The Kerry Babies Case

golfball37

The state should recover some of this money from those responsible for this. I’m sure they all on a state pension and we should be taking a nominal amount from this in perpetuity

Snickers Man

Billy86 wrote: »

And that's despite the population going from 3.9mn (2002 census) to 4.75mn in 2016 - with the economy I'd guess we're probably quite comfortably above 4.8mn by now.

Worldometers currently estimates we're over 4.9m. The next census, due next year - - Covid lockdowns permitting - - will probably reveal that we have exceeded 5m for the first time since the mid 19th century.

Reasons for that are, in no particular order: increased life expectancy, curtailment of emigration and a boost in immigration, the latter two being down to a relatively prosperous economy. They offset what has been a plummeting birthrate to something like the European norm, despite the fact that we still have the highest birthrate in the EU. But only just.

Snickers Man

golfball37 wrote: »

The state should recover some of this money from those responsible for this. I’m sure they all on a state pension and we should be taking a nominal amount from this in perpetuity

I think most of them are dead. The original events took place in April/May 1984 and the Tribunal was in 1985. I think only one of the "Murder Squad" detectives is still alive; the judge, Kevin Lynch, who presided over the Tribunal is dead and I suspect the lawyers who acted for the police are all long gone.

Joanne Hayes is in her 60s now and I believe she is the youngest of her siblings, some of whom could be well into their 70s by now.

Personally, I wouldn't begrudge the family a penny.

They should never have been charged, let alone dragged before a tribunal.

Cops screwed up.

TheValeyard

TheValeyard wrote: »

Id have to agree. A fragile innocent baby was stabbed to death. The truth needs to come out, regardless of the past it digs up.

Stabbing (27 times?) speaks to some psychosis or unusual rage.
And to damage his grave?
Is it the same person?

Sardonicat

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Stabbing (27 times?) speaks to some psychosis or unusual rage.
And to damage his grave?
Is it the same person?

You can be sure someone knows something. Poor little mite, to meet his end like that and not only was no one brought to justice and held to account, completely innocent people were pursued and were publicly dragged through the mud.

Sardonicat

Sardonicat wrote: »

You can be sure someone knows something. Poor little mite, to meet his end like that and not only was no one brought to justice and held to account, completely innocent people were pursued and were publicly dragged through the mud.

I only lately realised the distance between Cahirciveen and Abbeydorney. Had assumed she was "local" . Her life was ruined by keystone cops.
At least she is getting some compensation, albeit decades too late.

Baby John deserves justice too, to stab a baby so many times is monstrous or insane

Sardonicat

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

I only lately realised the distance between Cahirciveen and Abbeydorney. Had assumed she was "local" . Her life was ruined by keystone cops.
At least she is getting some compensation, albeit decades too late.

Baby John deserves justice too, to stab a baby so many times is monstrous or insane

Other side of the county and a mountain range away. Not a straightforward journey at all.

Edgware

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

I only lately realised the distance between Cahirciveen and Abbeydorney. Had assumed she was "local" . Her life was ruined by keystone cops.
At least she is getting some compensation, albeit decades too late.

Baby John deserves justice too, to stab a baby so many times is monstrous or insane

Two babies deserve justice. Would Joanne's baby have lived if delivered in a maternity hospital instead of an isolated farmhouse?
Was society's attitude so strict that the poor girl had no option but to try and conceal her pregnancy to the bitter end?

Sardonicat

Edgware wrote: »

Two babies deserve justice. Would Joanne's baby have lived if delivered in a maternity hospital instead of an isolated farmhouse?
Was society's attitude so strict that the poor girl had no option but to try and conceal her pregnancy to the bitter end?

The A and E Dr interviewed by police said it was a common occurrence for an obviously recently post partum woman to present and deny she had had a child. So yes, that should tell you all you need to know about society's attitude at the time. While it was slowly changing, one child out of wedlock to a married man might just about be tolerated a second just might see a visit from social workers, your fitness to parent questioned etc. Joanna had her private parts discussed in open court to try and ascertain if their condition upon examination could reveal if she had sex with lots of men which would throw a light on her character, apparently. In January of that year, a 14 year old girl and her baby died alone, outside in the driving rain, because she had concealed her pregnancy. That is the kind of society this happened in.

jojofizzio

Sardonicat wrote: »

The A and E Dr interviewed by police said it was a common occurrence for an obviously recently post partum woman to present and deny she had had a child. So yes, that should tell you all you need to know about society's attitude at the time. While it was slowly changing, one child out of wedlock to a married man might just about be tolerated a second just might see a visit from social workers, your fitness to parent questioned etc. Joanna had her private parts discussed in open court to try and ascertain if their condition upon examination could reveal if she had sex with lots of men which would throw a light on her character, apparently. In January of that year, a 14 year old girl and her baby died alone, outside in the driving rain, because she had concealed her pregnancy. That is the kind of society this happened in.

Hard to believe this happened in my lifetime....sounds like something out of the Dark Ages:mad::mad:

Sardonicat

jojofizzio wrote: »

Hard to believe this happened in my lifetime....sounds like something out of the Dark Ages:mad::mad:

I have a relative, now in their 39s who was delivered on a bedsit floor and bundled up by his aunt and handed over to a nun friend of said aunt. No questions asked, no ante natal or post partum care of the mother, nothing.. I only found out by accident. Fear of losing custody of her existing children was what compelled her to conceal her pregnancy from everyone except her sister.

jojofizzio

Sardonicat wrote: »

I have a relative, now in their 39s who was delivered on a bedsit floor and bundled up by his aunt and handed over to a nun friend of said aunt. No questions asked, no ante natal or post partum care of the mother, nothing.. I only found out by accident. Fear of losing custody of her existing children was what compelled her to conceal her pregnancy from everyone except her sister.

Mind-boggling that this was going on in our recent past....times have changed so much,one good thing is that this stigma is no more

silliussoddius

Hopefully whenever this case is mentioned in future the name of the Guard in charge will be mentioned along with it, at the time he probably thought he was going to get away with it and now his legacy will be this case.

silliussoddius

silliussoddius wrote: »

Hopefully whenever this case is mentioned in future the name of the Guard in charge will be mentioned along with it, at the time he probably thought he was going to get away with it and now his legacy will be this case.

For someone so wrong, he was pretty adamant he was right.
Was he that inebriated with his own self importantance and confidence?
He even wanted Scotland Yard in to review the case.

Bannasidhe

Edgware wrote: »

Two babies deserve justice. Would Joanne's baby have lived if delivered in a maternity hospital instead of an isolated farmhouse?
Was society's attitude so strict that the poor girl had no option but to try and conceal her pregnancy to the bitter end?

1984.

The same year 15 year old Ann Lovett died giving birth beside a grotto in Longford.
A year after The 8th Amendment was written into the Irish Constitution.
The Magdalene Laundries were still in operation.

Ireland was not a good place to be a young woman. I remember it well. I was 19 years old when I got the hell out in 1983, and followed the "Kerry Babies" case closely. Even those who didn't think she was responsible for murder thought she should be shamed for getting pregnant while unmarried.
One of the few people publicly fighting in Joanne Hayes corner was Nell McCafferty.

sunbeam

I was 11 turning 12 in 1984.

I remember Nell McCafferty gave a talk in UCG in the early 90s and asked us if any of us had heard about the case. She thought we might be too young to remember it. Everyone in that lecture theatre raised their hands when she asked.

dxhound2005

Snickers Man wrote: »

Worldometers currently estimates we're over 4.9m. The next census, due next year - - Covid lockdowns permitting - - will probably reveal that we have exceeded 5m for the first time since the mid 19th century.

The next Census is April 2022.

Antares35

Was it ever ascertained how her own baby died or if it was stillborn?

igCorcaigh

sunbeam wrote: »

I was 11 turning 12 in 1984.

I remember Nell McCafferty gave a talk in UCG in the early 90s and asked us if any of us had heard about the case. She thought we might be too young to remember it. Everyone in that lecture theatre raised their hands when she asked.

I was the same age too, born in '73, I also remember the Ann Lovett case.
They were in the news from what I remember, but I didn't understand the context at the time.

It seems like another world now, but really not that long ago.

jimmycrackcorm

Snickers Man wrote: »

I think most of them are dead. The original events took place in April/May 1984 and the Tribunal was in 1985. I think only one of the "Murder Squad" detectives is still alive; the judge, Kevin Lynch, who presided over the Tribunal is dead and I suspect the lawyers who acted for the police are all long gone.

Joanne Hayes is in her 60s now and I believe she is the youngest of her siblings, some of whom could be well into their 70s by now.

Personally, I wouldn't begrudge the family a penny.

They should never have been charged, let alone dragged before a tribunal.

Cops screwed up.

Yes the Guards screwed up the investigation, but there's very little said about this: "Hayes had already delivered her child – a baby boy who had died during or after his birth on the farm. She told gardaí this, explaining that after the labour she panicked and returned to the farmhouse. A day later, she returned to the spot to find the baby’s body. She put the remains in a paper bag and then a plastic bag before placing them in a pond elsewhere on the 65-acre farm."

I know well it was another era regarding unmarried mothers. But abandoning a defenceless baby like that is a cruel action. It might be excused by post-natal depression for example, yet she is now lauded and entitled to compensation?

Galwayguy35

Remember it well even though i was only 10 at the time, she was treated very badly and deserves the money she got.

Unfortunately the murdered baby won't ever get justice after all these years i think.

Antares35

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Yes the Guards screwed up the investigation, but there's very little said about this: "Hayes had already delivered her child – a baby boy who had died during or after his birth on the farm. She told gardaí this, explaining that after the labour she panicked and returned to the farmhouse. A day later, she returned to the spot to find the baby’s body. She put the remains in a paper bag and then a plastic bag before placing them in a pond elsewhere on the 65-acre farm."

I know well it was another era regarding unmarried mothers. But abandoning a defenceless baby like that is a cruel action. It might be excused by post-natal depression for example, yet she is now lauded and entitled to compensation?

Why wasnt an investigation carried out to determine the cause of death of her own baby?

Sardonicat

Antares35 wrote: »

Why wasnt an investigation carried out to determine the cause of death of her own baby?

There was a post mortem. Even the umbilical chord eas examined. Joanna stated that she severed it with her hand and the coroner ssid that wasn't possible. At some point in the tribunal a midwife was put on the stand to give evidence and demonstrated that it was in fact possible. The baby died shortly before or just after delivery. As Joanna had no ante natal care and had been in labour for hours alone that is not at all surprising.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Yes the Guards screwed up the investigation, but there's very little said about this: "Hayes had already delivered her child – a baby boy who had died during or after his birth on the farm. She told gardaí this, explaining that after the labour she panicked and returned to the farmhouse. A day later, she returned to the spot to find the baby’s body. She put the remains in a paper bag and then a plastic bag before placing them in a pond elsewhere on the 65-acre farm."

I know well it was another era regarding unmarried mothers. But abandoning a defenceless baby like that is a cruel action. It might be excused by post-natal depression for example, yet she is now lauded and entitled to compensation?

Well, it’s not clear there whether the baby was stillborn or not. Or if it died shortly after the birth. The state pathologist was unable to confirm the cause of death.

The compensation is for the coercion into confessing to the murder of baby John.

Antares35 wrote: »

Why wasnt an investigation carried out to determine the cause of death of her own baby?

There was, I think. Cause of death couldn’t be determined.

Bannasidhe

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I know well it was another era regarding unmarried mothers. But abandoning a defenceless baby like that is a cruel action. It might be excused by post-natal depression for example, yet she is now lauded and entitled to compensation?

How very 1984 judgemental statement that is. Exactly the kind of 'no smoke without fire, she has to be guilty of something' nonsense prevalent then.

She did not abandon "a defenceless baby" - to be blunt she ran away from a corpse.
As for "might be excused by post natal depression" - that comment is beneath contempt casting doubt, as it does, on the very real trauma that is PND, and completely ignores the trauma of being alone, in a field, in labour for hours only to be faced with a dead or dying baby - she panicked. She ran.
And she paid some price for it.

Do you dare judge her? Are you so lacking in compassion?

Caquas

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, it’s not clear there whether the baby was stillborn or not. Or if it died shortly after the birth. The state pathologist was unable to confirm the cause of death.

The compensation is for the coercion into confessing to the murder of baby John.



There was, I think. Cause of death couldn’t be determined.

The State Pathologist was not able to determine the cause of the baby's death but the Tribunal believed Joanne Hayes when she told the psychiatrist that she had put her hand over the baby's mouth.

The whole saga was a horrible mess from beginning to end and the Gardai come badly out of it but so do the Hayes family and, I think, parts of the media. I doubt if those who decided on this settlement have read the original Tribunal report written by a distinguished judge, ultimately on the Supreme Court, who bitterly resented the media's treatment of the Tribunal.

The most important facts are that the Caherciveen baby was stabbed to death most horribly and the Tralee baby smothered at birth and its birth was concealed, a crime in itself. No justice for the innocents, certainly no millions in damages. They weren't even given the dignity of a name but, thirty six years later, taxpayer millions are showered on the family of the Tralee baby.

buried

Over 1500 years ago a young woman and her family would have had more rights and protection on our island than the Hayes had in 1984. And that is a fact. That is the most sickening aspect of this. Plenty of other innocent Irish children thrown into oblivion too, all on the voodoo power of a foreign Death Cult from Rome who worshiped some lad that came from the eastern fringes of the Mediterranean over in the sands of Egypt. No amount of compensation will ever be enough for what the vatican taliban scum did to this island, when they were let in here and were basically let loose and given the power to literally terrify and brainwashed our own people into acts of total subjugation, desperation and pain.

They were allowed to do the ultimate number on us and nobody should ever forget it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Caquas wrote: »

The State Pathologist was not able to determine the cause of the baby's death but the Tribunal believed Joanne Hayes when she told the psychiatrist that she had put her hand over the baby's mouth.

The whole saga was a horrible mess from beginning to end and the Gardai come badly out of it but so do the Hayes family and, I think, parts of the media. I doubt if those who decided on this settlement have read the original Tribunal report written by a distinguished judge, ultimately on the Supreme Court, who bitterly resented the media's treatment of the Tribunal.

The most important facts are that the Caherciveen baby was stabbed to death most horribly and the Tralee baby smothered at birth and its birth was concealed, a crime in itself. No justice for the innocents, certainly no millions in damages. They weren't even given the dignity of a name but, thirty six years later, taxpayer millions are showered on the family of the Tralee baby.

I know, the babies are who I think of the most when reading about this case. It was such a circus (or so I understand. I was busy filling my nappy with poo at the time so can’t say I remember it) that I feel like those two little souls were forgotten about.

I wouldn’t say it’s been established as fact that the Tralee baby was smothered though.

Bannasidhe

Caquas wrote: »

The State Pathologist was not able to determine the cause of the baby's death .... and the Tralee baby smothered at birth and its birth was concealed, a crime in itself.

And here we are again.
If there was even a shred of proof that Joanne Hayes was directly responsible for the death of her baby she would have been charged.
If there was proof positive she would have been tried and convicted.

It matters not a damn what the tribunal 'believed'. There is no proof of these crimes you are claiming she committed.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How very 1984 judgemental statement that is. Exactly the kind of 'no smoke without fire, she has to be guilty of something' nonsense prevalent then.

She did not abandon "a defenceless baby" - to be blunt she ran away from a corpse.
As for "might be excused by post natal depression" - that comment is beneath contempt casting doubt, as it does, on the very real trauma that is PND, and completely ignores the trauma of being alone, in a field, in labour for hours only to be faced with a dead or dying baby - she panicked. She ran.
And she paid some price for it.

Do you dare judge her? Are you so lacking in compassion?

How very judgemental yourself!

You can have compassion for both JH and her baby Shane, and any of the tragic stories of the time.

But there is no evidence she ran from "a corpse" or "a defenceless baby". Thats an assumption. Had Shane a probability of survival after JH's trauma? no, probably not.

But no one as far as I'm aware, knows how or when that baby died. Could the baby have survived with proper pre/post natal care ? Who knows. To postulate isn't a condemnation of JH.

But her particular circumstances were more advantageous than poor Ann Lovett for example. She was in a relationship with the father JL , they already had a daughter together. She was bringing her up in the family home.

And that's not a heartless judgement on any girl going through such trauma alone, however you read it, nor a defence of the shocking treatment of women in our past.