Undermined at work

Cheesypuff

Hi all,
Simply looking for an unbiased reasonable opinion. I’ve been working for my employers for over 5 years. I started at entry level on a very low wage and have worked my way up. It’s a small company but growing and after the 2 owners/ directors I’m supposed to be the next senior. However I’ve just learned that another member of staff is earning more than me despite only having joined the company in the last year. In the past when I have asked for payrises, the response I’ve gotten every time is that they pay on “value add” to company and not past experience or other industry standards, when I approached them about this other member of staff higher wage, I was told, that unfortunately that’s the going rate and basically tough! I was reassured that I was the most important person in the company yet unwilling to put me on same wage as other employee. I don’t mean to blow my own trumpet but I am responsible for a team of 6 and do a substantially greater amount of work and unpaid overtime than anyone else in office. We have a huge problem with retention, if you take out my 5 years service, the average time is less than a year. People leave because they perceive that the owners don’t care- they have double standards and are inconsistent with the rules. When I’ve explained this to them they get annoyed with me for not seeing it from a commercial viewpoint, I try to explain that treating employees as equals and subject to same rules is important to retain staff. They are afteral the back bone of the company. They preach fairness, transparency and encourage everyone’s opinions, yet me and my staff are constantly demoralised because of inconsistency in standards. They say one thing and do the other. Their everyday actions are not consistent with the environment they claim they want to foster. I’m tried explaining this a million times but basically get shot down and told that I should be on their side. Should I leave? I can’t see anything changing anytime soon and it’s making it harder and harder to do my job. They claim that I don’t “manage enough” but the truth is because of our ongoing staffing issues, I end up being forced to do the work myself and don’t have time to manage anyone. Thoughts? Thanks

duffman13

Cheesypuff wrote: »

Hi all,
Simply looking for an unbiased reasonable opinion. I’ve been working for my employers for over 5 years. I started at entry level on a very low wage and have worked my way up. It’s a small company but growing and after the 2 owners/ directors I’m supposed to be the next senior. However I’ve just learned that another member of staff is earning more than me despite only having joined the company in the last year. In the past when I have asked for payrises, the response I’ve gotten every time is that they pay on “value add” to company and not past experience or other industry standards, when I approached them about this other member of staff higher wage, I was told, that unfortunately that’s the going rate and basically tough! I was reassured that I was the most important person in the company yet unwilling to put me on same wage as other employee. I don’t mean to blow my own trumpet but I am responsible for a team of 6 and do a substantially greater amount of work and unpaid overtime than anyone else in office. We have a huge problem with retention, if you take out my 5 years service, the average time is less than a year. People leave because they perceive that the owners don’t care- they have double standards and are inconsistent with the rules. When I’ve explained this to them they get annoyed with me for not seeing it from a commercial viewpoint, I try to explain that treating employees as equals and subject to same rules is important to retain staff. They are afteral the back bone of the company. They preach fairness, transparency and encourage everyone’s opinions, yet me and my staff are constantly demoralised because of inconsistency in standards. They say one thing and do the other. Their everyday actions are not consistent with the environment they claim they want to foster. I’m tried explaining this a million times but basically get shot down and told that I should be on their side. Should I leave? I can’t see anything changing anytime soon and it’s making it harder and harder to do my job. They claim that I don’t “manage enough” but the truth is because of our ongoing staffing issues, I end up being forced to do the work myself and don’t have time to manage anyone. Thoughts? Thanks

The person who is paid more, have they got a specialised role? I manage people who earn more than me but thats because they've a particular skill or area of expertise which is hard to come by. If the place is as bad as you make out then you should look elsewhere but the grass isn't always greener. Similar roles with other companies pay more than your earning?

Bunny Colvin

Do you think you could find work elsewhere?

If so, it might be time for a ultimatum. You're given a lot of responsibility looking after a team and putting in overtime you're not being paid for it. They don't sound like a great crowd to work for.

PeterParker957

I feel for you

My place has seemingly a "no blame, collegiality, teamwork" atmosphere. What that actually means is the higher ups get listened to and the low hanging monkey gets kicked off the tree.

amcalester

It's always easier to negotiate when joining a company, internal promotions are rarely paid as much as an external hire but it sounds like this other person is doing a different role to you, so you can't compare the two salaries.

How much could you get in a similar role in a different company and how does that compare to your salary?

If those salaries are more then it's time to move.

drunkmonkey

If your having to do the work of the employee that's bad management, a good manager should be able to walk away and things don't collapse, you haven't made that transaction yet you really need to kick back and manage the staff. That's a mindset change with yourself, you need to say I'm not doing that from now on, I'm going to be busy managing and getting the most out of the staff. Start that tomorrow.

As for should your leave, id have a look maybe get a few interviews under your belt and see what your worth, if you get the management side fixed and you know you can get job after a few interviews then your can accept a better paid job and throw it up to your current employer who will probably make a counter offer but your need to become a manager first, you really sound all over the shop.
If you think you need help get them to help you or do a course for a few days on their time paid for by them.

Cheesypuff

duffman13 wrote: »

The person who is paid more, have they got a specialised role? I manage people who earn more than me but thats because they've a particular skill or area of expertise which is hard to come by. If the place is as bad as you make out then you should look elsewhere but the grass isn't always greener. Similar roles with other companies pay more than your earning?

Not specialised at all, he’s only a sales guy who hasn’t produced the goods to date. I prob could earn more at another company but with mortgage and the usual changing jobs is the last stress I need. Thanks for your reply

amcalester

And stop doing unpaid overtime, that's just papering over the cracks.

Tenigate

Management seem to be able to keep you in line (they praise you, and listen to your complaints). You're willing to work for the salary they pay you. And all's well in the world.

Is it about the money? if you can find a better deal elsewhere I'd urge you to take it.

Is it about how you're treated? True enough, companies tend to treat new employees better, at least in the short term. Maybe you just need a new challenge or a change of scenery.

One thing that won't happen is that you'll change the culture in the organisation. You're probably irritating management as much as they're irritating you at this stage. So either accept it, or leave it.

Cheesypuff

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If your having to do the work of the employee that's bad management, a good manager should be able to walk away and things don't collapse, you haven't made that transaction yet you really need to kick back and manage the staff. That's a mindset change with yourself, you need to say I'm not doing that from now on, I'm going to be busy managing and getting the most out of the staff. Start that tomorrow.

As for should your leave, id have a look maybe get a few interviews under your belt and see what your worth, if you get the management side fixed and you know you can get job after a few interviews then your can accept a better paid job and throw it up to your current employer who will probably make a counter offer but your need to become a manager first, you really sound all over the shop.
If you think you need help get them to help you or do a course for a few days on their time paid for by them.

Yes, it’s very chaotic workplace. I am all over the place. I’ve asked them for help and it hasn’t happened. So I just do it myself. I see your point. Time to put my foot down and stop doing the work. Thanks for honest opinion.

Cheesypuff

Tenigate wrote: »

Management seem to be able to keep you in line (they praise you, and listen to your complaints). You're willing to work for the salary they pay you. And all's well in the world.

Is it about the money? if you can find a better deal elsewhere I'd urge you to take it.

Is it about how you're treated? True enough, companies tend to treat new employees better, at least in the short term. Maybe you just need a new challenge or a change of scenery.

One thing that won't happen is that you'll change the culture in the organisation. You're probably irritating management as much as they're irritating you at this stage. So either accept it, or leave it.

They don’t praise anyone that’s the problem. My staff are doing all the work and unpaid overtime but the sales people on super salaries are idle and leaving at 5pm on a Friday unchecked by the owners, if I or my staff decided to leave early without permission all he’ll would break loose. I have to try and keep my staff going and when I explain it to the owners they say “that’s life” while at the same time preaching about equality. It’s not even about money anymore, it’s the inconsistency and lack of staff morale.

drunkmonkey

Cheesypuff wrote: »

Yes, it’s very chaotic workplace. I am all over the place. I’ve asked them for help and it hasn’t happened. So I just do it myself. I see your point. Time to put my foot down and stop doing the work. Thanks for honest opinion.

Have a look here at the short courses, it'll add value to your CV but it'll also help you at work, maybe give them a call and see which best suits your needs, say it to the owners that you want to do it and ask them pay for it, it's a tax write off for them so won't cost a whole lot in the general scheme of things http://www.imi.ie/short-programmes/focused-skills/managing-people/

You need to cut out the unpaid work, your either doing it without them asking or there demanding it and not paying you which is leaving them wide open to a day in the labour court.

limnam

Leave.

But prepared to be in a job where people around you are on sometimes lower and sometimes higher wages

There's very few jobs these days where everyone is on the same wages.

Figure out your worth. Ask your boss for it or find another company who will pay you what you think you're worth.

for what it's worth, you're not been undermined at all.

Wanderer2010

You are part of the problem. You keep doing unpaid overtime despite all your complaints so management essentially have called your bluff. They will listen to your complaints with a pretend caring ear and fob you off with the "work smarter, not harder" and other such crap buzzwords. Essentially OP you are working for people who don't see or care for your worth, why would you do that to yourself?

You already know the place is managed badly, the turnover says a lot. Unless you want to change more than you want to stay in this rut, your situation will continue. Stay and be taken advantage of or look for a company who know how to compensate and treat its workers.

Beasty

There are usually a couple of ways to look at something like this. If you feel undervalued and you think there are roles out there that will suit your skills, there's absolutely no reason not to test the water. Equally if you feel you have a skill that your current employer values, you can either challenge them, or simply sit it out. One thing I think many (but not all) employers value is loyalty

I'm guessing my role is very different to what we are talking about here. I started with my current employer 30 years ago. 18 months later my boss left. They decided not to replace him as the amount they had paid my former boss was not enough to attract an outsider. Hence I effectively grew into the role. However I was being paid a third of what my former boss got, so I went to see the Finance Director to ask for a rise. He said wait six months and we'll see. 2 months later he died and was not fully replaced. His "assurance" of at least offering a review never materialised.

I stayed as I knew I was getting better experience there than pretty much anywhere else in the UK. My pay gradually increased but I was still on a lot less than my former boss had been on a few years later. I therefore applied for a job at our main competitor. On reflection I decided I was much better off where I was

A couple of years later I really came into my own. I became the goto person in the organisation, both in my area of specialism, but also on pretty much the full history of the organisation. In those early years I had really just sat back and taken everything in, like a sponge. All the "old guard" were retiring and my knowledge and skills came to the fore

It was always a pretty big company, and remains so to this day. I'm one of the top paid executives. It took me 9 years to even get a bonus (in a year I had steered the organisation through a number of very significant deals - got 5 grand for that). Now my bonus can be over 50% of my salary in a good year. My pay is over 15 times what it was when I started 30 years ago. I get other benefits.

Yes I'm very much the exception in terms of career path, and in many ways I've made my own luck. However my career would probably not have turned out anywhere near what has happened if I had not decided to get my head down and stick with it in those early days.

dubrov

Doesn't sound like a great place to work. What is holding you back from moving on?

Ohmeha

GTFOutta there mate

5 years service there you know nothing will ever change.

Even if you hand in your notice and the magic salary increase is whipped out towards pay parity would you still want to continue there in that environment knowing you're still going to be the mudguard piled with that responsibility under that unfair thankless culture?

Obviously thoroughly research your industry role and skillset for your salary expectations to job the hunt but if you can earn more coupled with a change of scene it will do you more than good financially and for your head.

Diceicle

They say a Fish rots from the head - so if management aren't on-board, or are only paying lip-service to pro-active and positive change - get out of there. It will be an uphill battle all the way.

Test the market (as others have said) and find out what your worth - check salary levels online (salary.com?) and Glassdoor - see what is out there.

Another suggestion might be getting some professional help - by that I mean, CV writing, Interview preparation but also (and possibly most critically) salary negotiation.

Start tracking your own metrics (or get together some stats that you can use on your CV, in interviews and in negotiation) - 'My team management enabled an increase in productivity of 33% YTD', 'Under my supervision sick leave reduced by 40%' etc.

Good luck.

Avatar MIA

Beasty wrote: »

There are usually a couple of ways to look at something like this. If you feel undervalued and you think there are roles out there that will suit your skills, there's absolutely no reason not to test the water. Equally if you feel you have a skill that your current employer values, you can either challenge them, or simply sit it out. One thing I think many (but not all) employers value is loyalty

I'm guessing my role is very different to what we are talking about here. I started with my current employer 30 years ago. 18 months later my boss left. They decided not to replace him as the amount they had paid my former boss was not enough to attract an outsider. Hence I effectively grew into the role. However I was being paid a third of what my former boss got, so I went to see the Finance Director to ask for a rise. He said wait six months and we'll see. 2 months later he died and was not fully replaced. His "assurance" of at least offering a review never materialised.

I stayed as I knew I was getting better experience there than pretty much anywhere else in the UK. My pay gradually increased but I was still on a lot less than my former boss had been on a few years later. I therefore applied for a job at our main competitor. On reflection I decided I was much better off where I was

A couple of years later I really came into my own. I became the goto person in the organisation, both in my area of specialism, but also on pretty much the full history of the organisation. In those early years I had really just sat back and taken everything in, like a sponge. All the "old guard" were retiring and my knowledge and skills came to the fore

It was always a pretty big company, and remains so to this day. I'm one of the top paid executives. It took me 9 years to even get a bonus (in a year I had steered the organisation through a number of very significant deals - got 5 grand for that). Now my bonus can be over 50% of my salary in a good year. My pay is over 15 times what it was when I started 30 years ago. I get other benefits.

Yes I'm very much the exception in terms of career path, and in many ways I've made my own luck. However my career would probably not have turned out anywhere near what has happened if I had not decided to get my head down and stick with it in those early days.

Great story. Being able to see the bigger picture is key. The amount of CVs I get in where the applicant is looking to move after less than a year in their current role is staggering.

Sometimes moving (god knows I've done it enough times myself) is a good thing, but sometimes sticking it out and making the most of your current opportunity can be a game changer.

OP

You are in a situation where you have to be considered an important part of the company. You'll not usually get that by moving until a few more years have passed.

You consider yourself an asset to the company (and I'm sure you are). However, ask yourself this - as someone that's there so long in comparison to other staff members WHY can you not negotiate a better salary? Is it all the owners fault or do you need to improve your people management/negotiation skills - are you not so well developed as you think?

As for overtime, there's a time and a place. If it's a regular thing, then it's not overtime - it's regular time and needs to be sorted. Again, negotiation is key.

As for high employee turnover, that's almost a modern norm. Not sure if it's down to modern attention span or what, but staff turnover ratios cannot be used the same way as before. The actual staff have changed also.

tomwaits48

they are taking you for a ride. Don't sell yourself short. Know you own value. if they dont meet it, get going.

allybhoy

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Great story. Being able to see the bigger picture is key. The amount of CVs I get in where the applicant is looking to move after less than a year in their current role is staggering.

Sometimes moving (god knows I've done it enough times myself) is a good thing, but sometimes sticking it out and making the most of your current opportunity can be a game changer.

OP

You are in a situation where you have to be considered an important part of the company. You'll not usually get that by moving until a few more years have passed.

You consider yourself an asset to the company (and I'm sure you are). However, ask yourself this - as someone that's there so long in comparison to other staff members WHY can you not negotiate a better salary? Is it all the owners fault or do you need to improve your people management/negotiation skills - are you not so well developed as you think?

As for overtime, there's a time and a place. If it's a regular thing, then it's not overtime - it's regular time and needs to be sorted. Again, negotiation is key.

As for high employee turnover, that's almost a modern norm. Not sure if it's down to modern attention span or what, but staff turnover ratios cannot be used the same way as before. The actual staff have changed also.

This is important, negotiation....
You have to construct a better argument for a payrise other than, "well he's just joined and is earning X so i should be too"

You need to be able to show your worth independent of your fellow employees, demonstrate your values and be willing to compromise. If an increase isnt on the cards see if there is anything else that your employer can help with such as training fees or performance bonuses. See if together you can implement attainable quarterly targets and if you reach these targets get rewarded accordingly. Id also cut back on the unpaid overtime, thats achieving nothing for you. You probably feel like you have to as your swamped but honestly, your just making more problems for yourself.


Ultimately, if your not happy though and your there 5 years, then why not test the waters, or at least take some annual leave to consider your options, turn off your phone, dont answer emails and try not to think about work for a few days. It's easier to decide how you want your career to progress when you are in a clear and relaxed state .

If you still feel undervalued, then maybe request one final review with your employer, put forward your case with a calm disposition leaving emotion aside and try to give examples of your worth and value to the organisation without comparing yourself to other employees. If you still get no joy after this then the reality is you will still be in the same position in another 5 years so you should focus on compiling the best possible CV you can and engage in looking for alternative employment.