Hyundai Kona EV pre orders open

Shefwedfan

DrPhilG wrote: »

Same for me. I can live with the Leaf a while longer. My worry is that by the end of the year demand will be so high that the Kona and Niro will both be at the end of a 6-8 month waiting list!

I would guess the likes of VW etc are watching this launch very carefully. If these things sell out very quickly I would expect the other vendors to ramp up quickly and try and get electric cars on the road.

I know everyone will mention Tesla but really is it a big concern in Europe yet? especially to risk analysis in the likes of VW.....

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Will a taxi driver buy one at 28k though? WIll they qualify as taxis?

Zoe qualifies :eek:

Linky

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Zoe qualifies :eek:

Linky

Wow. So the Zoe qualifies but not the eGolf.
Ireland eh?

In that case it should clearly qualify. Could we see a load of Kona EV taxis?

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Any electric car at the moment is not targetted for the person buying a baseline entry model car. It is for the middle to high end market.

I wouldn't have bought Ioniq if it had cost me €30k

The only reason I could justify buying it (buying a new car in general) was that it cost about the same as a fairly basic spec diesel or petrol family size hatchback.
The savings in owning it would make up for the depreciation of a new car

But that was then and this is now. I fully get the 21k vs 35k but it isn't an issue here as the demand for EVs (even at premiums) is now greater than the supply. See the oversubscription of the Kona when it was launched in Norway. They will sell here too, I've no doubt.

DrPhilG

General chatter on speakev.com is that the PCP deals are terrible.

Might increase the availability for the rest.

Shefwedfan

DrPhilG wrote: »

General chatter on speakev.com is that the PCP deals are terrible.

Might increase the availability for the rest.

I was told 12 months ago by Nissan/Hyundai dealer not to go PCP on electric, this was due to the residual value on the car...

Based on the conversation I had recently with lease company this seems to be still an issue with electric cars.

I know the market for second hand BEV is good at the moment but companies are unwilling to take that chance until it can be shown long term.....

No idea what the offers are like on Leaf 2 on PCP, are they decent or terrible?

grogi

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was told 12 months ago by Nissan/Hyundai dealer not to go PCP on electric, this was due to the residual value on the car...

Based on the conversation I had recently with lease company this seems to be still an issue with electric cars.

I know the market for second hand BEV is good at the moment but companies are unwilling to take that chance until it can be shown long term.....

No idea what the offers are like on Leaf 2 on PCP, are they decent or terrible?

What difference does it make? It is only the monthly payment that is different, but in the end you pay exactly the same (actually you'd pay less with non-zero APR and bigger monthly payments).

Shefwedfan

grogi wrote: »

What difference does it make? It is only the monthly payment that is different, but in the end you pay exactly the same (actually you'd pay less with non-zero APR and bigger monthly payments).

Just the advice I was given when looking at a new Leaf/Ioniq. I didn't buy new so I never followed it to check the exact details...

In regards to lease company, the cost per month for the car can be nearly double if you look at the equivalent spec diesel/petrol model.

If I look at a Golf, it is 0% but if you go for eGolf then it is 1.9% so the eGolf interest will cost more over the term of contract compared to Golf equivalent.

unkel

Just heard that the Netherlands had an allocation of 1500 Kona EV. All 64kWh, 3 spec levels, with the cheapest coming in at €39k :eek:

All were sold out straight away, the waiting list is now already over 11 months for anyone who missed out

DrPhilG

€39k after incentives? That's a huge price.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

€39k after incentives? That's a huge price.

But if they only have like 10 to sell they will sell at that price, artificially creating demand - similar strategy with the Ioniq

ewj1978

DrPhilG wrote: »

€39k after incentives? That's a huge price.

Which if compared to LEAF 40kw prices means it'll be ~€35k in Ireland.

bp_me

DrPhilG wrote: »

€39k after incentives? That's a huge price.

To be fair... there appears to be almost no incentive in NL. You skip purchase tax (BPM) which is somewhere around €350 and it's currently exempt from motor tax (MRB) which based on the weight from Bjorn's video would be €296 per quarter otherwise. Though being an EV it's obviously penalised on weight.. a more normal weight vehicle around that size would be more like €180 per quarter.

There's also a whole lot less chance of someone actually having their own driveway to park on!

unkel

bp_me wrote: »

To be fair... there appears to be almost no incentive in NL.

You are very mistaken there! Indeed there is the same €5k subsidy as here. But they also have a VRT like system for which there is no discount and the VAT in Ireland is higher (hence the price being about €4k higher over there)

But EVs attract zero BIK, which is a huge saving in NL. Guess what EVs are the best selling in NL? Number 1 is Tesla Model S and Number 2 is Tesla Model X :cool:

Company directors / higher management in the Netherlands copped on a long time ago that it costs the same to drive a Tesla Model S as it costs to drive a BMW 520d. If only Irish company directors were as quick copping on

bp_me

unkel wrote: »

You are very mistaken there! Indeed there is the same €5k subsidy as here. But they also have a VRT like system for which there is no discount and the VAT in Ireland is higher (hence the price being about €4k higher over there)

But EVs attract zero BIK, which is a huge saving in NL. Guess what EVs are the best selling in NL? Number 1 is Tesla Model S and Number 2 is Tesla Model X :cool:

Fair enough. I did go looking but didn't find the 5k incentive.

DrPhilG

The Kona looks like beating the model X in the race.

Shefwedfan

DrPhilG wrote: »

The Kona looks like beating the model X in the race.

No massive surprise to be honest....

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's not really 21k. I have used this for reference before. My sister in law bought new CH-R Hybrid. It was close on 35-36k she paid for it.

That is what it will be up against. Not a baseline petrol model

The base hybrid CH-R is 31k. That is before delivery cost etc

The Premium Kona petrol Kona is 31k.

I sat in the baseline Kona, not something I would buy or anyone I know would buy

Yeah but low spec cars are common in Ireland, of course some people will buy the higher spec cars but I suspect the majority do not.

What's the most popular spec in the Petrol Kona in Ireland does anyone know ?

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah but low spec cars are common in Ireland, of course some people will buy the higher spec cars but I suspect the majority do not.

What's the most popular spec in the Petrol Kona in Ireland does anyone know ?

You can guesstimate from the tax bands.


1,288 Sold
272 A4 - 1.0 Comfort

976 B1 - 1.0 Executive / 1.0 Premium

40 C - 1.6 Premium DCT.


But it really doesn't matter, the Kona Electric is going to sell out of it's allocation. Hyundai Ireland should sell the highest spec to maximize their profit.

redlead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah but low spec cars are common in Ireland, of course some people will buy the higher spec cars but I suspect the majority do not.

What's the most popular spec in the Petrol Kona in Ireland does anyone know ?

I don't think this is the case as much as it used to be. I bought a new car last year and I'd say about 80% of the same car I see on the road are the middle to high spec range. I've hardly seen any basic spec. Easily identifiable because they don't have tinted windows / a lot of the chrome etc. PCP has probably changed this as it often doesn't cost a lot more to get higher spec. You'll often see a highline VW work out cheaper per month than a lower model because they off 0% finance on high lines and not others etc.

I think the only people really buying base spec now are the likes of 3 series and A4 drivers who want the premium brand but struggle to add the extra 10k on to the base model.

The 3 series and A4s are far different beasts to Hyundai.

PCP is great, on my 2nd now, once people are aware how it works it's a great way to drive a new car.

FriendsEV

DrPhilG wrote: »

The Kona looks like beating the model X in the race.

Where is the video?

Don't see it on his channel

liamog

At the end of the race, the Kona won by about 30s.
Basically calling it as a draw for 971km, the route only had 50kW CCS chargers.

64kWh Kona using 50kW CCS finished a 940km in the same time as a Model X P90D using Tesla Superchargers.

The Tesla did 5 supercharger stops, the Kona 2 CCS.
Finished with 14% (Tesla) and 10% (Kona)

ELM327

Interesting.
Another brilliant Hyundai EV for efficiency and charging speed, beating other EVs with much larger batteries.
(28kWh Ioniq vs 60kWh Bolt and now the arguably even more remarkable 64kWh Kona defeating a 90kWh Model X)

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

Interesting.
Another brilliant Hyundai EV for efficiency and charging speed, beating other EVs with much larger batteries.
(28kWh Ioniq vs 60kWh Bolt and now the arguably even more remarkable 64kWh Kona defeating a 90kWh Model X)

Shhh... wait until we get our Konas, then we can say how great they are. There might not be enough to go around.

redlead

To be fair the Model X is a much bigger car. Very impressive all the same.

ELM327

And it was a bit pointless because anyone considering an X won't be buying a Kona and vice versa in all likelihood.

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

And it was a bit pointless because anyone considering an X won't be buying a Kona and vice versa in all likelihood.

You may as well argue a 1.6D Fiesta is a better car than a 2L TDCI Mondeo because of its better efficiency.

Question, why did the Tesla charge 5 times during a 1,000Km trip .. surely it has a far superior range than that?

ELM327

creedp wrote: »

You may as well argue a 1.6D Fiesta is a better car than a 2L TDCI Mondeo because of its better efficiency.

Question, why did the Tesla charge 5 times during a 1,000Km trip .. surely it has a far superior range than that?

Probably down to Supercharger placement? The range on 90% should be at least 280-300km - especially in country with such low speed limits as norway.


If it wasn't Bjorn I'd suggest that the race was staged to make the Kona win, as no Tesla would need 5 charges to do 1000km.


I havent watched the stream (waiting for the edited video)

Old diesel

Regardless of the relevance of comparing a Tesla to a Hyundai.

1000 kms on two rapids is very impressive in its own right even allowing for the lower speeds*.

*if this is the same route Bjorn used for the Leaf rapidgate tests then there seems to be a fair amount of single carrigeway on it.

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

Regardless of the relevance of comparing a Tesla to a Hyundai.

1000 kms on two rapids is very impressive in its own right even allowing for the lower speeds*.

*if this is the same route Bjorn used for the Leaf rapidgate tests then there seems to be a fair amount of single carrigeway on it.

Did the Kona only use 2 DC charges?
So it must have been ~1 hour for each charge?


Stll that's very impressive - even more so for an econobox from Korea

liamog

Yep two DC charges to 74%, each charge was around 50 minutes.
If the reported 80kW capability is confirmed, and those 50kW CCS chargers were upgraded, they would have saved another 40 mins.

Maybe Bjorn has one of the older 90Ds that start tapering @25% and work their way down steadily.
In those cars it's makes sense to supercharge more often at lower SOC.

Bjorn plans to do his 175kW CCS test today.

Old diesel

liamog wrote: »

Yep two DC charges to 74%, each charge was around 50 minutes.
If the reported 80kW capability is confirmed, and those 50kW CCS chargers were upgraded, they would have saved another 40 mins.

Maybe Bjorn has one of the older 90Ds that start tapering @25% and work their way down steadily.
In those cars it's makes sense to supercharge more often at lower SOC.

Bjorn plans to do his 175kW CCS test today.

What was the start of charge SOCs to get 74 percent in 50 mins?????.

I suspect the big decision on long Kona trips is whether you do more but shorter rapids (where charger availability allows).

Or fewer but longer stops.

On a 450 mile trip - in theory it could be done on one stop.

But with the tapering of charge as you get to very high SOCs - it might be faster to do 2 stops with the 2nd one been a relatively short one.

1st stop at around 180 to 200 miles and a 2nd stop at 320 to 350 miles im thinking.

liamog

If you're driving a Kona Electric, plan to charge to 74% which will get you back to 300km.

I'd be planning a long journey like this.

Start: 100%
Charge: 5% - 75%
You'll be charging with around 20km of range left.
@80kW charging, the charge should take 34 mins.

Arrive at your destination with 5% gives 660km range, for every extra fast charge add 280km.
That's actually slightly worse efficiency than Bjorn so has a small cushion.

Shefwedfan

liamog wrote: »

At the end of the race, the Kona won by about 30s.
Basically calling it as a draw for 971km, the route only had 50kW CCS chargers.

64kWh Kona using 50kW CCS finished a 940km in the same time as a Model X P90D using Tesla Superchargers.

The Tesla did 5 supercharger stops, the Kona 2 CCS.
Finished with 14% (Tesla) and 10% (Kona)

The Tesla Brigade won't like that


Could have been staged.



Still impressive from Kona. Very impressive. What it does show is you could go from Belfast to Cork and back on 2 charges


The old Dublin to Cork question suddenly is no longer a valid question.



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liamog

They'll be saying this next

I need a car that can drive from Dublin to Cork and back, and then back again in case I forget my wallet. #dieselForLife

Water John

Doubt if many would drive an EV to regularly go as low as 5%. Certainly feel I would always be charging up once I got down to 15/20%.
Great to see the 64Kwh mainstream cars coming to market. Indeed the Cork to Dublin run, that I always wanted an EV to achieve without recharge, has now arrived.

liamog

Water John wrote: »

Doubt if many would drive an EV to regularly go as low as 5%. Certainly feel I would always be charging up once I got down to 15/20%.
Great to see the 64Kwh mainstream cars coming to market. Indeed the Cork to Dublin run, that I always wanted an EV to achieve without recharge, has now arrived.

It's an interesting one, I'd be mad to drive down to 5% in the e-UP. I'd end up with 0.93kWh and 5km of range. In a Kona I'd be down to 3.2kWh and 20km of range. People need to start thinking of driving down to certain range rather than percentage.

Old diesel

liamog wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

Doubt if many would drive an EV to regularly go as low as 5%. Certainly feel I would always be charging up once I got down to 15/20%.
Great to see the 64Kwh mainstream cars coming to market. Indeed the Cork to Dublin run, that I always wanted an EV to achieve without recharge, has now arrived.

It's an interesting one, I'd be mad to drive down to 5% in the e-UP. I'd end up with 0.93kWh and 5km of range. In a Kona I'd be down to 3.2kWh and 20km of range. People need to start thinking of driving down to certain range rather than percentage.

Youd need strong reliable infrastructure to plan for 20 kms left imo.

liamog

Old diesel wrote: »

Youd need strong reliable infrastructure to plan for 20 kms left imo.

Realistically I'd still be using my charge at the rapid before the one you need policy. But I'd still plan the one I need based on 20km of remaining range. That gives you enough to find a slow charger in the case of disaster.

FriendsEV

How efficient is the Kona?

Bjorn says its more efficient than the Tesla Model 3

Must not be much between the Kona and Ioniq then?

If that's legit then the 39kWh Kona might be a clever buy makes if it's 5k less?

Coefficient drag must not be that important then, as Kona has the same drag as a Leaf and way higher than Ioniq or Model 3

ELM327

FriendsEV wrote: »

How efficient is the Kona?

Bjorn says its more efficient than the Tesla Model 3

Must not be much between the Kona and Ioniq then?

If that's legit then the 39kWh Kona might be a clever buy makes if it's 5k less?

Coefficient drag must not be that important then, as Kona has the same drag as a Leaf and way higher than Ioniq or Model 3

The "Secret" of the hyundai efficiency was expected to be the cd coefficient, but it's actually the drivetrain too.

thelikelylad

So Bjørn tested the Kona on a 175kW charger.

70kW max up to 55%
58kW at 55%
37kW at 73%
25kW at 77%

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

How efficient is the Kona?

Bjorn says its more efficient than the Tesla Model 3

Must not be much between the Kona and Ioniq then?

If that's legit then the 39kWh Kona might be a clever buy makes if it's 5k less?

Coefficient drag must not be that important then, as Kona has the same drag as a Leaf and way higher than Ioniq or Model 3

I have a feeling that Hyundai have gone the way of Tesla and the 39kWh Kona will be a rare beast :P


Everything I see is in regards to the 64kWh model.

ELM327

thelikelylad wrote: »

So Bjørn tested the Kona on a 175kW charger.

70kW max up to 55%
58kW at 55%
37kW at 73%
25kW at 77%

That's... pretty crap to be honest. (coming from an Ioniq that maintains 70kW up to 77% SOC - assuming it is connected to a capable charger)
Is there a link to a video?

thelikelylad

ELM327 wrote: »

That's... pretty crap to be honest. (coming from an Ioniq that maintains 70kW up to 77% SOC - assuming it is connected to a capable charger)
Is there a link to a video?

He posted on fb about it. Video not uploaded yet.

https://www.facebook.com/Teslabjorn/posts/871056589754137

ELM327

thelikelylad wrote: »

He posted on fb about it. Video not uploaded yet.

https://www.facebook.com/Teslabjorn/posts/871056589754137

Some interesting comments on that link, theorising that CCS is limited to 80kW by a 200a limit at the charger.
I don't think that could be true.. but if it was, it means the likes of the i-pace can't charge at 100kW. Not without an 800+volt battery :eek:

I think what's more likely here is one of two things:
Either:
-Charger software needs updating
-Hyundai haven't been able to put the high C rates into this car, like they did for the IOniq, due to higher internal pack resistance.

unkel

Those charging stats are terrible. Hopefully it was the charger not the car that slowed things down. We won't know until we see more reports

ELM327 wrote: »

The "Secret" of the hyundai efficiency was expected to be the cd coefficient, but it's actually the drivetrain too.

Everyone who has ever driven Ioniq with zero regen on will have noticed the ridiculously long time the car can coast while barely slowing down. So not the cd, not the drivetrain, it's just pure magic

I presume Kona is the same

Shefwedfan

thelikelylad wrote: »

So Bjørn tested the Kona on a 175kW charger.

70kW max up to 55%
58kW at 55%
37kW at 73%
25kW at 77%

So to me that makes no sense.....

Let me put it this way, how long on fast charger to fill her up?

grogi

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So to me that makes no sense.....

Let me put it this way, how long on fast charger to fill her up?

35kWh (55%) at 70kW -> 30 mins
11.5kWh (18%) at 55kW -> 13 mins
2.5kWh (4%) at 37kW -> 4 mins
15kWh (23%) at 25kW -> 35 mins

---

Total: 64 kWh -> ~85 mins.