Was Catholic Ireland better than Modern Ireland?

Odhinn

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

.....the overall notion of charity and conciousness of the poor was good. Other than that its hard to say. They lorded over a society where hypocrisy was the norm, and the worst thing you could do was not actually act outside "catholic morality" but be open and honest about it.

(in fairness I was told that by a priest but I thought he was taking the piss at the time.)

pemay

If I knew what speak and spell even was I might agree with you!

The problem is simple enough. Take the bad parts of the catholic church and do away with it, such as hidden abuse. Keep the very good parts, such as it being a moral instiller of hope and guidance.

Keep the affordability of old Ireland, such as reasonable expectation for progressing in life, whether that be the ability to have a job and family and place to live. Embrace the new wealth created in present day Ireland without it being at the expense of a normal progression through life (home, family, children, decent employment stability/prospects etc.

And so on and so forth. We just continually fail to recognise what is good and bad at any given moment in time. We throw the baby out with the bath water at every given opportunity (lots of babies!)

Odhinn

pemay wrote: »

............

And so on and so forth. We just continually fail to recognise what is good and bad at any given moment in time. We throw the baby out with the bath water at every given opportunity (lots of babies!)

Jaysus no - we're going to have enough baby talk over the next few months.

pemay

Odhinn wrote: »

Jaysus no - we're going to have enough baby talk over the next few months.

Yet another example of dividing 100% of society to suit the tastes of a small few percent. "Youre with me or against me!"

That's all we are collectively good for nowadays, finding ways to split and divide each other along every single line possibly imaginable. Just cant learn from the past at all, or we have become so comfortable/fatigued from loss of purpose, socially speaking, that we are finding fault for lack of anything else to do. Like OCD, but on a population scale.

Staying on topic, this is one thing we had nailed after the world wars, that we shouldn't be at each others throats over everything, and it was a grand old time for decades afterwards (compared to war, nicknamed the boomer generation in some places for good reason). That's an example of the past being very good in Ireland and elsewhere, collectively working together to improve our lot.

After the abortion referendum I wonder whats next to obsess and argue over?

The great Marmite referenda-wars of 2020? Will you be a pro-abortionist in the Marmite camp, an anti-abortionist in the marmite camp, a pro-abortionist in the anti-marmite camp, an anti-abortionist in the anti-marmite camp?

So many divisions in society to enrage! So many tribes to choose and war against! Oh my!

eeguy

pemay wrote: »

Yet another example of dividing 100% of society to suit the tastes of a small few percent. "Youre with me or against me!"

That's all we are collectively good for nowadays, finding ways to split and divide each other along every single line possibly imaginable. Just cant learn from the past at all, or we have become so comfortable/fatigued from loss of purpose, socially speaking, that we are finding fault for lack of anything else to do. Like OCD, but on a population scale.

Every discussion is usually dominated by those with the most extreme views. The opinions of the majority, who usually sit somewhere in the middle are drowned out and swamped by a wave of hate and vitriol. Its not unique to Ireland.

pemay

eeguy wrote: »

Every discussion is usually dominated by those with the most extreme views. The opinions of the majority, who usually sit somewhere in the middle are drowned out and swamped by a wave of hate and vitriol. Its not unique to Ireland.

It certainly isn't unique to Ireland. But it does appear to be unique to western developed nations. Why would the most advanced, equitable, and free countries in the world be plagued with perceived social issues? Its a bit of a riddle!

One explanation, as I offered above, is simple complacency. Perhaps we have advanced to such a state of "comfort" that we have developed a psychological schism of sorts. Without anything to do, we are literally looking for (and thereby finding!) problems that don't exist (or at most, are a concern to a very relative few). If these people that insist on driving social disharmony ACTUALLY cared about what they CLAIM to care about, theyd be off in droves to the under-developed world to show them the light, so to speak.

But they arent. That would require genuine motivation and sincerity of caring, which they do not possess.

Another possible explanation is the simple imperative of biology. Linked to the above, perhaps we can just not exist in peace. We are naturally determined to find war. And we are more likely to search for war when there is peace. Just as we are more likely to search for peace when there is war.

Lastly, your point about most people not being engaged in the enragement-flavour of the week......the minority will scream and shout and fuss and bitch and moan until they drag everyone into the fake dilemma they have created.

Its too bad!

eeguy

People have too much time on their hands. Everyone wants a cause to believe in and every generation had their social revolution, for women, for civil rights, for liberalism and for equality.

We live in a very tolerant, equal society. Not perfect by any means, but far more equal than in any other time. People are picking over what's left and have absolutely no leadership or common goal.

There is no modern Susan B Anthony, Emily Davidson, Martin Luther or Malcolm X.

Billy86

pemay wrote: »

Keep the affordability of old Ireland, such as reasonable expectation for progressing in life, whether that be the ability to have a job and family and place to live.

Embrace the new wealth created in present day Ireland without it being at the expense of a normal progression through life (home, family, children, decent employment stability/prospects etc.

If this is an argument about ways that 'old Ireland' used to be better, there's small problem with this one!

pemay

Billy86 wrote: »

If this is an argument about ways that 'old Ireland' used to be better, there's small problem with this one!

Its a matter of picking and choosing different times, all falling under "the past".

There was no shortage of work following the wars. There was certainly a stability of jobs (jobs for life used to be widespread) that came later still, but not anymore.

So instead of stacking those examples of "old Ireland" and carrying them through to now and beyond, we just lose them. Same with a lot of countries I suppose.

Old Ireland was vastly superior to modern day Ireland in many ways. Pity we couldn't have kept them and added to the vast superiorities of today.

Give it a few more years and we might as well be a multinational company instead of a country. Except we neither own the companies or have any say in when they decide to leave, taking our precarious economy with them, vastly overpriced housing and all. Just no long term thinking whatsoever!

Just imagine the shambles that would be left if they decided to leave in the space of a couple years, we'd be destroyed. Another generation of feckless eejits left holding ridiculous mortgages to repay on sheds, the misery and despair and "I told you so's" and "the country's nearly out of money!" and the bailouts and the political parties pointing fingers and the scapegoats and the bankers. All set against the background of a society irreparably fractured by progressives who insist on disharmony and get it every time. Glorious.

This is hardly crystal ball stuff, those companies are here because of corporation tax, everything else is secondary. As soon as another punk government offers them a better deal, they'll be off. Its very, very, very likely. Just a matter of when.

We didn't have that to worry about before!

Rant over

Billy86

'Following the wars' we were not an independent state though (and I don't know about you but I'd rather not still be under British rule if we're to compare timelines), and the 1950s following independence were disastrous in terms of employment. Even being one of the worst hit countries in the entire world, as a small country, in the worst recession seen anywhere in nearly a century, the absolute peak that unemployment rates hit during the recession were pretty much the norm though the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s.

Mortgage increases are also far more of a Dublin/commuter belt problem than Ireland generally. If someone wishes to go down that route a house can be bought for €75,000 in a number of parts of Ireland, which going by inflation calculators in 1970 would work out to £3,500 (€75k in 2017 = €58.45k in 2002 = IRE £46.75k at that same time = IRE £3.46k in 1970). Employment opportunities may not be as good as in and around Dublin, Cork etc but they're probably still better than they were decades ago in those same areas.

The cold truth of it is, without those multinationals we would likely still be seeing half of the country emigrating, with sky high unemployment rates from those remaining. We should be looking for avenues to move away from them/create other revenue streams, but they've been of undoubted benefit in helping us move from the poorest country in Europe to one of the best off. Now I definitely agree we need to make more efforts to open up other avenues as well, but economically speaking there's really not any argument that can be made against them having been a net benefit to Ireland over the last few decades.

Hotblack Desiato

kylith wrote: »

I keep thinking that Dunnes should rip out the interiors and have a big Dunnes like in Cornelscourt. I go there fairly often cos it's the only place in the area that does the nut milks Himself likes. It's hardly Beiruit.

That's pretty much what they're now doing, thread on Crumlin Shopping Centre here.

mikemac2

Asus X540L wrote: »

Hardly any crime(Dublin went from having the lowest murder rate for a capital city in Europe to one of the highest during the Tiger), no African gangs terrorizing North Dublin, women not going around dressed like prossies.

Never hear of the animal gangs? The same went on in Glasgow and even Peaky Blinders shows the gangs in Birmingham.

Todays wannabe hardmen skangers you see on the boardwalk would be dead in 10 minutes if they were transported to 1930's inner city Dublin

Animal Gangs were made up of young males ranging from teenagers to men in their 20s from a variety of inner-city areas.

They used a range of weapons in their clashes: iron bars, knuckle dusters, iron hooks, caps with razor blades sewn into the brim, tyre irons and bicycle chains.

Potatoes or apples spiked with razor blades were also popular.

https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-animals-who-prowled-1930s-dublin-26878497.html

The nickname reflects both the savagery of their regular clashes with other gangs, the police and the paramilitaries and a brutal street culture that eventually passed into urban legend.

By the 1930s, Dublin's north inner city had been deeply impoverished for generations. Its slums and tenements were notorious for their squalor and degradation.

Unemployment was rife and the area had high levels of crime and prostitution.

It was so dangerous, dirty and poor that even the police steered clear of the neighbourhood, which stretched from Henry Street to Amiens Street, Gardiner Street and up to Summerhill.

EdgeCase

I can't really think of very many things about Ireland in the 1980s or early 90s that was better than now.

Economically it wasn't in a very good place.

The infrastructure was very underdeveloped. We had famously awful roads without any serious motorways other than a few bits of bypasses. The rail network was in bits with very clapped out old trains. The airports weren't great. The telecommunications network was only ok and was grossly overpriced compared to the US or elsewhere. There were very limited retail options compared to the UK or France etc and it was light-years behind the US. The universities were doing their best, but with pretty basic campuses compared to what we have now. Dublin and Cork were in a haze of smoke all winter to the point you could hardly breath. The urban waterways were absolutely stinking with pollution and raw sewage. It wasn't unusual to see toilet paper and worse floating down the Liffey. The standard of cars on the road was also FAR worse. It's rare to see a real banger on the road in Ireland these days whereas back then it was pretty common.

Meanwhile, it was socially oppressed by an establishment that was trying to mould it into some kind of holy catholic version of Alabama. There was limited and controversial access to contraception, no divorce (apparently marriages were perfect back then HA!), you couldn't be gay (well you could but, you had to stay in the closet and if you tried anything in terms of practical applications of your homosexuality, you could end up in front of a judge for a humiliating trial), there was very limited access to international television, there was still extensive censorship certainly well into the 1980s.

Then in the background of all that the Northern Ireland troubles were in full swing if you went a couple of hours up the bumpy non-motorway to the border.

Sure it was 'fun' if you were a rebel and raging against the machine and all of that. Maybe that's why we had such a great run of outstanding music for a while .. Many oppressed places / times of political turmoil and crappy economies produce great art.

I'm not saying that the entire 20th century until the mid 1990s here was all dismal, there were obviously nice parts too, but I'll take 2018 Ireland and its first world problems over the backwards, traditionalist dump that this place largely was decades ago.

mikemac2

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

It's amazing to see people proclaim the 90s as some sort of crime free golden age. Crime was probably worse then. A journalist was assasinated for reporting on gang activities, that seems unthinkable now.

Could be more the 80's but maybe early 90's too. If you heard the wail of sirens on a Friday that was the Friday angelus

Payroll robberies don't happen much anymore with paypath but it was a huge issue at one time. I hope the van drivers got danger money!

BuboBubo

No it wasn't.

It was a country of fear, my maternal grandmother prayed morning noon and night and I strongly believe that it was borne out of fear. Fear of Priests, fear of the unknown, and believing all the bullsh1t the Catholic Church was filling her with. She died just before all the paedophilia scandals came to light. My mother, a staunch Roman Catholic won't even converse with me regarding the Tuam scandal. Brainwashed!

I gave up Roman Catholicism years ago, it's just a misery cult, nothing more. Misery loves company.

Taytoland

Wouldn't know thankfully.

EdgeCase

The one thing that I find has changed, and it's more so in the last few years, particularly since the marriage referendum and the abortion referendum, is that I no longer have to keep explaining that I don't live in a religious backwater.

I know Ireland's reality has been pretty different to that for the last couple of decades or more, but a lot of people on the continent and elsewhere were still jumping to the conclusion that it's some kind of 1950s Ireland. I remember someone back in about 2006 being 'worried' about bringing up same-sex-marriage as a topic in front of me in Boston, then being quite surprised that I was 1000% in favour of it.

Also, I am genuinely relieved to not have to explain (and I never defended) the unexplainable position that Ireland had on abortion rights for so many years. It was really at odds with being a modern, Northern European country and was putting us into the same category as the US bible belt, only a bit worse as they don't actually *have* a total ban, they just debate it.

The reputation is (deservedly) changing and it is noticeable when you're abroad.

I'm not saying reputation's everything either or that it necessarily even matters in many respects, but it's just that it always strikes you when you have the perspective of looking at the place from far away - How we see ourselves vs how we are seen are two totally different things.

nthclare

Without bringing religion into this, I think people are gone very soft in the last 30 year's.

Ohhhh don't offend this person that person and the other....

People who're not sensitive and dislike certain people in society are being told that it's wrong to dislike or disagree with what their moral compass can't comprehend.

My answer is if it bothers you go fck yourself, talk to a therapist man up FFS

I don't think my validation depends on what others think of me.

In the past one could slag off the church, sexuality,different race's etc sure the Irish were joked about openly for year's all over the world...

If you are sensitive to people's opinions get an appointment for a shrink, don't be going crying about it to the establishment...

Boards is full of sensitive lefties, the amount of people getting infractions for being bold is quite shocking.....

Now there's my opinion and feck off

Strabanimal

nthclare wrote: »

Without bringing religion into this, I think people are gone very soft in the last 30 year's.

Ohhhh don't offend this person that person and the other....

People who're not sensitive and dislike certain people in society are being told that it's wrong to dislike or disagree with what their moral compass can't comprehend.

My answer is if it bothers you go fck yourself, talk to a therapist man up FFS

I don't think my validation depends on what others think of me.

In the past one could slag off the church, sexuality,different race's etc sure the Irish were joked about openly for year's all over the world...

If you are sensitive to people's opinions get an appointment for a shrink, don't be going crying about it to the establishment...

Boards is full of sensitive lefties, the amount of people getting infractions for being bold is quite shocking.....

Now there's my opinion and feck off

I think you're right in that it's more to do with snowflakes than religion but I definitely think boards has more right wingers than left, as they're all on death's doorstep.

circadian

Asus X540L wrote: »

Hardly any crime(Dublin went from having the lowest murder rate for a capital city in Europe to one of the highest during the Tiger), no African gangs terrorizing North Dublin, women not going around dressed like prossies.

A real sense of community. Ok most people didn't have fancy goods but everyone had a roof over their heads and never went hungry unlike today.

Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum.

circadian

Strabanimal wrote: »

I think you're right in that it's more to do with snowflakes than religion but I definitely think boards has more right wingers than left, as they're all on death's doorstep.

Just seen the username. Doggie man aye?

smokingman

Grab All Association wrote: »

In some parts yes and others absolutely not. We weren’t as rich but were a whole lot happier with what we had. Money corrupts all.

Absolute bollocks. I've far more money than my parents had at my age and I'm far happier.

nthclare

Strabanimal wrote: »

I think you're right in that it's more to do with snowflakes than religion but I definitely think boards has more right wingers than left, as they're all on death's doorstep.

Yes a lot of snowflakes out there, all you have to do is work with a few of today's interns I'm told you can't say anything to them these days.

But I suppose the other side of it is they'll work around 80 hours a week for little or no money, and hang all around them lol

Years ago a tout, peeler, squealer was public enemy and frowned upon.

Now a tout has no conscious about ratting out their fellow work mates.

It's quite easy nowadays to see who'd run to the local constable back before 1916....

Nothing worse than a peeler......

the purple tin

Was Catholic Ireland better than Modern Ireland?
Almost 80% of the population chose RC in 2016 census; modern Ireland is still catholic Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato

EdgeCase wrote: »

there was very limited access to international television

Most people in Dublin who could afford it had 'the pipe' since the 60s*. In the 70s/80s most other cities and big towns got cable too, I think Limerick was one of the last big places due to the difficulty of cable operators getting a signal, being so far away from NI and Wales.

I think a huge part of small town and rural Ireland becoming much more liberal from the second half of the 90s on was satellite TV.

the purple tin wrote: »

Was Catholic Ireland better than Modern Ireland?
Almost 80% of the population chose RC in 2016 census; modern Ireland is still catholic Ireland.

Just box-tickers most of them who don't see the inside of a church from one end of the year to the other.

Some people are actually stupid enough to think that if they were baptised a catholic they HAVE to tick the catholic box.

It signifies nothing apart from we can be pretty sure that >78% of the population were baptised :rolleyes:

* Edited to add: some people including my dad actually put up huge VHF aerials in the 1950s to receive BBC from Divis or Wales and had a TV before Telefis Eireann existed!

feargale

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

Nope, next.

Another attempt to close down debate. When will we see the end of that cliché "next"?

super_furry

feargale wrote: »

Another attempt to close down debate. When will we see the end of that cliché "next"?

Never, fact.

KKkitty

feargale wrote: »

Another attempt to close down debate. When will we see the end of that cliché "next"?

I'd rather live in the Ireland we have now compared to what my parents and grandparents have to live through. Catholic oppression, mothers being separated from their babies because of the Catholic Church saying they committed cardinal sin by having sex outside of marriage. If they were raped you couldn't report it and if you did you were vilified. My partner's grandfather would be in church on a Sunday morning and all households in the parish would have their names called out saying what they contributed weekly. If they missed a week's contribution everyone knew. That's so disgusting to me. Your monetary contribution was worth more than you actually being a good Catholic.

Hotblack Desiato

My wife was born "out of wedlock" in a mother and baby home, was given up for adoption, willingly or otherwise she will never know, but there was a massive societal pressure at the time.

Luckily for her she was adopted into a very loving and supportive family but others were sold abroad or given away to all sorts, or confined to a home and then a laundry as they grew up.

If contemporary values applied then her life would have been very different. She did contact her birth mother but she rejected her, as is her choice I suppose, but her birth mother's life was very much constrained by so-called "catholic morality". Our kids are being raised in a very different climate, thankfully.

whisky_galore

nthclare wrote: »

Yes a lot of snowflakes out there, all you have to do is work with a few of today's interns I'm told you can't say anything to them these days.

But I suppose the other side of it is they'll work around 80 hours a week for little or no money, and hang all around them lol

Years ago a tout, peeler, squealer was public enemy and frowned upon.

Now a tout has no conscious about ratting out their fellow work mates.

It's quite easy nowadays to see who'd run to the local constable back before 1916....

Nothing worse than a peeler......

A 'peeler'? Seriously?
What century are you posting from?

Peatys

Asus X540L wrote: »

Hardly any crime(Dublin went from having the lowest murder rate for a capital city in Europe to one of the highest during the Tiger), no African gangs terrorizing North Dublin, women not going around dressed like prossies.

A real sense of community. Ok most people didn't have fancy goods but everyone had a roof over their heads and never went hungry unlike today.

I'm amazed this account wasn't created a couple of hours ago

nthclare

whisky_galore wrote: »

A 'peeler'? Seriously?
What century are you posting from?

Im posting from a HTC U 12+ in the 21st century.

Peatys

nthclare wrote: »

Im posting from a HTC U 12+ in the 21st century.

What is a peeler

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

nthclare

Peatys wrote: »

What is a peeler

A peeler is someone who runs telling stories, or it's also a terminology for moulting crabs as in when a crabs shell is too small he or she will drink loads of sea water and pop off the outer shell, underneath they're soft until the new shell hardens up.

You can find these soft crabs under rocks in warm weather, fish love them....

nthclare

Patww79 wrote: »

Pre Celtic tiger Ireland was so much better than during or after it. That was the biggest change as it made people horrible in general.

I agree alright, all the new money changed some people.
Some people became very uppity and self entitled with a sprinkle of narcissism,then when it went pinky ponky they got bitter.

nthclare

The one thing I liked about Catholic Ireland and the old day's was....

I got a pleasure out of feeling naughty, going against the grain of the Catholic teachings.

I got the chuckles quite a lot, gaining the feeling of empowering myself by going against the teachings of the church.

I didn't feel any guilt for sex outside marriage, being a dad outside marriage.

In a way the feelings of being a bad lad in the churches eyes gave me a thrill.

Horses for courses, but if I was gay during Catholic Ireland I'd get a thrill out of doing something they didnt approve of.

Nothing more pleasurable than going against the church...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

nthclare wrote: »

The one thing I liked about Catholic Ireland and the old day's was....

I got a pleasure out of feeling naughty, going against the grain of the Catholic teachings.

I got the chuckles quite a lot, gaining the feeling of empowering myself by going against the teachings of the church.

I didn't feel any guilt for sex outside marriage, being a dad outside marriage.

In a way the feelings of being a bad lad in the churches eyes gave me a thrill.

Horses for courses, but if I was gay during Catholic Ireland I'd get a thrill out of doing something they didnt approve of.

Nothing more pleasurable than going against the church...

No reason you can't do any of that now...

Wanderer78

nthclare wrote:

I agree alright, all the new money changed some people. Some people became very uppity and self entitled with a sprinkle of narcissism,then when it went pinky ponky they got bitter.

New 'money', debt more like!

mikemac2

I thought a peeler was a policeman

Prime Minister Robert Peel set up that force so they were known as peelers

When did peeler become tout

Peatys

mikemac2 wrote: »

I thought a peeler was a policeman

Prime Minister Robert Peel set up that force so they were known as peelers

When did peeler become tout

I thought I tout was a ticket scalper, when did a tout become a rat?

murpho999

mikemac2 wrote: »

I thought a peeler was a policeman

Prime Minister Robert Peel set up that force so they were known as peelers

When did peeler become tout

That's definitely what it was, but to be pedantic he was Home Secretary when he set up the Metropolitan Police not prime minister.

I think people are confusing it with squealers.

lawred2

Asus X540L wrote: »

Hardly any crime(Dublin went from having the lowest murder rate for a capital city in Europe to one of the highest during the Tiger), no African gangs terrorizing North Dublin, women not going around dressed like prossies.

A real sense of community. Ok most people didn't have fancy goods but everyone had a roof over their heads and never went hungry unlike today.

pffft

nthclare

Peatys wrote: »

I thought I tout was a ticket scalper, when did a tout become a rat?

It was actually the rat who became a tout, it all depends on where you were brought up.

Chung gum or chewing gum

Giraffe Box

nthclare wrote: »

I agree alright, all the new money changed some people.
Some people became very uppity and self entitled with a sprinkle of narcissism,then when it went pinky ponky they got bitter.

Is the 'pinky ponky' underlined above a reference to 'Inky pinky ponky father had a donkey', if so then then your post might make some sense in a Jabberwocky way, if not then it's pure flapdoodle.

There's always a whiff of snobbery around the term 'new money', the implication being that people who never had much money don't know what to do with it, or how to behave when they get it.......unlike, of course, the people who always had it, the classy people with good taste and refinement.

Ash.J.Williams

Asus X540L wrote: »

Hardly any crime(Dublin went from having the lowest murder rate for a capital city in Europe to one of the highest during the Tiger), no African gangs terrorizing North Dublin, women not going around dressed like prossies.

A real sense of community. Ok most people didn't have fancy goods but everyone had a roof over their heads and never went hungry unlike today.

Dublin was the most violent ****hole in Europe until the late 80s

nthclare

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Is the 'pinky ponky' underlined above a reference to 'Inky pinky ponky father had a donkey', if so then then your post might make some sense in a Jabberwocky way, if not then it's pure flapdoodle.

There's always a whiff of snobbery around the term 'new money', the implication being that people who never had much money don't know what to do with it, or how to behave when they get it.......unlike, of course, the people who always had it, the classy people with good taste and refinement.

Well the people who always had it don't really flaunt it unless they're addicts or insecure.

I know people with old money driving around in vw passat or Toyota estates because it's practical and gets from a to b... For driving to town, then they have something for driving around the estate like a 10 year old range Rover that they'll maintain until it dies.

Then you've the fur coat and no knickers fraternity driving around towns and cities in Range Rover's and not a pot to piss in.
Looking down on people and thinking they're all that.

The working class and upper class have more in common with each other than the fur coat and no knickers brigade....

As being in the middle is trashy and false....

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

I think abandoning or ignoring that we have a spiritual side leads to all sorts of problems, especially among the young.

Giraffe Box

75iyqg1zpa8xfr wrote: »

I think abandoning or ignoring that we have a spiritual side leads to all sorts of problems, especially among the young.

What do mean when you say 'spiritual'?

murpho999

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Dublin was the most violent ****hole in Europe until the late 80s

No it wasn't and its crime levels are still very low despite what people think and say.