Homophobic remarks at work today

Peregrinus

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure if you meant to quote my post or not. Nor am I sure how that applies to what I said.

I did mean to quote you. Tell me how said he didn't think the questions put were bullying, and you quoted him and said "that's it in a nutshell". I think you were both wrong (perhaps partly because tell me how misstated the question); I think it was bullying.

Mellor wrote: »

Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

If they are known to be straight, no, that's not bullying.

The difference here is that bicloset is (a) male, and (b) not out. So to ask him "do you have a boyfriend?" is to attempt to out him, or to force him to dissimulate in order to avoid being outed. "Do you have a partner?" or "Are you in a relationship?" would be OK, if a bit forward, but "do you have a boyfriend?" is tantamount to "you're gay, aren't you?". Not cool.

Mellor

Peregrinus wrote: »

I did mean to quote you. Tell me how said he didn't think the questions put were bullying, and you quoted him and said "that's it in a nutshell". I think you were both wrong (perhaps partly because tell me how misstated the question); I think it was bullying.

You ignoring/forgetting the second half.
I followed up that part saying tone of a question changes everything. A perfectly reasonable statement or question can be changed entirely. I also said the person in the OP probably was being snide. The last comment in particular made it sound like a rehearsed schtick to be.

The difference here is that bicloset is (a) male, and (b) not out. So to ask him "do you have a boyfriend?" is to attempt to out him, or to force him to dissimulate in order to avoid being outed. "Do you have a partner?" or "Are you in a relationship?" would be OK, if a bit forward, but "do you have a boyfriend?" is tantamount to "you're gay, aren't you?". Not cool.

You are reconstructing my question though. You're changing the situation into outing someone. I made it clear I wasn't talking about the OP specifically. Vindictively outing somebody is obviously not cool.


Your previous sentence was;

If they are known to be straight, no, that's not bullying.

I'm asking if we change the sexual orientation in the above. Is it still bullying?
I don't believe it is.

We can change any number of other details to make it more or less bullying or not bullying tbh.

Peregrinus

Mellor wrote: »

You ignoring/forgetting the second half.
I followed up that part saying tone of a question changes everything. A perfectly reasonable statement or question can be changed entirely. I also said the person in the OP probably was being snide. The last comment in particular made it sound like a rehearsed schtick to be.

I may be misunderstanding you, but if you ask a man, who's not out, "Do you have a boyfriend?", I find it hard to imagine that tone would enter into it very much.

Mellor wrote: »

I'm asking if we change the sexual orientation in the above. Is it still bullying?
I don't believe it is.

Sexual orientation isn't really relevant. What matters is that the person is not an out gay man. There are a couple of permutations on this:

He's gay, but not out. You know or believe that he's gay, and you're attempting to out him, or at least to embarrass him into lying. This is bullying; I think we both agree this.

You do not know whether he is gay or not, or you simply assume that he's straight, but in either case you are seeking to embarrass him by insinuating that you know him to be gay. This is homophobic bullying, not because he's gay - he isn't - but because it treats gayness as a cause for shame.

He's straight, and you know he's straight. Either you're seeking to embarrass him by insinuating that you know him to be gay, which is homophobic bullying as above, or you ask it in such a jocular tone (and this is really the only case in which tone is relevant) as to make it clear that you know him to be straight, but you consider it amusing to affect to think that he's gay. In that case you're not bullying him, but you probably are contributing to an environment in which homosexuality is assumed to be embarrassing or shameful, and is used as a slur.

The only circumstance in which you can properly ask a man if he has a boyfriend is in an environment in which he is an out gay man.

Mellor

Peregrinus wrote: »

I may be misunderstanding you, but if you ask a man, who's not out,

There's that "who's not out" bit again.

He's gay, but not out. You know or believe that he's gay, and you're attempting to out him, or at least to embarrass him into lying. This is bullying; I think we both agree this.

I agree that's bullying.
But that's not applicable to my question.

You do not know whether he is gay or not, or you simply assume that he's straight, but in either case you are seeking to embarrass him by insinuating that you know him to be gay. This is homophobic bullying, not because he's gay - he isn't - but because it treats gayness as a cause for shame.

That would be homophobic, and also bullying, but not homophobic bullying imo. Mostly semantics.

If they are known to be straight, no, that's not bullying.

In the above scenario, you prefaced the comment by they are known to be straight. Yet, you removed that part from the homosexual scenario. That completely changes the scenario, and was not the question I asked.

The only circumstance in which you can properly ask a man if he has a boyfriend is in an environment in which he is an out gay man.

Agree. That's exactly what I asked btw.

The reason I asked that question was because the poster I was talking to claimed asking a homosexual that question was homophobic simply because they are homosexual.
I find that eggshell approach to be a bit ridiculous tbh.

Annasopra

To be honest I think "what about asking a straight person" is just whaboutery

Mellor

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

To be honest I think "what about asking a straight person" is just whaboutery

No really. It was just an example to highlight the nonsense. But it's by no means necessary. It's pretty easy to demonstrate that the sentiment was nonsense without that example.

Peregrinus' post above sums it up well. It's wrong if asking that question furthers some vindictive agenda (such as outing the person). It's not a homophobic question simply because the person is homosexual. In the case of an out gay man, it's not an issue.

Tell me how

Joeytheparrot wrote:

To be honest I think "what about asking a straight person" is just whaboutery

If you think that, you must think asking any person about their relationship status and desire for one is bullying. I don't.

If it persists after it being obvious it made the person being asked uncomfortable, and they said so, then it is.

I'm glad to see that the OP didn't post again that this person since said anything else negative to them so I hope it was just them being clumsy and a bit forward but not intentionally bullying.

Peregrinus

Mellor wrote: »

. . . . The reason I asked that question was because the poster I was talking to claimed asking a homosexual that question was homophobic simply because they are homosexual.

Right. I had picked you up wrongly. My apologies.

Asking a work colleague if he's in a relationship may be rude and I'd hesitate to do it myself, but it's not rendered homophobic purely by the fact that the colleague is gay. Something more is required.

If the question is framed in a way that implies or discloses that the colleague is gay and this isn't something already openly acknowledged in the work environment then, yeah, it starts to look homophobic.

Mellor

Peregrinus wrote: »

Right. I had picked you up wrongly. My apologies.

No worries. Posts were crossing over and it's easily done.

Asking a work colleague if he's in a relationship may be rude and I'd hesitate to do it myself, but it's not rendered homophobic purely by the fact that the colleague is gay. Something more is required.

If the question is framed in a way that implies or discloses that the colleague is gay and this isn't something already openly acknowledged in the work environment then, yeah, it starts to look homophobic.

Agree on both counts

Annasopra

Tell me how wrote: »

If you think that, you must think asking any person about their relationship status and desire for one is bullying. I don't.

If it persists after it being obvious it made the person being asked uncomfortable, and they said so, then it is.

I'm glad to see that the OP didn't post again that this person since said anything else negative to them so I hope it was just them being clumsy and a bit forward but not intentionally bullying.

Dont patronise me to tell me what I think.

Tell me how

Joeytheparrot wrote:

Dont patronise me to tell me what I think.

Sorry for inferring something. From what you posted.

That's how discussions work. Take care.

Annasopra

Tell me how wrote: »

Sorry for inferring something. From what you posted.

That's how discussions work. Take care.

Not really. Telling other people what they think isnt how discussions work - saying I might or probably think x is much more correct.

Tell me how

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Not really. Telling other people what they think isnt how discussions work - saying I might or probably think x is much more correct.

Well then you must have (probably) missed the part where I said must in my original post.

Tell me how wrote: »

If you think that, you must think asking any person about their relationship status and desire for one is bullying. I don't.

The use of use of must in this way is comparable to the use of probably. But you must not think so.

Dublinstiofán

randomly turns around to me and asks if I have a boyfriend. When I said no I didn't, he then asked do I want one? and I said no to which he replies that he will keep his ear out for me.

Next time, Ye your ma but she’s a bit too manly for me , laugh, walk away! Problem solved

bicloset

Haven't seen the loudmouth since the event as he is thankfully in a different site so we never really cross paths. The other 2 people who were onlookers have spoke and treated me no differently as they are down to earth anyways. It has knocked my confidence a little bit and made me suspicious of all people. I'll update the next time I come in contact with the loudmouth and be interesting to see what he has to say or remark.

JupiterKid

bicloset wrote: »

Haven't seen the loudmouth since the event as he is thankfully in a different site so we never really cross paths. The other 2 people who were onlookers have spoke and treated me no differently as they are down to earth anyways. It has knocked my confidence a little bit and made me suspicious of all people. I'll update the next time I come in contact with the loudmouth and be interesting to see what he has to say or remark.

If he makes any further remarks about your sexuality or relationship status, then I’d consider that clear cut harassment/bullying. If it happens, report him to management.

jobbridge4life

bicloset wrote: »

Haven't seen the loudmouth since the event as he is thankfully in a different site so we never really cross paths. The other 2 people who were onlookers have spoke and treated me no differently as they are down to earth anyways. It has knocked my confidence a little bit and made me suspicious of all people. I'll update the next time I come in contact with the loudmouth and be interesting to see what he has to say or remark.

Glad to hear it. I hope that everything remains positive. I would encourage you to explore the impact being in the closet is having on your mental health.

Ash885

“You wouldn’t worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do" is a quote that I try and remind myself anytime my sexuality is brought up in these kinds of contexts.

OP what I would say is you may be over-thinking the knock on affect of this because ultimately if people wonder who you share a bed with, they are incredibly sad. And trying to put focus on such things speaks volumes about them, not you.

Try and draw strength from how trivial a thing it is - "Why do you even caaaaare?" sort of thing - that's not me belittling your experience, as I've been there tenfold. If it grows into a consistent thing I'd involve higher powers and/or note down and date comments being said.