Hyundai Kona EV pre orders open

grogi

ELM327 wrote: »

That's... pretty crap to be honest. (coming from an Ioniq that maintains 70kW up to 77% SOC - assuming it is connected to a capable charger)
Is there a link to a video?

Don't forget that 77% SOC in Ioniq is around 35% SOC in 64kWh Kona...

grogi

ELM327 wrote: »

Some interesting comments on that link, theorising that CCS is limited to 80kW by a 200a limit at the charger.
I don't think that could be true.. but if it was, it means the likes of the i-pace can't charge at 100kW. Not without an 800+volt battery :eek:

There is nothing preventing the ECU from rearranging the cells during the charging with a few relays. 64 kWh battery might be 200Ah@320V or 67Ah@960V...

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

-Hyundai haven't been able to put the high C rates into this car, like they did for the IOniq, due to higher internal pack resistance.

According to this link it has a max of 70 Kw on DC charge rate ?

https://ev-database.uk/car/1126/Hyundai-Kona-Electric-64-kWh

If it has 67 Kwh and 64 Kwh usable at 356 volts that would make it about 190 AH and a 70 Kw charge at 356 volts would be about 197 Amps so that makes it just over 1 C charge.

Question is what are the cells rated for ? 197 amps could be more than their rated for or could be exactly who knows.

BMW charge the 94 Ah at a bit higher C rate than recommended probably because the pack is AC cooled.

Is the Kona battery AC or Fan cooled ? Fan cooling could be a limitation or the cells themselves or both.

Interesting to see the Leaf 60 Testing at 105 Kw , that would give it a good advantage over the Kona. Nissan have learned....... Finally !

ELM327

grogi wrote: »

Don't forget that 77% SOC in Ioniq is around 35% SOC in 64kWh Kona...

Yes but the two are not equal. Take a leaf 24 and a leaf 30, 60% of the leaf 24 is like what 40% of the leaf 30, but the leaf 30 is charging faster.

grogi wrote: »

There is nothing preventing the ECU from rearranging the cells during the charging with a few relays. 64 kWh battery might be 200Ah@320V or 67Ah@960V...

Don't know enough myself to agree or contradict the above unfortunately

Deleted User wrote: »

According to this link it has a max of 70 Kw on DC charge rate ?

https://ev-database.uk/car/1126/Hyundai-Kona-Electric-64-kWh

If it has 67 Kwh and 64 Kwh usable at 356 volts that would make it about 190 AH and a 70 Kw charge at 356 volts would be about 197 Amps so that makes it just over 1 C charge.

Question is what are the cells rated for ? 197 amps could be more than their rated for or could be exactly who knows.

BMW charge the 94 Ah at a bit higher C rate than recommended probably because the pack is AC cooled.

Is the Kona battery AC or Fan cooled ? Fan cooling could be a limitation or the cells themselves or both.

Interesting to see the Leaf 60 Testing at 105 Kw , that would give it a good advantage over the Kona. Nissan have learned....... Finally !

It's liquid cooled.
~1.1C at best, coming from over 2C in the Ioniq is a step down. I feel I made a big enough deal about the step down which was the L40 that I need to complain about this. But it's so hard to complain against a real world regular priced EV with LKAS and ~450km real range :P

ewj1978

Bjorn says in one of his review vids it's liquid cooled...

Anywho more reviews out. Top Gear gives it 9/10!! While also saying it'll be sub £30k.
https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/hyundai/kona/150kw-premium-64kwh-5dr-auto/first-drive

Old diesel

Deleted User wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

-Hyundai haven't been able to put the high C rates into this car, like they did for the IOniq, due to higher internal pack resistance.

According to this link it has a max of 70 Kw on DC charge rate ?

https://ev-database.uk/car/1126/Hyundai-Kona-Electric-64-kWh

If it has 67 Kwh and 64 Kwh usable at 356 volts that would make it about 190 AH and a 70 Kw charge at 356 volts would be about 197 Amps so that makes it just over 1 C charge.

Question is what are the cells rated for ? 197 amps could be more than their rated for or could be exactly who knows.

BMW charge the 94 Ah at a bit higher C rate than recommended probably because the pack is AC cooled.

Is the Kona battery AC or Fan cooled ? Fan cooling could be a limitation or the cells themselves or both.

Interesting to see the Leaf 60 Testing at 105 Kw , that would give it a good advantage over the Kona. Nissan have learned....... Finally !

Important to remember that we are comparing a production Kona to a pre production Leaf.

The Leaf was showing what is possible with charger technology.

However for various reasons like battery durability - the Leaf could be restricted to a similar speed as Kona.

We also dont know how long the Leaf was/is able to sustain the 102 kw for.

The point was to show that 102 kw was possible on the latest Chademo set up.

Sustaining that in real world with 300 mile plus trips at 75 mph in ambient temps of 24 degrees and above is a whole different ballgame.

LG Chem may not care about the car doing 102 kw in prototype form.

They may have a somewhat different view of standing over 102 kw in daily use when LG Chem are on the hook for warranty etc

Shefwedfan

grogi wrote: »

35kWh (55%) at 70kW -> 30 mins
11.5kWh (18%) at 55kW -> 13 mins
2.5kWh (4%) at 37kW -> 4 mins
15kWh (23%) at 25kW -> 35 mins

---

Total: 64 kWh -> ~85 mins.

So take my example of long distance driving, a 50 min stop for food/etc would give a nice little boost.....


I don't see this as an issue

ewj1978

My example of East cork -belfast . 400km one stop in lusk after 3hours of driving. So same as
my diesel.
Can't wait for this car.
Also doing the math you'd have one(new) in from the UK for €33k if demand was too high here.

FriendsEV

thelikelylad wrote: »

So Bjørn tested the Kona on a 175kW charger.

70kW max up to 55%
58kW at 55%
37kW at 73%
25kW at 77%

I was right sadly

Cells are old tech similar to Chevy Bolt was the rumour, not great for fast charging, but lots of cycles and longevity

Was to be expected

Sure even the most expensive Evs don't go above 100kW, Rimac hypercar for a few million bucks can barely get 200kW

Still a great car, 70kW and liquid cooling is still great for the price.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

According to this link it has a max of 70 Kw on DC charge rate ?

https://ev-database.uk/car/1126/Hyundai-Kona-Electric-64-kWh

Specifications with an * are estimates.

Fastcharge Power * 70 kW DC


It's an "estimate" as they havent tested it yet.
Hence why all the furore about Bjorn's test

ELM327

ewj1978 wrote: »

My example of East cork -belfast . 400km one stop in lusk after 3hours of driving. So same as
my diesel.
Can't wait for this car.
Also doing the math you'd have one(new) in from the UK for €33k if demand was too high here.

You could do that trip without stopping in the 64kWh version. :eek:

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

Important to remember that we are comparing a production Kona to a pre production Leaf.

The Leaf was showing what is possible with charger technology.

However for various reasons like battery durability - the Leaf could be restricted to a similar speed as Kona.

We also dont know how long the Leaf was/is able to sustain the 102 kw for.

The point was to show that 102 kw was possible on the latest Chademo set up.

Sustaining that in real world with 300 mile plus trips at 75 mph in ambient temps of 24 degrees and above is a whole different ballgame.

LG Chem may not care about the car doing 102 kw in prototype form.

They may have a somewhat different view of standing over 102 kw in daily use when LG Chem are on the hook for warranty etc

That was 102 Kw at 32 % charge which is pretty amazing in fairness. If AC cooled there's no reason to suggest it will not charge at this rate all day long.

If the battery had no heating then that will slow down cold battery charging but I expect if LG are calling the shots then it will be heated also under certain conditions, probably when plugged into the mains only.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

That was 102 Kw at 32 % charge which is pretty amazing in fairness. If AC cooled there's no reason to suggest it will not charge at this rate all day long.

If the battery had no heating then that will slow down cold battery charging but I expect if LG are calling the shots then it will be heated also under certain conditions, probably when plugged into the mains only.

The issue is not "can the battery accept this charge". There are batteries accepting 20C rates of charge today.


The issue is can it sustain it without degradation, and can Nissan get the battery supplier to agree to that spec.

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So take my example of long distance driving, a 50 min stop for food/etc would give a nice little boost.....


I don't see this as an issue

Exactly a 30 min charge would give about 200km of range, 50 min nearly 300km of range

Future is here finally

Think I will be dropping the Tesla

Wife wants a Tesla, not into Hyundai, but Hyundai is a better buy and reliable with a great warranty

Don't know what forum I read it, trying to find but acceleration is good too, 0-100 6.9secs tested

FriendsEV

ELM327 wrote: »

You could do that trip without stopping in the 64kWh version. :eek:

I want to see a test for Ioniq

See the efficiency difference, if any

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

I was right sadly

Cells are old tech similar to Chevy Bolt was the rumour, not great for fast charging, but lots of cycles and longevity

Was to be expected

Sure even the most expensive Evs don't go above 100kW, Rimac hypercar for a few million bucks can barely get 200kW

Still a great car, 70kW and liquid cooling is still great for the price.

Its a mid ranged priced Compact Crossover.....


I was expecting that a decent charge would take circa 50 mins.....


Let put it this way, it current main competition is the Leaf 2....not much competition really....


I do think this forum likes to pick holes....the majority of people looking at this car will charge at home 99% of the time and maybe once a year might need to use a fast charger. I have my car 18 months now I think and I have no bloody idea how quick/slow or what it does charging. I know it takes about 20 mins and I am ready to hit the road :P


I do say 99% of the time at home, please note some people will use the fast chargers as they are free.....if they had to pay they wouldn't use

JohnnyJohnJohns

Not looking forward to the new EV drivers on a fast charger for an hour while leafs pile up behind them - that alone will drive people to bigger battery cars

Shefwedfan

JohnnyJohnJohns wrote: »

Not looking forward to the new EV drivers on a fast charger for an hour while leafs pile up behind them - that alone will drive people to bigger battery cars

Just drive home and plug it in over night......


With bigger batteries and longer charge times the system will need to introduce a set period of charge time before you need to move on or get a fine


An old heap of s**t Leaf 2 will show up and close the place down for the day trying to recharge it energizer batteries :P:P:P:P:P

Old diesel

ELM327 wrote: »

ewj1978 wrote: »

My example of East cork -belfast . 400km one stop in lusk after 3hours of driving. So same as
my diesel.
Can't wait for this car.
Also doing the math you'd have one(new) in from the UK for €33k if demand was too high here.

You could do that trip without stopping in the 64kWh version. :eek:

The beauty of this car is that you can charge during a stop on the way up.

Charge at nearest rapid charger to destination for 50 mins.

No destination charging required.

It's not like a Leaf 40 where you would have to consider that a late evening rapid could hurt you with residual heat the day after - so youd need a destination charger

FriendsEV

ELM327 wrote: »

The "Secret" of the hyundai efficiency was expected to be the cd coefficient, but it's actually the drivetrain too.

Amazing if true

Many said it was the cd

Electric drivetrains couldn't get more efficient etc

I still believe they will get more efficient , sub 10kWh/100km will be the norm when the switch over is complete in 10 years

ELM327

FriendsEV wrote: »

I want to see a test for Ioniq

See the efficiency difference, if any

Ioniq should be slightly more efficient as the Kona has a worse CD even if they use the same drivetrain


Amazing when a box on stilts has a better efficiency than the leaf

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Its a mid ranged priced Compact Crossover.....


I was expecting that a decent charge would take circa 50 mins.....


Let put it this way, it current main competition is the Leaf 2....not much competition really....


I do think this forum likes to pick holes....the majority of people looking at this car will charge at home 99% of the time and maybe once a year might need to use a fast charger. I have my car 18 months now I think and I have no bloody idea how quick/slow or what it does charging. I know it takes about 20 mins and I am ready to hit the road :P


I do say 99% of the time at home, please note some people will use the fast chargers as they are free.....if they had to pay they wouldn't use

In my case even for my longest journey that's spot on

Limerick - Dublin is the furthest I drive, 420km round trip

I would only need a 15min charge to do it, drive slow and might even do it on one stop

Round Cable

ELM327 wrote: »

Ioniq should be slightly more efficient as the Kona has a worse CD even if they use the same drivetrain


Amazing when a box on stilts has a better efficiency than the leaf

The total aerodynamic performance is calculated as the Cd x Frontal Area the Car

The frontal area doesn't seem to be nearly as well documented as Cd, this is impacted substantially by the height of the car.

The Leaf 2 looks to be a considerably larger car for passengers and cargo compared to the Kona.

Also, it will be interesting to see the charge rates for the Kia Niro as it will apparently use SK Innovation cells rather than LG Chem in the case of the Kona.

PushEVs wrote:

The South Korean newspaper etnews reports that while the Hyundai Kona Electric will get NCM 622 battery cells from LG Chem, the Kia Niro EV will get NCM 811 battery cells from SK innovation. While the NCM 622 cells have higher power density, the NCM 811 battery cells have higher energy density and lower cost.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Ioniq should be slightly more efficient as the Kona has a worse CD even if they use the same drivetrain


Amazing when a box on stilts has a better efficiency than the leaf

With all the data Nissan should have collected from the different version of the Leaf you would expect them to be miles ahead of the competition....instead they are lagging behind.....

Old diesel

If part of the Hyundai advantage is drivetrain.

Shouldnt we see an improvement in efficiency with Leaf 60 vs the 40?????.

Re Nissan data - the problem appears to be that Nissan have used the data to figure out that most Leafs only do within a certain mileage a day.

Relying too much on historical data rather then anticipating how a bigger battery changes how you use the car - if no rapidgate issues.

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

Ioniq should be slightly more efficient as the Kona has a worse CD even if they use the same drivetrain


Amazing when a box on stilts has a better efficiency than the leaf

Even more amazing to me is how a car described as 'a box on wheels' could be so desirable to so many!! Personally don't understand the attraction to this type of car but then again there are many thinks in life I have difficulty understanding!!!

liamog

The Kia Soul is a box on wheels. The Kona Electric looks like a tall Focus Hatchback to me.

ELM327

It looks more like someone took a tucson and flattened only the "car" part while leaving the wheels and arches the same.

unkel

creedp wrote: »

Even more amazing to me is how a car described as 'a box on wheels' could be so desirable to so many!! Personally don't understand the attraction to this type of car

Same here. But people have gone mad for the (small) crossovers ever since the original Qashqai came out over a decade ago. Remember the waiting lists? And remember that early ones were sold second hand for more than the listed new price?

And before that nearly every family seemed to want a 7-seater even if they only had a couple of kids!

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

creedp wrote: »

Even more amazing to me is how a car described as 'a box on wheels' could be so desirable to so many!! Personally don't understand the attraction to this type of car

Same here. But people have gone mad for the (small) crossovers ever since the original Qashqai came out over a decade ago. Remember the waiting lists? And remember that early ones were sold second hand for more than the listed new price?

And before that nearly every family seemed to want a 7-seater even if they only had a couple of kids!

Wonder will EVs get so trendy that people will buy a Kona or L60 even though they don't need a car????. (But it looks good to be seen in an EV)

creedp

unkel wrote: »

Same here. But people have gone mad for the (small) crossovers ever since the original Qashqai came out over a decade ago. Remember the waiting lists? And remember that early ones were sold second hand for more than the listed new price?

And before that nearly every family seemed to want a 7-seater even if they only had a couple of kids!

Agree the Qashqai was the original of the species but at least was reasonably roomy inside .. these newer generation even smaller crossovers (whatever that actually means) are even less practical and provide no advantage to the equivalent sized car except of course for the perceived cooler image attached to driving an elevated hatchback with plastic mudguards around an urban setting - the Chelsea tractor becomes the Chelsea ride-on!!

Give me a 39kwh Ionig any day!!

ELM327

creedp wrote: »

Agree the Qashqai was the original of the species but at least was reasonably roomy inside .. these newer generation even smaller crossovers (whatever that actually means) are even less practical and provide no advantage to the equivalent sized car except of course for the perceived cooler image attached to driving an elevated hatchback with plastic mudguards around an urban setting - the Chelsea tractor becomes the Chelsea ride-on!!

Give me a 39kwh Ionig any day!!

Bjorn race = 39kWh Ioniq versus 64kWh Kona over 1000km.
Assuming the Ioniq can keep its drivetrain and charging curve it would win by a mile with a 39kWh battery

thelikelylad

Bjørn's video is up

Starting SOC 10%

10-55% ~27mins
10-73% ~40mins
10-80% ~50mins
10-100% 1hour and 42mins

40mins for ~250km EPA rated range.

Shefwedfan

creedp wrote: »

Agree the Qashqai was the original of the species but at least was reasonably roomy inside .. these newer generation even smaller crossovers (whatever that actually means) are even less practical and provide no advantage to the equivalent sized car except of course for the perceived cooler image attached to driving an elevated hatchback with plastic mudguards around an urban setting - the Chelsea tractor becomes the Chelsea ride-on!!

Give me a 39kwh Ionig any day!!

The one massive advantage of the Qashqai type vehicle over a Golf is the height. I have 3 kids and getting them in & out of back seats can be a lot easier with that little bit of height.....


Anyone buying without kids are just stupid or lack imagination......

Silent Running

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The one massive advantage of the Qashqai type vehicle over a Golf is the height. I have 3 kids and getting them in & out of back seats can be a lot easier with that little bit of height.....


Anyone buying without kids are just stupid or lack imagination......

That's a bit harsh. The higher driving position makes it easier to get in and out of for those with reduced mobility. With any luck, you'll get old some day.

grogi

Silent Running wrote: »

That's a bit harsh. The higher driving position makes it easier to get in and out of for those with reduced mobility. With any luck, you'll get old some day.

The New Quashqai: for grounded by kids and old (physically or mentally). Not really sure if that's a great advertising phrase...

Shefwedfan

Silent Running wrote: »

That's a bit harsh. The higher driving position makes it easier to get in and out of for those with reduced mobility. With any luck, you'll get old some day.

Of course its a bit harsh....I wasn't been serious


My parents bought a Qashqai for the exact reason you described.....they have actually parked it up now and use a Leaf 1 as the high seating position they find just as good....

I will clarify:

Anyone buying without kids or are old are just stupid or lack imagination..

Old diesel

I take it that the active battery cooling on Kona works while driving?????.

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

I take it that the active battery cooling on Kona works while driving?????.

I would imagine it would or there's no point having it.

Old diesel

Deleted User wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

I take it that the active battery cooling on Kona works while driving?????.

I would imagine it would or there's no point having it.

Agreed.

Just a bit take aback by how the temp rose during the 70 kw charging

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

Agreed.

Just a bit take aback by how the temp rose during the 70 kw charging

Where does it show this ?

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

The issue is not "can the battery accept this charge". There are batteries accepting 20C rates of charge today.


The issue is can it sustain it without degradation, and can Nissan get the battery supplier to agree to that spec.

You misunderstood what I was saying, when I said if it can take it I meant whether it was designed for the C rates being dumped into it.

There are batteries that can take high C rated but they're mainly RC LiPo !

Nissan will be feeding the battery exactly what LG tell them because they have to provide warranty should anything go wrong.

ewj1978

thelikelylad wrote: »

Bjørn's video is up

Starting SOC 10%

10-55% ~27mins
10-73% ~40mins
10-80% ~50mins
10-100% 1hour and 42mins

40mins for ~250km EPA rated range.

Not sure where you got that or am I misunderstanding?

35 mins for 320km(200mile) range. Thats mad ted.
I know its Bjorn driving and all but 370km range at 75% battery and 497km at 100%.
497!!! I'm drooling.
12.8kwh/100km.

12.8 Kwh/100 Kms wait until the Winter and 120 Km/h on the motorway !

Shefwedfan

Old diesel wrote: »

I take it that the active battery cooling on Kona works while driving?????.

The video the other day showed it off but I’m sure he said he could turn it on or something along those lines

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The video the other day showed it off but I’m sure he said he could turn it on or something along those lines

I would seriously doubt the battery cooling can be turned on and off via the driver. That would be mad really.

Old diesel

Deleted User wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

Agreed.

Just a bit take aback by how the temp rose during the 70 kw charging

Where does it show this ?

In the video on page 79 of this thread

Old diesel

Apologies meant to say page 69 not 79

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

Apologies meant to say page 69 not 79

Oh, if you're thinking that battery bar on the right is battery temp, it's not, it's showing battery charge.

thelikelylad

ewj1978 wrote: »

Not sure where you got that or am I misunderstanding?

35 mins for 320km(200mile) range. Thats mad ted.
I know its Bjorn driving and all but 370km range at 75% battery and 497km at 100%.
497!!! I'm drooling.
12.8kwh/100km.

No official EPA rating yet but basing it off Hyundai quoting 250mi/400km EPA estimate at the US press launch. 16kWh/100km.