such Munster should not play him in lieu of the legal framework to ban him.

Who cares?

It is the heading of the thread

jm08

Owta Control wrote: »

Third most tested sport.....how many professional cyclists have we in this country...or top level athletes.... I'd bet a damn small fraction of our rugby players.

Much higher risk for athletics and cycling. Carlo Del Valva said in his interview on Newstalk that when he took them he didn't realise that they could be detected for up to 18 months afterwards.

Thats not the same with athletics, cycling and swimming - they need to be tested frequently.

Owta Control

joseywhales wrote: »

It is the heading of the thread

Well your view is wrong

irishbucsfan

Owta Control wrote: »

Well your view is wrong

Hahaha

"Your opinion is wrong"

Great stuff

Owta Control

jm08 wrote: »

Much higher risk for athletics and cycling. Carlo Del Valva said in his interview on Newstalk that when he took them he didn't realise that they could be detected for up to 18 months afterwards.

Thats not the same with athletics, cycling and swimming - they need to be tested frequently.

And it's quite irrelevant tbf...we have over 120 professional Rugby players playing at the highest level ...we have less than a dozen cyclists and athletes at the same level

Owta Control

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hahaha

"Your opinion is wrong"

Great stuff

No, his view is wrong as a lifetime ban is not applicable...and if he had studied the prepared material, he would have known this... he gets an E for effort

irishbucsfan

Owta Control wrote: »

No, his view is wrong as a lifetime ban is not applicable...and if he had studied the prepared material, he would have known this... he gets an E for effort

I don't think you read the post in that case. Clearly knew that a lifetime ban is not possible.

jm08

Owta Control wrote: »

And it's quite irrelevant tbf...we have over 120 professional Rugby players playing at the highest level ...we have less than a dozen cyclists and athletes at the same level

And they have targetted who is likely to dope. Otherwise, they are in a controlled environment unlike say athletics and cycling where the athletes disappear off for months on end for high altitude training etc.

The real problem is the lack of testing in schools rugby - they are the ones who are most likely to chance it as there is no chance of them getting caught.