Whole food plant based MD

The Undecided One

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Just eat the healthy diet while on the drugs, if your numbers are good you can then talk toa doctor about reducing your medication if they see fit. Don't do a steve jobs to yourself.

Exactly, stay on the middle of the road, take your medicine and continue your diet.

When your levels are in the 'normal' range discuss with your GP coming off the drugs, even for a few weeks/months and continue monitoring your cholesterol levels.

This should satisfy both you and your doctor, you get to go off the meds, he gets to monitor you and if needed put you back on the meds.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Then maybe you need to actually spend some time researching what he says instead of forming an opinion on a quick google search .. Did you check his contribution on the What the health movie ?

I haven't formed an opinion on him yet. I just said his involvement in that film raises alarm bells for me, that is all.

jigglypuffstuff

weisses wrote: »

Then in return please spare me the utter nonsense that a proper plant based diet lacks nutrition ....

Yes sorry I forgot all about the b12 injections and manufactured omega 3 supplements... and the fact that humans are by nature omnivore.. nonsense no...fact yes

But feel free to ignore biology in favour of your personal subjective biases.... while you're at it cherry pick all the documentaries and misrepresent the body of knowledge collected to date.. sway your argument to one side rather then undertake a critical analysis because it clashes with your opinion of right and wrong...go right ahead

Fwiw this is all coming from a person who eats substantially more plants than meat/fish daily..and some days abstain completely...but the facts are the facts, and unlike you I won't pretend the are something they're not

Day Lewin

O.P. --
-- Why is it so important to get a doctor's "Green light" on stopping the medications?
Nobody is actually FORCING you to take them: you could just stop. You could choose to just stay with the healthy diet you propose and avoid medicines for the time being.
Of course, if you then have cardiac problems, - or if you feel fine for six months or a year - you could then go back to a doctor, cardiologist, or dietician and get their opinion, post-experiment.
On the other hand, if you get a heart attack and drop dead, who will you complain to then?
Not being flippant: just asking for a pragmatic assessment.

jigglypuffstuff

weisses wrote: »

Maybe read the op again ... And leave your bias out of it

You can give an objective medical opinion as a proffesional

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466941/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/the-right-plant-based-diet-for-you

http://nutritionstudies.org/top-10-plant-based-research-and-news-stories-2016/

Good confirmation bias...good boy... now go find just as much cherry picked information on the benefits of animal proteins...then after a critical analysis come to the conclusion that an omnivorous diet primarily of plants featuring some selective animal sources is the most beneficial one.... after that you can spin your little moral spider web but it doesn't change s thing regards the former

Of course there's always supplements.. but then again....big pharma are pure evil aren't they???

weisses

pone2012 wrote: »

Yes sorry I forgot all about the b12 injections and manufactured omega 3 supplements... and the fact that humans are by nature omnivore.. nonsense no...fact yes

I am not disputing people can eat meat

I am disputing the nonsensical claim that a proper plant based diet lack nutrition ... .I even put in a few links to make it easier for you to understand

pone2012 wrote: »

But feel free to ignore biology in favour of your personal subjective biases.... while you're at it cherry pick all the documentaries and misrepresent the body of knowledge collected to date.. sway your argument to one side rather then undertake a critical analysis because it clashes with your opinion of right and wrong...go right ahead

Can you point me to where I did all these things you claim above ?

pone2012 wrote: »

Fwiw this is all coming from a person who eats substantially more plants than meat/fish daily..and some days abstain completely...but the facts are the facts, and unlike you I won't pretend the are something they're not

What are the facts ? ...Maybe back up your position with proper evidence that a proper plant based diet lacks nutrition ..... Otherwise its just another opinion

weisses

pone2012 wrote: »

Good confirmation bias...good boy... now go find just as much cherry picked information on the benefits of animal proteins...then after a critical analysis come to the conclusion that an omnivorous diet primarily of plants featuring some selective animal sources is the most beneficial one.... after that you can spin your little moral spider web but it doesn't change s thing regards the former

Of course there's always supplements.. but then again....big pharma are pure evil aren't they???

Yeah ...those links I posted are biased ....:rolleyes:

I dont need to find research regarding omnivores ... I just pointed out that your claim in regards to plant based diets is nonsensical

Now can you point me in the direction of research that states a proper plant based diet lacks nutrition .... Thanks

jigglypuffstuff

weisses wrote: »

Yeah ...those links I posted are biased ....:rolleyes:

I dont need to find research regarding omnivores ... I just pointed out that your claim in regards to plant based diets is nonsensical

Now can you point me in the direction of research that states a proper plant based diet lacks nutrition .... Thanks

Actually it isn't....the very fact vegans have to be monitored by for nutrients to make sure they are not lacking is indicative of that

Furthermore you've get to provide me a non fortified non medically administered form of b12 that can keep one from falling into deficiency..or vitamin D for that matter

Also while we're at it ...I'd also like to see how aware you are of the codependency of nutrients and the relationship between high fibre diets and nutrient absorption... you'll need to factor that into account too given a lot of vegan diets are far too high in fibre

Sounds like you need to take an awful lot of care to ensure survival... and that is with supplements and fortified foods

Now if you want to support your argument I'll give you the way...go find me a vegan diet that is 100% free of supplements and fortified foods.. and manages to satisfy all nutritional needs

There's a Cron o meter online to do your calculations..I'll be waiting to concede when you manage to do it ( and pigs begin to fly)

Tar.Aldarion

pone2012 wrote: »

Actually it isn't....the very fact vegans have to be monitored by for nutrients to make sure they are not lacking is indicative of that

Furthermore you've get to provide me a non fortified non medically administered form of b12 that can keep one from falling into deficiency..or vitamin D for that matter

Also while we're at it ...I'd also like to see how aware you are of the codependency of nutrients and the relationship between high fibre diets and nutrient absorption... you'll need to factor that into account too given a lot of vegan diets are far too high in fibre

Sounds like you need to take an awful lot of care to ensure survival... and that is with supplements and fortified foods

Now if you want to support your argument I'll give you the way...go find me a vegan diet that is 100% free of supplements and fortified foods.. and manages to satisfy all nutritional needs

There's a Cron o meter online to do your calculations..I'll be waiting to concede when you manage to do it ( and pigs begin to fly)

Not sure of what your appeal to nature is? That supplements are evil? Meat is supplemented with B12 on a wide scale. Most people are vitamin D deficient (70% of the EU and need supplements). People over 50 are recommended to supplement B12 as a lot of them can no longer absorb enough b12 no matter what they eat.

Since every single health organisation says vegan diets are healthy I think that says enough.

jigglypuffstuff

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Not sure of what your appeal to nature is? That supplements are evil? Meat is supplemented with B12 on a wide scale. Most people are vitamin D deficient (70% of the EU and need supplements). People over 50 are recommended to supplement B12 as a lot of them can no longer absorb enough b12 no matter what they eat.

Since every single health organisation says vegan diets are healthy I think that says enough.

It's actually contextually bound to this thread..I usually eat 2 vegan meals out of 3 per day ... and no dairy so I drink almond milk too.. no problem here

Person in question was arguing big pharma nonsense... clearly in the position that "nature" would sort it out ( the OP posited a plant based diet..and said individual implied he agreed medicine was a bad idea)

I have pointed out that nature alone cannot even sort out a simple vegan diet.. let alone what could be a congenitally predisposed issue

A fair conclusion I would argue.

Tar.Aldarion

Ah I see, apologies. Yes, concluding nature is right and the healthiest thing is completely incorrect and that idea has to die. Natural does not mean good. There are legitimate reasons somebody needs medication that no diet can hope to cure. Unfortunately people can be so against medicaation that they end up hurting themselves.

weisses

pone2012 wrote: »

It's actually contextually bound to this thread..I usually eat 2 vegan meals out of 3 per day ... and no dairy so I drink almond milk too.. no problem here

Person in question was arguing big pharma nonsense... clearly in the position that "nature" would sort it out ( the OP posited a plant based diet..and said individual implied he agreed medicine was a bad idea)

I have pointed out that nature alone cannot even sort out a simple vegan diet.. let alone what could be a congenitally predisposed issue

A fair conclusion I would argue.

No I was arguing Doctors are there to prescribe drugs ... which is what big pharma wants ...

https://www.google.ie/search?q=doctors+incentives+big+pharma&rlz=1C1CHBF_enIE751IE751&oq=doctors+incentives+big+pharma&aqs=chrome..69i57.10501j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Plus I adressed the nonsense in you claiming a healthy plant based diet lacks nutrition ...

Maybe do a bit less assuming and produce some facts

Can you point out where I stated medicine was a bad idea ?

weisses

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Ah I see, apologies. Yes, concluding nature is right and the healthiest thing is completely incorrect and that idea has to die. Natural does not mean good. There are legitimate reasons somebody needs medication that no diet can hope to cure. Unfortunately people can be so against medicaation that they end up hurting themselves.

Do you agree a proper diet can lower your Cholesterol ?

Or can help with type 2 diabetes ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466941/

Why would it so bad for the OP to try (with the help of a GP) to see if both conditions can be brought under control with a proper plant based diet ?

According to the other poster that seems to be nonsesical ... which I disagree with see below

pone2012 wrote: »

Read again the OP...the poster wants a "yes " person to agree with them and their perception of what is right..not an objective medical professionals opinion...

No where is the poster looking for a "yes" person .. Only a GP who could help with this reasonable request

the poster seems to believe that an objective medical professional could not advise or help getting healthier by diet

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Do you agree a proper diet can lower your Cholesterol ?

Or can help with type 2 diabetes ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466941/

Why would it so bad for the OP to try (with the help of a GP) to see if both conditions can be brought under control with a proper plant based diet ?

According to the other poster that seems to be nonsesical ... which I disagree with see below



No where is the poster looking for a "yes" person .. Only a GP who could help with this reasonable request

the poster seems to believe that an objective medical professional could not advise or help getting healthier by diet

In fairness the OP said that the doctor said there was no way his cholesterol dropped by that much due to the change in diet not that the OP's diet couldn't reduce cholesterol.

I'm assuming the doctor wants the cholesterol as low as possible due to family history and diet might at best lead to a 20% reduction (from a quick google search).

jigglypuffstuff

weisses wrote: »

Do you agree a proper diet can lower your Cholesterol ?

Or can help with type 2 diabetes ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466941/

Why would it so bad for the OP to try (with the help of a GP) to see if both conditions can be brought under control with a proper plant based diet ?

According to the other poster that seems to be nonsesical ... which I disagree with see below



No where is the poster looking for a "yes" person .. Only a GP who could help with this reasonable request

the poster seems to believe that an objective medical professional could not advise or help getting healthier by diet

I never once said it couldn't help ...I said it could be congenitally predisposed...in which case medicine is required......do continue to misrepresent me

What is wrong is that it could be medically dangerous.. you are not in a position to state otherwise..the GP of said patient is

Yes and implied in that statement is that the poster believes diet is the answer... which if congenitally predisposed it isn't.

Furthermore they stated they want someone "on board" meaning someone who agrees with them...which is effectively a yes person...the OP would have been off the medicine had their GP seen it fit

Do continue please....

weisses

pone2012 wrote: »

I never once said it couldn't help ...I said it could be congenitally predisposed...in which case medicine is required......do continue to misrepresent me

Well it kinda started with the nonsense in your post below

pone2012 wrote: »

I'm well aware of the pitfalls of nutritional understanding in medical schools

But read OPs post..we are talking about medicine...and abstaining from in favour of a diet that lacks nutritionally... which as pointed out is not a good idea

Doctor's are more than qualified to advise in that case..we are talking about actual medicine here Incase you missed that?

pone2012 wrote: »

What is wrong is that it could be medically dangerous.. you are not in a position to state otherwise..the GP of said patient is

So a Doctor could not take a blood sample and blood pressure .. Give the OP all the necessary tips in regards to cholesterol lowering foods/lifestyle/diets and set an appointment for a month/6 weeks later to check bloods and blood pressure again ?

pone2012 wrote: »

Yes and implied in that statement is that the poster believes diet is the answer... which if congenitally predisposed it isn't.

OP stated that the pills are working but rather not be on them for the rest of their life

OP said there was heart dissease in the family but I didnt see a post stating he/she suffers from Familial hypercholesterolemia

pone2012 wrote: »

Furthermore they stated they want someone "on board" meaning someone who agrees with them...which is effectively a yes person..the OP would have been off the medicine had their GP seen it fit

So if a GP says "yes" to a healthy plant based diet and lifestyle to maybe get a patient of medication that is a bad thing ? And of course if a GP says its okay to take the route the OP is suggesting then what is wrong with it according to yourself they are the professionals

If a proper plant based diet plus a general healthy lifestyle can keep OP's cholesterol under control and off the tablets then that is a big win .... It may save OP from developing type 2 diabetes as well then ... win win

jigglypuffstuff

weisses wrote: »

Well it kinda started with the nonsense in your post below





So a Doctor could not take a blood sample and blood pressure .. Give the OP all the necessary tips in regards to cholesterol lowering foods/lifestyle/diets and set an appointment for a month/6 weeks later to check bloods and blood pressure again ?



OP stated that the pills are working but rather not be on them for the rest of their life

OP said there was heart dissease in the family but I didnt see a post stating he/she suffers from Familial hypercholesterolemia



So if a GP says "yes" to a healthy plant based diet and lifestyle to maybe get a patient of medication that is a bad thing ? And of course if a GP says its okay to take the route the OP is suggesting then what is wrong with it according to yourself they are the professionals

If a proper plant based diet plus a general healthy lifestyle can keep OP's cholesterol under control and off the tablets then that is a big win .... It may save OP from developing type 2 diabetes as well then ... win win

Wow the level of delusion in this post is just unreal

Pills are working... medicine is doing its job....you've already seen it mentioned several times that the reduction from diet is approx 20%..

OP has said a cardiologist was happy with that result.... and this is a heart specialist we are talking about. And there is a history of heart problems... and you are here promoting advice against trained professionals... please give it a rest.. you are neither a medical doctor nor cardiologist. Let the professionals give the medical advice

Forget about a medicine free plant based diet sorting anything out.... ...you cannot even provide me with with a supplement/fortified free plant based diet that is nutritionally sufficient... let alone do anything else.

I've pointed out the tool to do so, so by all means go ahead..

jigglypuffstuff

And on top of that...the very fact that s person would have to go looking for a "plant based" doctor is evidence enough that the vast consensus would view the idea as both dangerous, unnecessary, and for want of a better word, ridiculous

WannaGetFit

Another poster sent me a GP that does what I need. Thanks for all the help. No need for anymore discussion. You would think you guys were the ones that were gonna die if I went off my meds.

Dr Esselstyn who wrote the book Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, that says a whole food plant based diet is the way to prevent and reverse heart disease, is a Cardiologist.

There are many Drs who agree with him and there are many books saying the same thing.

Don’t worry if it’s dangerous for me. I am not.
Peace.
😄

jigglypuffstuff

WannaGetFit wrote: »

Another poster sent me a GP that does what I need. Thanks for all the help. No need for anymore discussion. You would think you guys were the ones that were gonna die if I went off my meds.

Dr Esselstyn who wrote the book Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, that says a whole food plant based diet is the way to prevent and reverse heart disease, is a Cardiologist.

There are many Drs who agree with him and there are many books saying the same thing.

Don’t worry if it’s dangerous for me. I am not.
Peace.
😄

And he's been criticized and debunked thoroughly...a quick Google will show rife inaccuracies and an abundance of bad science... so if you believe that over decades of peer reviewed research... it's evident that your opinion is more important than the facts to you....

Like I said before... it's a yes person you're looking for not an objective medical opinion..I'm glad you've clarified that. Thank you

But no problems...the posters on here who were actually advocating that you stick with your doctor's advice... were not doing so based on opinions or feelings (or big pharma tinfoil hat conspiracy theories) ...they did so based on both scientific consensus and documented facts.

I cannot say the same for the rest...

L1011

weisses wrote: »

But is it medically dangerous if you are on a proper plant based diet ?

If you still have high blood pressure and high cholesterol, yes.

sousou

B12 injections .

.hi im needing to start si injections of b12 ''does anyone here si inject , thast can give me info on where to buy them and needles etc or if there is any clinics in dublin that do them ..