The Kerry Babies Case

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410746#Comment_120410746

If i murdered someone id probably be a bit scared and traumatized whenever it came up on the news too to be fair.

rubbledoubledo

Well I hope someone is brought to justice. Should be fairly straight forward now for the guards. I have no bother thinking back 40 years what I was doing at that time , not to mind if you had a baby, that’s a major event in a persons life. And as a poster stated here, if a person had a baby and the baby was taken from them, and then a baby was found in the shore few days after, would that person not be thinking

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410746#Comment_120410746

Yeah I do agree she or they have no doubt suffered through the years - but that still doesn't make the silence right.

The bit I have the difficulty with is her watching Joanne Hayes's life being ruined and staying silent. Ireland is a different place than it was in 1984 - I think if the mother had come forward herself she would have been dealt with in a more compassionate manner in the last 20/30 years than the 80s. I don't believe the mother murdered the baby - someone vile was responsible for that. She had the power to stop Joanne's Hayes's life being ruined though- Joanne is in her sixties now and has lived with the shame of this for most of her life - imagine how sad that is? This woman would have watched as this story came out again and again.

It's a very sad case all round - seeing an innocent person's life ruined for 39 years though cannot be defended.

rubbledoubledo

At the end of the day, there was a murder committed

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409846#Comment_120409846

Has anyone on Boards suggested it should be let slide?

All I can see is some people reserving judgement until we know the full facts and not deciding that the murderer was definitely one or both of Baby John's parents.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409811#Comment_120409811

The immaculate conception dogma established in 1850's coming from the belief that women and sex were inherently sinful and they couldn't countenance Jesus being born to a sinful woman. These changes in dogma of course played massively into the woman hating policies established in the Catholic church here over the subsequent 100 years and ultimately contributing to the environment in which the events under discussion occurred. An environment where any "transgression" of the norms associated with the catholic doctrine was to to be hidden from view and the assumption that the "fallen" woman was wicked was pervasive, which was likely one of the factors that played into the assumptions the investigation made around Ms Hayes.

Beechwoodspark

RTÉ should show the film about the Joanne Hayes case instead of the late late this week.

Beechwoodspark

This is the film. Warning - many scenes in it are absolutely shocking

OUT OF INNOCENCE

A new-born baby’s body is washed up on a deserted beach, shocking a rural community. On the same night eighty kilometres away , a young mother gives birth to a stillborn baby. Out of Innocence is set at a time of disharmony for women in Ireland, and inspired by the Kerry Babies Case which saw Joanne Hayes wrongly accused of infanticide and her and her family dragged through a prolonged and inhumane criminal investigation. The case (which coincided with the Ann Lovett case) became a landmark in Irish social history and contributed to societal change and the decline in the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

Dramatised with masterful restraint by Fionnuala Flaherty (Foscadh) and Fiona Shaw against an almost colourless palette, the film evokes the grim oppressions of smalltown Ireland in the 1980s.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410197#Comment_120410197

If she was young (someone said possibly as young as 11), then its quite possible that she disassociated during the entire birth, and has no *conscious* knowledge of it, or explanation for the state of her body afterwards.

Especially if the pregnancy was the result of rape.

But some adult (her mother, a midwife, doctor, etc) must have known.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120411066#Comment_120411066

Yet tghe bible stated that Mary Magdalene was a peostitute and that Jesus forgave her and even associated with her. Strange.

Water John

The catholic church in Ireland took a sharp tack to the right in the second half of the 19th C.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410791#Comment_120410791

Oh she murdered the baby now when did that comebout

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410802#Comment_120410802

Just because she had the baby does not mean she killed it or she knows who did. Withholding information and whatever else yet but not a 100% fact it was her who killed him. Who knows the person or persons maybe dead

Water John

The DPP will be slow to move on this unless they have a compelling case. The time factor alone. May not be what a lot of people want to hear, but fairly likely.

Balagan1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120411748#Comment_120411748

That's Jesus all over with his forgiveness and kindness. He didn't have the makings of good Catholic!

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410808#Comment_120410808

But could she have come forward then. If she was as young as I have heard she may not have known the news then and by the time she was old enough and brave enough the whole affair with Joanne Hayes was over and for some reason of fear she did not come forward. I know I had no idea of what was is the news for a long time in my late teens as it was not something children or teens cares about and even if at that young age she did suspect the vitriol at the time and fear of would whoever killed her baby may kill her also kept her silent.

Not saying she is not completely innocent but a lot of people jumping through hopes just to get the punishment they want to see to feel happy imo

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120411606#Comment_120411606

It's being reported that it's a full sibling match, so both parents are, it seems, together.

ozmo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120411748#Comment_120411748

No, in the Bible no.. Think that only got added later - 591AD according to this (link), by accident. But it stuck.

That also mentions in 1969 the then Pope clarified it was a mixup.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120411907#Comment_120411907

I was bought up in a house where the news was watched on TV and newspapers were purchased. At the time most houses were the same - you couldnt avoid news like kids can now. Most people only had 2 channels to watch on TV so you had to watch the news. This case was a huge story at the time and was bought up again and again in the media over the years. While she may have been shielded at the time there is no way she would have avoided the story as the years went by. If this person is the mother she even lived in the county it occurred in. Yes she may have been threatened into silence but that threat would have diminished over the years. She allowed Joanne Hayes's life to be ruined by staying silent - thats a crime in itself in my opinion.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120411976#Comment_120411976

I was a kid in the 80s and if watched the news if I was up never would have taken any interest was playing with something. Maybe I am weird.

To say kids can now avoid news now is stupid it's everywhere and anywhere. If anything watch easier in the time of 2 channels and no 24 hour news. To say she had to know is idiotic. Could she have known if she was that young maybe but I would put it in single digits.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412010#Comment_120412010

Kids can avoid news easily now - all they have to do is to switch to something else. My kids wont even watch ads - anything that bores them they have no interest in. In the 80's we had to watch it as there was nothing else to switch to. It was on in the background even if you were playing so you were taking some in even if not actively listening.. She would have had to have been locked away to avoid the news or reading a newspaper!

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412031#Comment_120412031

If anyone in who family was involved with the babies death I doubt they would have wanted to discuss it and what kid even in the 80's was reading a newspaper

chooseusername

I did not realised Baby John lived for 3 days before being killed.

So he must have been fed, but by who?

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412092#Comment_120412092

Probably the mother....then they were found out and whoever found them went into a fit of rage. Pure speculation obviously!

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412078#Comment_120412078

If the mother was old enough to conceive, carry and deliver a full term baby, I would hardly call her a kid.

This was big local and national news for years after 1984, so she would have heard it as a mature woman.

thebackbar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412145#Comment_120412145

one would wonder did the neighbours know too ? or was she kept hidden whilst she appeared pregnant

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412092#Comment_120412092

5 days i read.

Balagan1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412078#Comment_120412078

Virtually every home got a weekly local newspaper and a Sunday paper and even in very rural areas anyone going into town would pick up a daily or evening paper. Unless there was a literacy problem and/or extreme poverty, then adults and young teens were indeed reading newspapers, especially if there was a local dimension to the stories.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412145#Comment_120412145

Precocious puberty can occur, it doesn't a mature body to conceive, carry and deliver a full-term baby.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina

If the woman arrested is proven to be Baby John's mother she could have been anywhere between 11 and 20, there's a chance she was a child.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410808#Comment_120410808

Yeah I do agree she or they have no doubt suffered through the years - but that still doesn't make the silence right.

The bit I have the difficulty with is her watching Joanne Hayes's life being ruined and staying silent. Ireland is a different place than it was in 1984 - I think if the mother had come forward herself she would have been dealt with in a more compassionate manner in the last 20/30 years than the 80s.

Another poster alluded to the fact that the woman arrested, if she was the mother could have been aas young as 11 when John was born.

Just think for a minute how young that is to be going through this.

Do you really think that she and her family would fell comfortable putting up their hands and admitting it was them after what they saw happened to Joanne Hayes?

Obviously she could also have been closer to 20 when all this happened but regardless I still don't think a 20 year old would be that forthcoming after what happened.