The Kerry Babies Case

daithi1970

Dakota Dan wrote: »

So whoever followed the Catholic Church at the time are all guilty of a crime they didn't commit.

..I assume you're familiar with the doctrine of Original Sin?

Owta Control

daithi1970 wrote: »

..I assume you're familiar with the doctrine of Original Sin?

I've heard of it.. haven't a clue what it is though... enlightenment would be lovely

Odhinn

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Absolutely correct.
But Joanne was charged with the Cahersiveen murder after she and her family confessed.Why?

They went down, slapped them round a bit and the family confessed to the story the gardai gave them. They were then charged in light of this.

Odhinn

RustyNut wrote: »

Some effort should also be made to bring the people who attempted to stitch her up to justice.

They were "sidelined" which is about as good as it gets in this state. Generally its seen as far easier to hang the victim than face up to the problem with agents of the state. Senior gardai, due to their role in intelligence gathering, tend to have a certain immunity, given that they often know the "dirt" on various political and civil service figures, and of course each other.

RustyNut

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I somehow doubt those same mistakes will be made again.

If you’ve done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear and frankly I would question the morals of anyone who put their own interests above those of a murdered baby.

I think anyone who read the evidence that the Gardai gave in the Jobstown water protesters case would have good reason to be afraid of getting stitched up.

The best predictor of future behavior is … past behavior

Odhinn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I somehow doubt those same mistakes will be made again.

If you’ve done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear ........

There's never been any attempt to seriously address failings in the Gardai, eg
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nicky-kelly-still-seeks-answers-for-sallins-train-robbery-arrest-1.2598157
As a result, I'd be quite fearful indeed.

Owta Control

Odhinn wrote: »

There's never been any attempt to seriously address failings in the Gardai, eg
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nicky-kelly-still-seeks-answers-for-sallins-train-robbery-arrest-1.2598157
As a result, I'd be quite fearful indeed.

Have you done something wrong?

Odhinn

Owta Control wrote: »

Have you done something wrong?

Why do you ask?

daithi1970

Owta Control wrote: »

I've heard of it.. haven't a clue what it is though... enlightenment would be lovely

As Catholics,we are all born with the original sin of Eve upon our souls. The only way to be cleansed of this original sin is to be baptised with the rites of the Roman Catholic Church. Those who die before baptism is possible still have the original sin of Eve on their souls, and as such their souls can never go to Heaven,but must remain in Limbo.,a place of nothingness,which is neither heaven,purgatory, or hell.
Recently, the RCC have said that the whole limbo doctrine may be in question,by saying that the mercy and love of God may save souls from limbo. However,the docrtine of limbo has never been fully repudiated. Interestingly, it was believed during the Middle Ages that all unbaptised babies were damned to Hell........

Sardonicat

Day Lewin wrote: »

Her father was present. Her sister committed suicide a year later. Draw your own conclusions.

Where did you get the information that her father was present? Ann was found, dying of blood loss and exposure, next to the body of her stillborn son, by some school boys. They went to raise the alarm.

Ann died shortly after in hospital. She was 15 years old.

Her sister, Patricia, took her own life three months later. She was 14 years old.

I remember this case and the Kerry Babies case well. I was thirteen years old at the time.

Truly horrific events and a damnimg reflection of our society at the time. A few months after the country voted for protection of life of the unborn our news papers and broadcasts were dominated by stories featuring dead babies and children.

NewbridgeIR

At the time, the Irish Independent published a selection of Ned Hayes' Inter Cert results (they weren't too good) in an attempt to belittle him and the family.

justfillmein

up for anything wrote: »

You had to be there!

Having a baby out of wedlock back then was probably one of the worst things that could happen to a woman. Joanne Hayes while still unmarried had given birth to second baby who was born dead. At a guess I would say she was traumatised by hiding the pregnancy, traumatised by probably giving birth outside and in secret with the memory of Ann Lovett's death only two months previously fresh in her mind and the baby was dead so a proper burial wasn't first and foremost in her mind I would imagine. As for registering a name... seriously you have absolutely no idea of what it was like back then.

thanks for writing this.
I wasn't born when this all happened, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is what it was like for that girl at the time.

some people here questioning why she kept it all secret. she kept it secret because her situation was a 'dirty little secret':(

justfillmein

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I would have there an then.

I wouldn't want to be part of that club anyway, but how can anyone who has that said to their face not come to their senses & question whether their child should even be blessed into a crowd with such c*ntish idea's like that. it's not just that she was insulted, but her child was looked down on too:mad:

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

They went down, slapped them round a bit and the family confessed to the story the gardai gave them. They were then charged in light of this.

Where do you find evidence of this slapping?

Buford T. Justice XIX

justfillmein wrote: »

I would have there an then.

I wouldn't want to be part of that club anyway, but how can anyone who has that said to their face not come to their senses & question whether their child should even be blessed into a crowd with such c*ntish idea's like that. it's not just that she was insulted, but her child was looked down on too:mad:

A large percentage of the population appreciated the general social moral compass provided by the idealised doctrine of Christianity while abhorring the doctrine of the supposed keepers of the faith.

Ralf and Florian

goose2005 wrote: »

even if you did somehow find someone who was possibly the mother/father of John, I don't think it would be possible to prosecute

Whys that Sherlock?

justfillmein

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A large percentage of the population appreciated the general social moral compass provided by the idealised doctrine of Christianity while abhorring the doctrine of the supposed keepers of the faith.

so have your moral beliefs and stand on your own.
you dont need to join any club that thinks of you as a slut and your child as being a bastard

Buford T. Justice XIX

justfillmein wrote: »

so have your moral beliefs and stand on your own.
you dont need to join any club that thinks of you as a slut and your child as being a bastard

Dress it like that if you wish.

But you know well what was meant.

One eyed Jack

justfillmein wrote: »

so have your moral beliefs and stand on your own.
you dont need to join any club that thinks of you as a slut and your child as being a bastard

One fcukwit doesn't represent the opinions of the whole club, and by that I mean that most members of either the clergy, or the congregation, weren't anything like that one particular idiot. The stories you'll hear are rare, and for good reason - simply because they are rare, and were just as rare then too.


Good article written in the Journal here (now there's a sentence I didn't think I'd ever write!) -


'The Kerry Babies case was a clash of traditional and new modern Ireland'

justfillmein

One eyed Jack wrote: »

One fcukwit doesn't represent the opinions of the whole club, and by that I mean that most members of either the clergy, or the congregation, weren't anything like that one particular idiot

yes I do get that,
but I still feel the same, I would question whether it was something I wanted my child part of at all..

(just want to say, I don't want to take away from the op, just that this boils my blood)

mick malones mauser

I remember this case very well.
Police get an entire family to confess to a crime they couldn't possibly have committed. Charges eventually dropped and a Tribunal of enquiry INTO THE BEHAVIOUR OF THE POLICE becomes a circus in which the judge allows Counsel for the police to use a smokescreen of questions about Joanna Hayes sex life (gleefully reported by cheerleaders in the press) to deflect from POLICE wrong doing.
And still to this day that O'Carroll clown is allowed spout his nonsense.
And of course the murder of a new born still unsolved.

koumi

yay Ireland

justfillmein

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Dress it like that if you wish.

But you know well what was meant.

sorry I missed this^

i'm actually not sure what you are saying to me here??

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Where do you find evidence of this slapping?

The hayes family, and certainly joanne hayes. were certainly beaten.

Considering whats been revealed about the Gardai in relation to nicky kelly, frank mc brearty, their own members, protests, this incident, dean lyons and so on, is a few clatters that suprising?

twowheelsonly

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Who’s going to be stitched up this time?

Less chance of a stitch up with DNA this time around.

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Absolutely correct.
But Joanne was charged with the Cahersiveen murder after she and her family confessed.Why?

Because of bull-headed people like Gerry O'Carroll, who's stll intent on making a fool of himself.


My own feeling (re the Baby John case) is that Gardai are pretty sure of the circumstances at this stage and are trying to flush somebody out. Just a hunch but I find it interesting that they themselves seem to have brought this to the forefront again despite the damnation they knew they'd be facing.

JP Liz V1

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Seems the long arm of the law will now be going around Cahersiveen
lookin for dna samples from everyone. If I lived there I’d tell them where to go!

Why if helps catch a killer and determine who the baby is

Wombatman

A court order is needed to take a DNA sample. It is costly to process the samples. All the talk of DNA is just to flush someone out as mentioned earlier.

AGS said

"Locals in the area will also be invited to submit DNA samples - if they wish to do so - in order to rule themselves out from the investigation."

This is pretty much bullsh1t from a practical and legal perspective, but you can see its purpose, to panic a suspect into a false move.

It's hard to hide a secret like this for all these years without word or rumours getting out. AGS did damn all investigating at the time because they were fixated with Hayes. I expect they have a good idea who they are after, maybe someone who has returned to the country recently.

https://amp.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/garda-to-seek-dna-samples-36496191.html

MrJones1973

Im curious why this case has been reopened now ? It was established 33 years ago that joanne hayes was not the mother ? The Dna sample only reaffirmed this. 33 years is a long time to leave this case on a shelf .

Wombatman

MrJones1973 wrote: »

Im curious why this case has been reopened now ? It was established 33 years ago that joanne hayes was not the mother ? The Dna sample only reaffirmed this. 33 years is a long time to leave this case on a shelf .

AGS badly need good publicity after all the scandals. One way to do it is to break a high profile case. They tried it with Trevor Deely and failed miserably. This could be next on the list and they may already have their culprit.

Pawwed Rig

Wombatman wrote: »

AGS badly need good publicity after all the scandals. One way to do it is to break a high profile case. They tried it with Trevor Deely and failed miserably. This could be next on the list and they may already have their culprit.

Or maybe it is an under resourced cold cases unit that is going through cases one at a time.
Alternatively maybe someone died who they thought were blocking the investigation some way