White Moose Man v "Social Influencer"...

end of the road

Buford T Justice wrote: »

Perhaps not, but he is using his position in this case to do things differently than the traditional method. That doesn't make it wrong.

he is attention seeking. in business terms that doesn't constitute "doing something different" it constitutes a lesson in "how not to run a business"

Heat_Wave

VinLieger wrote: »

Privileged position? Yes how dare he run 2 successful businesses that employ numerous people....

Successful? He is €2m in debt. Phoenix magazine regularly post about his poor financial position, hence his desperate cries for free publicity.

Buford T Justice

Heat_Wave wrote: »

Successful? He is €2m in debt. Phoenix magazine regularly post about his poor financial position, hence his desperate cries for free publicity.

Yet he closed the Cafe for a few days this year and brought all the staff on a trip to disneyland paris.

He also gave all the staff a pay increase last year.

_Dara_

Buford T Justice wrote: »

Perhaps not, but he is using his position in this case to do things differently than the traditional method. That doesn't make it wrong.

Oh will ya shtop. It would be a regressive move if more businesses adopted his approach. You and others have said that he only roasts people who deserve it. Well, he did it to someone who asked him not use one of her photographs. Her email was not rude. It was a legitimate complaint. And he still did it. I doubt you and other would be alright with him turning on you on a whim because he decided he wanted a bit of publicity if you went to him with a valid complaint.

strandroad

Buford T Justice wrote: »

Yet he closed the Cafe for a few days this year and brought all the staff on a trip to disneyland paris.

He also gave all the staff a pay increase last year.

Wasn't it a recovery move after he posted another employee's actual sick certificates as a rant on Facebook? And he mocked the English of a Brazilian job candidate. Sounds like a brilliant boss doesn't he.

He's already ranted his way through bloggers, vegans, breastfeeding mothers, foreigners, coeliacs and probably a bunch of others that escaped me. It's likely cyclists, gingers and overweight folks next. He has a clear pattern...

Fr_Dougal

Buford T Justice wrote: »

Yet he closed the Cafe for a few days this year and brought all the staff on a trip to disneyland paris.

He also gave all the staff a pay increase last year.

I’ve checked the annual accounts for the company that owns the hotel(owned by his parents), the bank would have paid for that holiday. The hotel is in massive debt, can’t see them trading out of it.

Pay increases, holiday, all PR stunts paid for by the bank through credit.

Mr E

He's definitely milking this for all it's worth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ArrHIVvxEE

The J Stands for Jay

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

I’ve checked the annual accounts for the company that owns the hotel(owned by his parents), the bank would have paid for that holiday. The hotel is in massive debt, can’t see them trading out of it.

Pay increases, holiday, all PR stunts paid for by the bank through credit.

The bulk of the loans being due in 2 to 5 years. There'll be some interesting times ahead.

Heat_Wave

Buford T Justice wrote: »

Yet he closed the Cafe for a few days this year and brought all the staff on a trip to disneyland paris.

He also gave all the staff a pay increase last year.

You know why he brought them to Disneyland?

He posted a video advocating for mental health the week prior to announcing the Disneyland trip. He received a torrent of abuse from people telling him that he went too far naming and shaming the Dublin girl who posted the TripAdvisor review. All comments basically said he had some cheek acting as an advocate for mental health. He posted on snapchat saying that the girls brother phoned his cafe to say she was close to hospitalisation due to the abuse she was receiving online, and then he said "does she realise how bad hospital food is? Next she'll be reviewing hospitals". He deleted the entire post due to the negative backlash he received.

The following week he announced that he was bringing all his staff to Disneyland - an attempt to deflect from the negative backlash the previous week, and lo and behold this heroic act got enormous attention and he was then labelled a legend etc.

He plays the game incredibly well, but he seriously cannot handle an ounce of criticism. He seems incredibly paranoid and on edge.

VinLieger

Lovely to see irish begrudgery hasnt died, so now instead of being annoyed at him being successful your happy hes not doing well and celebrating all his employees may be let go sooner rather than later.....

This man is trying to keep his business afloat and employees paid by any means neccessary and look at all the people lining up to call him everything under the sun for doing so what is a pretty damn commendable thing. Hes done nothing illegal its just people dont like the way he does business and i think that attitude is quite pathetic and once again typical irish begrudgery.

end of the road

VinLieger wrote: »

Lovely to see irish begrudgery hasnt died, so now instead of being annoyed at him being successful your happy hes not doing well and celebrating all his employees may be let go sooner rather than later.....

This man is trying to keep his business afloat and employees paid by any means neccessary and look at all the people lining up to call him everything under the sun for doing so what is a pretty damn commendable thing. Hes done nothing illegal its just people dont like the way he does business and i think that attitude is quite pathetic and once again typical irish begrudgery.

nope wrong, he's trying to be some sort of comedy act by being an attention hore and he is failing hugely. if he wants to keep his parent's business afloat then he needs to stop being an attention seeker and focus on actually running the business.

fritzelly

This still going on
One trick she missed - shoulda monetised her latest vid - 1.7 million views lol

Stuckforcash

Heat_Wave wrote: »

You know why he brought them to Disneyland?

He posted a video advocating for mental health the week prior to announcing the Disneyland trip. He received a torrent of abuse from people telling him that he went too far naming and shaming the Dublin girl who posted the TripAdvisor review. All comments basically said he had some cheek acting as an advocate for mental health. He posted on snapchat saying that the girls brother phoned his cafe to say she was close to hospitalisation due to the abuse she was receiving online, and then he said "does she realise how bad hospital food is? Next she'll be reviewing hospitals". He deleted the entire post due to the negative backlash he received.

The following week he announced that he was bringing all his staff to Disneyland - an attempt to deflect from the negative backlash the previous week, and lo and behold this heroic act got enormous attention and he was then labelled a legend etc.

He plays the game incredibly well, but he seriously cannot handle an ounce of criticism. He seems incredibly paranoid and on edge.

I commented on the post regarding the TripAdvisor review.

I said "Hey Paul this seems a bit harsh?"

He blocked me (and hundreds of others) from the page and deleted my comment. Really bizarre guy.

splinter65

If she’d have checked out the cafe Facebook page before she’d emailed him she’d have realized that he wasn’t desperate for “likes” and “followers” himself, and he didn’t need her patronizing offer of a video review in return for 4 nights free B&B.

Gatling

Mr E wrote: »

He's definitely milking this for all it's worth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ArrHIVvxEE

Got to love it ,

CosmicJay

I have to love all of the people in here going here's how not to run a business, rabble rabble.

Yet 99% of them definitely don't run a business.

Love him or hate him, its entertainment.

I brought the missus to the Cafe after she had seen it on snapchat.

Food was lovely, had a chat to Jason and he was lovely.

Didnt see Paul however.

All really nice folk, business seems to be doing very well.

meeeeh

CosmicJay wrote: »

I have to love all of the people in here going here's how not to run a business, rabble rabble.

Yet 99% of them definitely don't run a business.

Love him or hate him, its entertainment.

I brought the missus to the Cafe after she had seen it on snapchat.

Food was lovely, had a chat to Jason and he was lovely.

Didnt see Paul however.

All really nice folk, business seems to be doing very well.

Well I am one of those 1% here. I'm not claiming I am any good at it and I find no pleasure in finding other people's business could be in trouble. But at the same time there is a bit more to running a business than being obnoxious on social media. I have no idea how good he is at what to does but neither do those who think he is business genious just because he is rude to vegans and bloggers.

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

I have to love all of the people in here going here's how not to run a business, rabble rabble.

Yet 99% of them definitely don't run a business.

really? 99%? and you would know this on the basis of?
i'd suggest that 99% of businesses not engaging in the nonsense mr stenson does is for good reason, perhapse it's actually not good business sense?

CosmicJay wrote: »

Love him or hate him, its entertainment.

each to their own, but entertainment is supposed to be, well, entertaining.
but then again with the bar set low on a lot of things these days it's no surprise that this is what is considered "entertainment"

Brendan Bendar

Anyone who gives a freeloader a boot up the hole is ok with me.

Venom

end of the road wrote: »

really? 99%? and you would know this on the basis of?
i'd suggest that 99% of businesses not engaging in the nonsense mr stenson does is for good reason, perhapse it's actually not good business sense?



each to their own, but entertainment is supposed to be, well, entertaining.
but then again with the bar set low on a lot of things these days it's no surprise that this is what is considered "entertainment"

Are you high!

You seriouly don't think a business spending a just a few hours posting on the internet plus the cost of a few sheets of paper to get this insane level of worldwide coverage from newpapers, bloggers and Youtubers with a pretty positive response from their target market is good business! If you honestly believe the tripe your posting then you most deffentily fall into that 99% Comicjay mentioned.

Entertainment is subjective. Some won't find his antics funny but some will and seeing as the ones who don't are unlikely to ever darken his doorstep, it's no loss to him.

end of the road

Venom wrote: »

Are you high!

not one bit, no

Venom wrote: »

You seriouly don't think a business spending a just a few hours posting on the internet plus the cost of a few sheets of paper to get this insane level of worldwide coverage from newpapers, bloggers and Youtubers with a pretty positive response from their target market is good business!

it doesn't seem to be if post 560 in this thread is to be believed, no . doesn't seem to be working well. seems the established ways are the ones which actually make the business sense after all.

Venom wrote: »

If you honestly believe the tripe your posting then you most deffentily fall into that 99% Comicjay mentioned.

the 99% that cosmicjay made up and wouldn't be able to prove? i say made up because the claim doesn't stand up to scruteny on the basis of.
1. there are businesses doing way better then this one by miles, who don't use attention seeking tactics. if attention seeking made business sense, all businesses would be at it.
2. there seems to be little evidence that attention seeking tactics are attracting huge custom, and if it is attracting custom, that it is more then is being turned off and would be attracted by other established means which actually do work.

Venom wrote: »

Entertainment is subjective. Some won't find his antics funny but some will and seeing as the ones who don't are unlikely to ever darken his doorstep, it's no loss to him.

entertainment is subjective, there is good, and then there is absolute junk. attention seeking on facebook fits into the junk i'm afraid.
by the way those businesses are his parents businesses are they not? so, people not going near them because of his antics may not be a loss to him but it is for his parents businesses.

pemay

Just shaking my head at the whole self-entitlement/boom of "mini-cults", aka how many "followers" a young person has being used to validate their own existence and usefulness to society.

Theres the old horsenut of every generation being looked down upon by the older generation yadda yadda yadda.

But in all seriousness, being as objective as possible, I believe that the generation/s of 14 to 26 year olds are plagued with significant psychological and social issues (or will eventually manifest as same). When these people take over the running of the world there is going to be severe repercussions for all concerned.

The generation in charge for the last 20/30 odd years have instilled the worst virtues possible in their children (generally speaking of course), both through education and demonstration. The fruits are just starting to bear their ugly heads now. Just wait until they ripen

Buford T Justice

end of the road wrote: »

i'd suggest that 99% of businesses not engaging in the nonsense mr stenson does is for good reason, perhapse it's actually not good business sense?

really? 99%? and you would know this on the basis of?

_Dara_

CosmicJay wrote: »

Yet 99% of them definitely don't run a business.

That's a very definitive statement for something you pulled out of your arse.

Brendan Bendar

pemay wrote: »

Just shaking my head at the whole self-entitlement/boom of "mini-cults", aka how many "followers" a young person has being used to validate their own existence and usefulness to society.

Theres the old horsenut of every generation being looked down upon by the older generation yadda yadda yadda.

But in all seriousness, being as objective as possible, I believe that the generation/s of 14 to 26 year olds are plagued with significant psychological and social issues (or will eventually manifest as same). When these people take over the running of the world there is going to be severe repercussions for all concerned.

The generation in charge for the last 20/30 odd years have instilled the worst virtues possible in their children (generally speaking of course), both through education and demonstration. The fruits are just starting to bear their ugly heads now. Just wait until they ripen

Good call pee, these leathernecks who equate 'importance and influence' with 'followers numbers' deserve nothing but a good shoeing.

Complete liggers with hard necks who deserve to be stamped on- hard, at every possible opportunity.

_Dara_

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Good call pee, these leathernecks who equate 'importance and influence' with 'followers numbers' deserve nothing but a good shoeing.

Complete liggers with hard necks who deserve to be stamped on- hard, at every possible opportunity.

As has been pointed out, Stenson relies heavily on social media himself for validation and freebies.

CosmicJay

_Dara_ wrote: »

That's a very definitive statement for something you pulled out of your arse.

I’d say it’s pretty accurate. Most people who run a business would realise that when you start generating massive awareness bad and good it’ll ultimately help.

Also, they would probably have more important things to do than be salty about a person who doesn’t even realise they exist over the internet.

Regardless of how much of an ass he is, he’s doing better than most people here.

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

I’d say it’s pretty accurate.

i'd say it's not.

CosmicJay wrote: »

Most people who run a business would realise that when you start generating massive awareness bad and good it’ll ultimately help.

they would also recognise that constant attention seeking is not quite as likely to bring in good custom as conventional business strategies.

CosmicJay wrote: »

Also, they would probably have more important things to do than be salty about a person who doesn’t even realise they exist over the internet.

indeed they would.

CosmicJay wrote: »

Regardless of how much of an ass he is, he’s doing better than most people here.

is he? that's a very definitive statement for another thing you pulled out of your arse.

strandroad

CosmicJay wrote: »

Regardless of how much of an ass he is, he’s doing better than most people here.

I bet most people here are not in multimillion debt...

_Dara_

CosmicJay wrote: »

I’d say it’s pretty accurate. Most people who run a business would realise that when you start generating massive awareness bad and good it’ll ultimately help.

Actually, I think that people who think there is no such thing as bad publicity sound much more wet-behind-the-ears. Bad publicity can bury a business. Not always but sometimes.

And Stenson seems to have plenty of time for internet saltiness. By your barometer, I guess that means he’s not a good businessman?

Brendan Bendar

_Dara_ wrote: »

As has been pointed out, Stenson relies heavily on social media himself for validation and freebies.

I stand corrected Dara.

However any so called influencer who contacted me looking for free accom in return for a good review wold leave with a two tone deck shoe hanging from his hoop.

Jerichoholic

He's an attention seeking reptile.

Bambi985

pemay wrote: »

Just shaking my head at the whole self-entitlement/boom of "mini-cults", aka how many "followers" a young person has being used to validate their own existence and usefulness to society.

Haha too right. Sometimes I find myself removed from the world of social media and thinking about it objectively and it just dawns on me how utterly mental and ludicrous and outrageous the entire medium is as a whole.

The idea of taking a photo of yourself with your trout pout and facetuning the shizzle out of it and applying half a dozen filters and posting it on the internet for the world to see and tell you what a great girl you are altogether would've been considered a clear sign of mental illness twenty years ago. Someone then accruing "followers", half of whom would actually be fake bots they purchased to make them seem like they are...important...and this person isn't a celebrity, they're Sheila Murphy from down the road who did a FAS course in "makeup artistry" and hasn't two brain cells to rub together but suddenly companies are sponsoring her and every 10-year old wants to be a "youtube vlogger" just like her. Mad ted.

_Dara_

Bambi985 wrote: »

Haha too right. Sometimes I find myself removed from the world of social media and thinking about it objectively and it just dawns on me how utterly mental and ludicrous and outrageous the entire medium is as a whole.

The idea of taking a photo of yourself with your trout pout and facetuning the shizzle out of it and applying half a dozen filters and posting it on the internet for the world to see and tell you what a great girl you are altogether would've been considered a clear sign of mental illness twenty years ago. Someone then accruing "followers", half of whom would actually be fake bots they purchased to make them seem like they are...important...and this person isn't a celebrity, they're Sheila Murphy from down the road who did a FAS course in "makeup artistry" and hasn't two brain cells to rub together but suddenly companies are sponsoring her and every 10-year old wants to be a "youtube vlogger" just like her. Mad ted.

Yeah, I mentioned my hubs working with a guy who is trying to become an influencer earlier in the thread. Hubs and I reflected a while back how people ten years younger just have no shame about this stuff at all where as we’d be roundly slagged off by our peers for similar. Rightfully. Maybe us 30 somethings really don’t get it, like she said. I’ve never been so happy to be ignorant of something.

CosmicJay

_Dara_ wrote: »

Actually, I think that people who think there is no such thing as bad publicity sound much more wet-behind-the-ears. Bad publicity can bury a business. Not always but sometimes.

And Stenson seems to have plenty of time for internet saltiness. By your barometer, I guess that means he’s not a good businessman?

The main difference is that stenson getting salty reaches an audience much larger than a thread on boards.ie.

Bad publicity can be a death knell for most businesses, but it hasn’t for his business now has it?

I’m not gonna stay here and say he’s amazing, but he’s doing something right.

Heat_Wave

https://youtu.be/RaL1wi7RqGk

_Dara_

CosmicJay wrote: »

The main difference is that stenson getting salty reaches an audience much larger than a thread on boards.ie.

Bad publicity can be a death knell for most businesses, but it hasn’t for his business now has it?

I’m not gonna stay here and say he’s amazing, but he’s doing something right.

His (or his parents’) businesses are deeply in debt and the fact the he has to cultivate controversy somewhat frequently tells that it’s not working all that well. A solid reputation based on quality and buzz has clearly not been built. The publicity probably has a short-lasting effect each time. Hardly ideal.

fritzelly

Many businesses are deeply in debt, not sure why that is part of the discussion.

CosmicJay

_Dara_ wrote: »

His (or his parents’) businesses are deeply in debt and the fact the he has to cultivate controversy somewhat frequently tells that it’s not working all that well. A solid reputation based on quality and buzz has clearly not been built. The publicity probably has a short-lasting effect each time. Hardly ideal.

It’s doing it’s job though, isn’t it?

The chances are the massive debt run up by the business was most likely by his parents.

If it wasn’t a going concern the bank would foreclose.

I’ve seen a hotels with solid reputation, good quality and a decent buzz go for liquidation just as much as the bad ones.

If I could talk **** online constantly and it noticeably increase my turnover Id well do it.

sdanseo

My response here will be the same as on a FB post by a lad I know. And adding in summary, if the price we have to pay for the occasional all-out assault on the PC brigade is a little smuggery, then well worth it and may it long continue. -

The tone in which her email written is essentially a begging letter. If you're going to propose a business partnership your initial contact should never include asking for free anything. I wouldn't disassemble the poor girl's character over that though.

What she wasn't to know (and would have discovered, if she'd so much as googled the name of the hotel) was that the owner has a reputation in Ireland for his no **** attitude. It's a bit of comedy for us as much as it is a shot across the bows of bull**** political correctness but the point to be made iis if she'd done her research she'd have known what the outcome would be.

_Dara_

CosmicJay wrote: »

It’s doing it’s job though, isn’t it?

The chances are the massive debt run up by the business was most likely by his parents.

If it wasn’t a going concern the bank would foreclose.

I’ve seen a hotels with solid reputation, good quality and a decent buzz go for liquidation just as much as the bad ones.

If I could talk **** online constantly and it noticeably increase my turnover Id well do it.

Urm, no?

CosmicJay

_Dara_ wrote: »

Urm, no?

Ah it is tho

Fr_Dougal

CosmicJay wrote: »

It’s doing it’s job though, isn’t it?

The chances are the massive debt run up by the business was most likely by his parents.

If it wasn’t a going concern the bank would foreclose.

I’ve seen a hotels with solid reputation, good quality and a decent buzz go for liquidation just as much as the bad ones.

If I could talk **** online constantly and it noticeably increase my turnover Id well do it.

His parents didn’t bring all the staff on a trip to Disneyland as a knee jerk reaction to some negative social media coverage for taking the piss out of mental health issues. The business could not afford that trip, he did it to protect his ego.

CeilingFly

Heat_Wave wrote: »

Successful? He is €2m in debt. Phoenix magazine regularly post about his poor financial position, hence his desperate cries for free publicity.

Try not believing sensationalist headlines.

Net assets are in excess of €400,000, net profits in 2016 were €91,000. Current liabilities were €81k (that's relatively small)

And remember, this is just the operating company.

The hotel itself is quite a substantial property and is owned outright by his parents.

Muahahaha

fritzelly wrote: »

Many businesses are deeply in debt, not sure why that is part of the discussion.

Yeah but 2 million in debt is quite a lot for a small hotel and cafe. In a time when Dublin tourism is booming those figures do not make for good reading, especially as the loans are due to be paid back in the next 2-5 years. Net profits in accomodation and food are not exactly amazing and it is a labour intense industry with lots of staff to pay. At a guess he will need to do at least 12 million in turnover in order to pay back that 2 million debt. That is a lot of coffees and budget priced beds he needs to sell.

fritzelly

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah but 2 million in debt is quite a lot for a small hotel and cafe. In a time when Dublin tourism is booming those figures do not make for good reading, especially as the loans are due to be paid back in the next 2-5 years. Net profits in accomodation and food are not exactly amazing and it is a labour intense industry with lots of staff to pay. At a guess he will need to do at least 12 million in turnover in order to pay back that 2 million debt. That is a lot of coffees and budget priced beds he needs to sell.

2 million is small change for a business that is making money - people are making more out of it than is necessary, heck wasnt the parliament bar/hotel (think it was them) that owed like 17 million or something (memory failing)

Muahahaha

fritzelly wrote: »

2 million is small change for a business that is making money - people are making more out of it than is necessary, heck wasnt the parliament bar/hotel (think it was them) that owed like 17 million or something (memory failing)

2 million is far from small change for a 30 bedroom budget hotel in the suburbs and with no footfall of note.

Not sure what relevance Celtic Tiger hotel loans are either sure the banks were throwing money at hotels in the boom. Which is why many of them went into receivership- they couldnt pay their loans back.

As I said Stenson needs to generate at least 12 million to pay back that 2 million loan and that is being generous to him as net profits in hospitality are pretty small. Maybe you might be able to tell us how he will generate 12 million from 30 rooms ?

He needs each room to generate 400,000 in the next five years. Even allowing him a 100% occupancy rate for 365 nights a year for a full five years at 100 euro a night x 30 room gives him a turnover of just under 5.5m. And there isnt even a hope he can achieve 100% occupancy for 5 years straight when his location is off the beaten track.

There is absolutely no way you can pay off a 2 million quid loan on a turnover of 5.5m when you have tons of staff to pay, insurance, heating, lights and taxes. If you think it can be done then you know nothing about the hotel industry and how tight the margins are.

Its not looking good for this Stenson lad, the banks will be circling as soon as he misses a loan repayment. Thats the reality here and it is why Phoenix reported on it.

sdanseo

Muahahaha wrote: »

2 million is far from small change for a 30 bedroom budget hotel in the suburbs and with no footfall of note.

Not sure what relevance Celtic Tiger hotel loans are either sure the banks were throwing money at hotels in the boom. Which is why many of them went into receivership- they couldnt pay their loans back.

As I said Stenson needs to generate at least 12 million to pay back that 2 million loan and that is being generous to him as net profits in hospitality are pretty small. Maybe you might be able to tell us how he will generate 12 million from 30 rooms ?

He needs each room to generate 400,000 in the next five years. Even allowing him a 100% occupancy rate for 365 nights a year for a full five years at 100 euro a night x 30 room gives him a turnover of just under 5.5m. And there isnt even a hope he can achieve 100% occupancy for 5 years straight when his location is off the beaten track.

There is absolutely no way you can pay off a 2 million quid loan on a turnover of 5.5m when you have tons of staff to pay, insurance, heating, lights and taxes. If you think it can be done then you know nothing about the hotel industry and how tight the margins are.

Its not looking good for this Stenson lad, the banks will be circling as soon as he misses a loan repayment. Thats the reality here and it is why Phoenix reported on it.

He won't be a poor man if he has to sell - three conjoined Georgian 3-storey properties, well set back from the road and at least the same floor area again extended to the rear. And despite your reservations about location, within walking distance of O'Connell Street and literally on top of Phibsborough Luas.

end of the road

sdanseo wrote: »

My response here will be the same as on a FB post by a lad I know. And adding in summary, if the price we have to pay for the occasional all-out assault on the PC brigade is a little smuggery, then well worth it and may it long continue. -

The tone in which her email written is essentially a begging letter. If you're going to propose a business partnership your initial contact should never include asking for free anything. I wouldn't disassemble the poor girl's character over that though.

What she wasn't to know (and would have discovered, if she'd so much as googled the name of the hotel) was that the owner has a reputation in Ireland for his no **** attitude. It's a bit of comedy for us as much as it is a shot across the bows of bull**** political correctness but the point to be made iis if she'd done her research she'd have known what the outcome would be.

except there is no asalt on "ja pc brigade rabel rabel" everytime stenson goes on one of his rants. his rants are comedy for some, but not many it seems given the businesses are supposibly in debt, and they certainly aren't a shot across the bows of anything, especially "bull**** political correctness rabel rabel"

CosmicJay wrote: »

Ah it is tho

ah but it doesn't seem to be really.

fritzelly

Muahahaha wrote: »

....

You don't know how business is run, doesn't need to make anywhere near that kind of money
So many outs for this business or continue trading with extensions on loans and so on and so on