UFC 220 - Miocic Vs Ngannou

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

I don't really understand your point. Is it that Jones retains his legacy because you think that everyone else was cheating too?

There are most definitely guys who cheat and haven't been caught (yet), but to say it's riddled with PEDs is a bit disingenuous. How could you possibly know that?

Could guys like DC, Gus, Rumble be using..I guess they could be, but it's unfair to tarnish them for an obvious reason. Jon Jones has popped while they have not.

Do you consider Bolt the best sprinter of all time? Because he's almost certainly a cheater. His strength and conditioning coach was a BALCO chemist who supplied countless basketball, american football, soccer and rugby players with designer PED's as well as track and field athletes, don't believe me, google Heredia's interview with Der Spiegel in 2008.

CurryFlavoured

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Do you consider Bolt the best sprinter of all time? Because he's almost certainly a cheater. His strength and conditioning coach was a BALCO chemist who supplied countless basketball, american football, soccer and rugby players with designer PED's as well as track and field athletes, don't believe me, google Heredia's interview with Der Spiegel in 2008.

You've slightly gone off on a tangent. Assuming you're right, which there's no hard proof of but I will admit there's a good likelihood, I still don't really see your point in relation to mine.

My point is that Jones has had a significant unfair advantage over his opponents through his cheating. There's no evidence to suggest that his opponents had been cheating in a similar manner. Do you not agree?

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

My point is you're making an emotional argument based on your own notions of fairness or honour.
Jones hasn't even been found guilty of doping yet and you're claiming everything he's achieved is because of his alleged PED use.

I'm saying that if he cheated it enhanced his fighting but he'd still be the best 205er ever with or without PEDs. PED's don't make him a better positionally aware wrestler, a more skilful submission artist, a more intelligent or accurate striker. They'd make him stronger, sure. Faster, maybe. Better endurance, yeah. But without already being one of the best on the planet those augmentations mean nothing.

The Nal

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Jones hasn't even been found guilty of doping yet

Huh?

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I'm saying that if he cheated it enhanced his fighting but he'd still be the best 205er ever with or without PEDs. PED's don't make him a better positionally aware wrestler, a more skilful submission artist, a more intelligent or accurate striker. They'd make him stronger, sure. Faster, maybe. Better endurance, yeah. But without already being one of the best on the planet those augmentations mean nothing.

WTF? Its more difficult to position yourself correctly when you're tired, strikes aren't as accurate if you're tired, submissions aren't as effective if you're tired.

Subcomandante Marcos

Miocic via Submission

The Nal wrote: »

Huh?

He hasn't been, the findings from his previous case were that "the arbitration panel concluded that Jones didn't take the banned substances intentionally and was not a drug cheat".

CurryFlavoured

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

My point is you're making an emotional argument based on your own notions of fairness or honour.
Jones hasn't even been found guilty of doping yet and you're claiming everything he's achieved is because of his alleged PED use.

I'm saying that if he cheated it enhanced his fighting but he'd still be the best 205er ever with or without PEDs. PED's don't make him a better positionally aware wrestler, a more skilful submission artist, a more intelligent or accurate striker. They'd make him stronger, sure. Faster, maybe. Better endurance, yeah. But without already being one of the best on the planet those augmentations mean nothing.

Mate you're sounding like an apologist. He failed a test for a PED (actually two tests) - I think it's fair at this point to say that he's a cheater. We know that turanibol was in his body. You can't say that he's not because they're putting forward a 'tainted supplement' case again :rolleyes:

And you're putting words in my mouth. I never said the PEDs are everything, but I said they're a significant part of the puzzle. They're one factor of what made him so good, but they gave him a significant unfair advantage regardless.

On your suggestion that he'd be the greatest regardless of cheating, that's just conjecture. We'll never know, maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't, you're entitled to that opinion but I don't think that it holds much weight. All we know for now is that he used illegal substances to give himself a significant physical advantage.

The Nal

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

He hasn't been, the findings from his previous case were that "the arbitration panel concluded that Jones didn't take the banned substances intentionally and was not a drug cheat".

Amazing the amount of young healthy people in need of dick pills isn't it? Anderson Silvas go to excuse.

Lukker-

Funny coincidence for Jones that the steroid he tested positive for was on the same order as his dick pills.

Effects

Fromvert wrote: »

What was the deal with Ngannou's corner wrapping him in a towel between rounds

Making sure the sponsorship message was seen clearly.

Mellor

DC via Submission

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Of course I see the technique. But technique alone won't make you the goat - it's a mix of brain and brawn. Jones was a phenomenal athlete and that was part of what gave him an enormous advantage.

It's all pieces of the puzzle. Jones' physical advantage isn't the whole puzzle, but it's a significant piece.

I'm not disregarding the difference athleticism makes. But I see that as an advantage in a fight, in terms of performance.
For example, say I roll with a big blue belt who is stronger than me, then I roll with a high experience belt who is smaller than me. They'll both give me an equally hard time. But afterwards, I feel I couldn't unquestionable state that the purple belt was more technical. More skillful.
Does that make sense?

I don't think Jones is/was one of the best because of his results, performances, or because he could physically pull off athletic the moves. It was more the way he was hardwired to even attempt them. If somebody else was as athletic and strong as Jones, they probably would do any of that stuff.

Compare that to Ngannou. Devastating power and speed. But that's about it. There's nothing technically impressive about his striking. He loads up and wings it, if it connects it's goodnight. If somebody else had that power, they could probably pull off those KOs.

The Nal wrote: »

WTF? Its more difficult to position yourself correctly when you're tired, strikes aren't as accurate if you're tired, submissions aren't as effective if you're tired.

You are still huge up on performances and trying to make the point that steroids make a difference. That is completely true, but nobody has disputed that.

derfderf

Oezdemir via KO

The Nal wrote: »

Amazing the amount of young healthy people in need of dick pills isn't it? Anderson Silvas go to excuse.

They'd come in handy if you had a coke habit.

Useful.Idiot

DC via Decision

Re steroids and technique - could be noted that taking steroids for your whole career gives you a significant recovery advantage over cleaner athletes. You can train longer, harder and more often per day than clean fighters and that would include drilling techniques over and over again, so there must be some carryover there with regards technical advantage.

CurryFlavoured

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not disregarding the difference athleticism makes. But I see that as an advantage in a fight, in terms of performance.
For example, say I roll with a big blue belt who is stronger than me, then I roll with a high experience belt who is smaller than me. They'll both give me an equally hard time. But afterwards, I feel I couldn't unquestionable state that the purple belt was more technical. More skillful.
Does that make sense?

I don't think Jones is/was one of the best because of his results, performances, or because he could physically pull off athletic the moves. It was more the way he was hardwired to even attempt them. If somebody else was as athletic and strong as Jones, they probably would do any of that stuff.

Compare that to Ngannou. Devastating power and speed. But that's about it. There's nothing technically impressive about his striking. He loads up and wings it, if it connects it's goodnight. If somebody else had that power, they could probably pull off those KOs.
.

I understand what you're saying, and I understand that skill is very important in fighting, particularly jiu jitsu. But a better analogy would be - who would you rather fight; a man with a given set of skills/physical capabilities, or a man with the same set of skills, but also a 5-10% advantage in terms of power,strength, endurance. No brainer.

Whether or not you believe that the physical advantage he gave himself was very significant or not is irrelevant tbh. You don't feel it's significant because his skillset is so strong anyway, I'm pretty confident that his physical prowess played a massive role in his domination. I can get into this if you want, but these are just our opinions. Trying to guess what Jones would be like without this physical advantage is pie in the sky stuff, we don't know - maybe he'd have been champ, maybe he'd only have been top 15. The underlying point that is indisputable is that Jones put substances in his body to give himself an unfair physical advantage, and for that reason I don't consider him when talking about the greatest fighters of all time.

Mellor

DC via Submission

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Whether or not you believe that the physical advantage he gave himself was very significant or not is irrelevant tbh. You don't feel it's significant because his skillset is so strong anyway, I'm pretty confident that his physical prowess played a massive role in his domination.

I don't think I said the steroids were an insignificant edge. Certainly didn't mean to give that impression. I'm fairly strongly anti-PED in general.

I just think that if the most skilled person in a sport decides to get on the juice. They don't stop being the most skilled. But you're right, we can't ever know where one ends and the other starts.