Proposed suckler cow subsidy

grassroot1

Perhaps there are two issues for debate
1.Lack of profit in beef farming(unfair division of the retail price)
2.Should we introduce a payment to keep suckler cows for Ireland INC.

Grueller

K.G. wrote: »

Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.

The tillage sector? I have to disagree completely. They are producing a product from land that is of sufficient quality to run any enterprise you like. Dairy or whatever you like. That is not the case for the majority of suckler men.
As for tillage men not having off farm jobs. They are busy for about six weeks of the year and have pucks of time to run off farm jobs.
Whatever about subsidies and whether they should exist, I can see that argument but to give it to tillage men who are on top quality land. Sorry, not seeing it.

Who2

Would Larry still give a fair price if all the sucklers were gone and exporters stopped coming.

Bullocks

Who2 wrote: »

Would Larry still give a fair price if all the sucklers were gone and exporters stopped coming.

Course he would .......

sonnybill

If the lad in lettermore with 14 sucklers housed hadn't his own fodder and is buying in everything ie hay e35+ a round bale, straw 25 and 25kg bags of dairy nuts at E8.00 believe me he got no E1050 average this year, E40 ai, bullets , dosing , pour on, rent, etc etc They a past time I'm afraid

Butcher Boy

sonnybill wrote: »

If the lad in lettermore with 14 sucklers housed hadn't his own fodder and is buying in everything ie hay e35+ a round bale, straw 25 and 25kg bags of dairy nuts at E8.00 believe me he got no E1050 average this year, E40 ai, bullets , dosing , pour on, rent, etc etc They a past time I'm afraid

I have been to a lot of weanling sales this past year down here in west cork and Kerry and I can tell you the amount of them making the E1000 was very few.in macroom last Saturday 370 kg ch bulls E810 after along struggle.

White Clover

Butcher Boy wrote: »

I have been to a lot of weanling sales this past year down here in west cork and Kerry and I can tell you the amount of them making the E1000 was very few.in macroom last Saturday 370 kg ch bulls E810 after along struggle.

Off topic BB, what were friesian bullocks making? 500 to 550 kg, nice warm types

Butcher Boy

White Clover wrote: »

Off topic BB, what were friesian bullocks making? 500 to 550 kg, nice warm types

I saw nice outwintered lads a bit washed looking , 530kgs make E870.that was the best I saw ,the lighter they were the worse they were.

Bass Reeves

White Clover wrote: »

Off topic BB, what were friesian bullocks making? 500 to 550 kg, nice warm types

I was at a mart last week and these types were making 400ish with there weight. 400kg ones were making 300 with there weight. Same type of HE and AA were making 500 with there weight.

Bullocks

Wonder will you have had to be in the beef data scheme to qualify for a new premium ?
I hope not cos we didn't sign up for it !

wrangler

Birdnuts wrote: »

Regards this proposed sub - is there a limit in the number of suckler cows per herd number/owner it will be paid on?? I hope so cos if its unlimited it will simply end up boosting the bottom line of Larry et al.

It's unlikely to be introduced, but if it is, it won't be allowed if there's a risk of increasing production.
When I started farming, it was rearing friesian calves, the lack of holstein and availability of good growth promoters meant they were reasonable quality.
At the start, calves were £60, within a few years they were £200 without the beef price increasing,
Seeing you'd want money given with the calves now, pushing all suckler farmers towards dairy cattle will have the same effect and is a non runner.
Like the fodder shortage, those not affected can't comprehend that some farms are only suited to suckling and never be the quality to make friesian farming profitable

K.G.

Grueller wrote: »

K.G. wrote: »

Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.

The tillage sector? I have to disagree completely. They are producing a product from land that is of sufficient quality to run any enterprise you like. Dairy or whatever you like. That is not the case for the majority of suckler men.
As for tillage men not having off farm jobs. They are busy for about six weeks of the year and have pucks of time to run off farm jobs.
Whatever about subsidies and whether they should exist, I can see that argument but to give it to tillage men who are on top quality land. Sorry, not seeing it.

So you really not looking for a suckler sub as such but you feel you need support as there is not enough margin in keeping a suckler on difficult land .would it make more sense to give a sub to reduce numbers by 20% thereby reducing costs and lowering risks associated with bad weather and fodder.

carrollsno1

K.G. wrote: »

Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.

Tillage farming is a lifestyle choice in my opinion.

Grueller

K.G. wrote: »

So you really not looking for a suckler sub as such but you feel you need support as there is not enough margin in keeping a suckler on difficult land .would it make more sense to give a sub to reduce numbers by 20% thereby reducing costs and lowering risks associated with bad weather and fodder.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am making money from sucklers and will gladly accept a sub if it comes. I am on the best of Wexford land but due to fragmentation beef or tillage is my only option, but I hate driving machinery.

Something similar to extensification? That would possibly work.

wrangler

K.G. wrote: »

So you really not looking for a suckler sub as such but you feel you need support as there is not enough margin in keeping a suckler on difficult land .would it make more sense to give a sub to reduce numbers by 20% thereby reducing costs and lowering risks associated with bad weather and fodder.

Fixed costs would still be the same, you'd hope that sucklers would at least break even, only a fool would go to work every day to pay to keep cows.It needs to be attractive now to keep cows, young people are too well educated to accept any less when they do concede to maintain the land in difficult terrain
Envronmentally it's better to subsidise farming than farmers walking away, some parts of this country would depress you to drive through

K.G.

Or would it be better to give a tax refund instead considering there is so many part timers involved.just thinking if its to support the industry in general shouldnt there be a support to encourage dairy farmers to use contental breeds.

milligan2

Bullocks wrote: »

Wonder will you have had to be in the beef data scheme to qualify for a new premium ?
I hope not cos we didn't sign up for it !

I’d say there isn’t a hope lads are going to get 200 a cow just for keeping them,hoops will have to be jumped through.They will probably link to the beef data and add 100 euro and hey presto €200 suckler scheme.

charolais0153

K.G. wrote: »

Or would it be better to give a tax refund instead considering there is so many part timers involved.just thinking if its to support the industry in general shouldnt there be a support to encourage dairy farmers to use contental breeds.

Dairy farmers dont need any bloody support.
The suckler farmers that need this subsidy arent the ones who pay tax

wrangler

charolais0153 wrote: »

Dairy farmers dont need any bloody support.
The suckler farmers that need this subsidy arent the ones who pay tax

Apart from young farmers, there's a lot of dairy farmers getting good increases in their BPS,....hard to figure eh

White Clover

K.G. wrote: »

Or would it be better to give a tax refund instead considering there is so many part timers involved.just thinking if its to support the industry in general shouldnt there be a support to encourage dairy farmers to use contental breeds.

If they kept away from the jersey and kiwi x's it'd do. The Holstein is ok if bred for a bit of power.
Not gonna happen and can't blame them I suppose.

charolais0153

Imo. I dont really think theres a need for support. There isnt going to be a mass exodus overnight because there is no support.the majority i knoe that are getting out of suckling is because of the work involved or because of age. 200 doesnt make too much difference to them when they arent fit for the work.

If thete was something brougt in, id like to see it similiar to the current bdgp system, with incentives to use ai and breed better stock using the star system ,even though it is wrong at times its individual animals and i think over a whole herd you wouldnt notice the anomalys as much.

Bullocks

wrangler wrote: »

Fixed costs would still be the same, you'd hope that sucklers would at least break even, only a fool would go to work every day to pay to keep cows.It needs to be attractive now to keep cows, young people are too well educated to accept any less when they do concede to maintain the land in difficult terrain
Envronmentally it's better to subsidise farming than farmers walking away, some parts of this country would depress you to drive through

It's rare that I would agree with you on these matters but I think you're right here . I think a better environmental type scheme that can be worked into ANC with farmers is a better option than a blanket subsidy on sucklers .

Bass Reeves

Butcher Boy wrote: »

I have been to a lot of weanling sales this past year down here in west cork and Kerry and I can tell you the amount of them making the E1000 was very few.in macroom last Saturday 370 kg ch bulls E810 after along struggle.

370kgs for a bull off a suckler cow is to a certain extent a waste f time when he is hitting nearly 12 months. I had some FR and SH yearling leaving the shed at that weight last year. They were on silage only form late January until turnout. For a calf from a suckler cow with Continental breeding he should be hitting over the 400 kgs. Even at that January is usually a bad months to sell these type of weanling as not enough for sale for exporters to compete.

A lot of the Ch bred in Ireland are not export quality cattle. Having said that some of the best suckler bred cattle come from west Cork and Kerry. Macroom can be very nuch a buyers mart from what I hear. Often taught of giving it a visit

wrangler

Bullocks wrote: »

It's rare that I would agree with you on these matters but I think you're right here . I think a better environmental type scheme that can be worked into ANC with farmers is a better option than a blanket subsidy on sucklers .

too easy to draw the money and do nothing in environmental schemes, environment is too important to be left in the hands of Department of environment.....I hate to see the wildbird cover and that grassland mixed species one.
Much better that farmers maintain a good level of management, I know there's some right messers out there but most farmers can be encouraged to maintain a level of management....

I've seen some lovely crops of ragworth being cut in the mixed species one....it'll be monospecies with that management

Willfarman

Planting wild bird cover suitable to sustain little more than vermin and at the same time trimming berry laden white and black thorn hedges is indeed silly but the traditional meadows around me are lovely. Definitely an increase in ground nesting birds. (Good farmer that keeps rushes in check)

An extensification type payment would benefit the farmers in marginal ground the most. Coupling payment to a cow in ground that has limitations in what it can sustain without bought in feed will do nothing for the pockets of these aging farmers or part time younger guys.

Cavanjack

What does the journal or whoever is driving the purposed €200 subsidie for suckler suggest take the hit for this? Will they knock a bit off everyone's sfp to pay for it? Can't see them raising the budget for it.

Sheep breeder

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

I dont get it.
Why would a lad keep a 700 kg cow that eats more than a store and rear a middling calf that gets €800 in the mart and then has the hand out for the €200 needed to get to the magic €1000 mark???????
If he bred the right stock and had the clue and cop on of a decent business man and produced shapey export type weanlings he could keep the cap on his head and not looking for it to be filled.
Farming is a fecking business not a right.
I probably am going to get a pasting for even saying the above but i dont give a toss. Is the definition of insanity not doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?? Or am i misssing the trick here entirely?

How many weanlings are exported each year and if every Cow in the country produced an export weanlings where would they all find homes.

wrangler

Willfarman wrote: »

Planting wild bird cover suitable to sustain little more than vermin and at the same time trimming berry laden white and black thorn hedges is indeed silly but the traditional meadows around me are lovely. Definitely an increase in ground nesting birds. (Good farmer that keeps rushes in check)

An extensification type payment would benefit the farmers in marginal ground the most. Coupling payment to a cow in ground that has limitations in what it can sustain without bought in feed will do nothing for the pockets of these aging farmers or part time younger guys.

Giving a subsidy won't involve them buying in more feed if it's based what they had in previous years.
Also if there's a subsidy on cows these ageing farmers can pay a bit of labour, there isn't a farm in the country that wouldn't welcome five or ten grand

Figerty

Cavanjack wrote: »

What does the journal or whoever is driving the purposed €200 subsidie for suckler suggest take the hit for this? Will they knock a bit off everyone's sfp to pay for it? Can't see them raising the budget for it.

And we will have forgotten that when there was headage,, there were a lot of heads,, and very poor quality bodies attached....
The Beef scheme was purporting the opposite.. less heads but better quality to reduce the 'emissions'.

Sheep breeder

wrangler wrote: »

too easy to draw the money and do nothing in environmental schemes, environment is too important to be left in the hands of Department of environment.....I hate to see the wildbird cover and that grassland mixed species one.
Much better that farmers maintain a good level of management, I know there's some right messers out there but most farmers can be encouraged to maintain a level of management....

I've seen some lovely crops of ragworth being cut in the mixed species one....it'll be monospecies with that management

Sorry have to disagree about the wild bird cover which is a good crop when shown properly for birds and lovely to see the flocks of small birds feeding and the pheasants.

Sheep breeder

There can not be a suckler sub per head, when ireland decoupled in the sps they can not go back and and schemes since has being about carrying out and recording measures and area based, the suckler Cow scheme and bdgp and grassland sheep scheme and sheep welfare scheme.
The problem for the man with sucklers is are they are so addictive.

charolais0153

Sheep breeder wrote: »

The problem for the man with sucklers is are they are so addictive.

Very true

Water John

Bass, you'll be very welcome in Macroom. Just remember, as the saying goes, Macroom never reared a fool.

Cattlepen

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Ah but the likes of that lad is the enemy. He is looked at as no better than the knacker. Waste disposal for the dairy boys and glutting the market for the rest. And please dont give me guff about bad land. I was doing a scheme back the far end of Lettermore and met one guy and got talking. He said come down here and ill show ya what I have. He had a big newly constructed byre and 14 cows chained up with the finest calves I have seen in any field or yard in the country. Ave price 1050 per weanling over last 5 years. If he can do it on rock and rushes then there is no excuse for the rest.

14 cows is one thing. Try calving 100 of them. Your mortality will be out through the roof. Subsidies are the system that has developed. If you want to stand on the high moral ground and don’t avail of them fine, but don’t be saying everyone else should be like you

Cattlepen

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

That makes you as bad as the lads proping up the narrow strip of wall between the bookies and the pub smoking at 11.30am on a Wedneaday morning.

Jaysus your a pillar of moral guidance. What have lads at the bookies got to do with this????
And smoking at 11.30 on a weds morning??? Your a great man to throw judgements on people

Cattlepen

Bullocks wrote: »

Wonder will you have had to be in the beef data scheme to qualify for a new premium ?
I hope not cos we didn't sign up for it !

I hope not too. How could they make that a requirement?

Willfarman

wrangler wrote: »

Giving a subsidy won't involve them buying in more feed if it's based what they had in previous years.
Also if there's a subsidy on cows these ageing farmers can pay a bit of labour, there isn't a farm in the country that wouldn't welcome five or ten grand

No doubt a few bob would be welcome but direct production payments are not the way to ensure it stays in the farmers pocket. And a payment for a reduced herd needent PRECLUDE the aging farmer from employing some help!!!

Grueller

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Sorry have to disagree about the wild bird cover which is a good crop when shown properly for birds and lovely to see the flocks of small birds feeding and the pheasants.

Some of those crops around here are entering year 4 this spring. They havent been allowed to use chemicals to get a sterile seed bed and guess what happened, the docs, rushes and thistles along with scutch redshank and ragwort are choking out the linseed and oats more and more each year.

wrangler

Willfarman wrote: »

No doubt a few bob would be welcome but direct production payments are not the way to ensure it stays in the farmers pocket. And a payment for a reduced herd needent PRECLUDE the aging farmer from employing some help!!!

ffs, I don't know what way you farm but here reducing stocking rate from the optimum reduces the quality of the grass, not much point in giving a subsidy if you have to handicap him first.

Your little preclude joke falls flat when you put a spelling mistake one side and an american spelling the other side

CloughCasey1

Sheep breeder wrote: »

How many weanlings are exported each year and if every Cow in the country produced an export weanlings where would they all find homes.

Hanging in Larrys cold rooms at 15 mts 420kg dead with no movement off farm.

Butcher Boy

Water John wrote: »

Bass, you'll be very welcome in Macroom. Just remember, as the saying goes, Macroom never reared a fool.

you also might run into minister creed there.

Willfarman

wrangler wrote: »

ffs, I don't know what way you farm but here reducing stocking rate from the optimum reduces the quality of the grass, not much point in giving a subsidy if you have to handicap him first.

Your little preclude joke falls flat when you put a spelling mistake one side and an american spelling the other side

By coupling it to an inefficient loss making cow you are crippling him.
There are plenty of ways of managing surplus grass.

I apologizes for me poor spellin and grammaer spoiling my little joke for you

patsy_mccabe

Figerty wrote: »

And we will have forgotten that when there was headage,, there were a lot of heads,, and very poor quality bodies attached....
The Beef scheme was purporting the opposite.. less heads but better quality to reduce the 'emissions'.

If there is a Suckler Cow Subsidy introduced, then it does make sense to link it some way then to reduced emmissions. They could have a lower payment to all cows and then bonuses of some sort then for more effecient breeding and practices. Kind of along the lines of the Carbon Navigator. Very easy then to sell the concept to the general public.

50HX

there may also be another slant on this which i think is being overlooked and that is that suckler farming is predominantly a rural west of ireland enterprise

if lads are forced out of sucklers due to rising costs etc then that'll be the biggest nail in the coffin of the demise of rural ireland

i can't see a sub coming for sucklers.....lads are getting out anyway and i think its mainly due to age profile more than profitability

in a 10 mile radius of my place i am by far the youngest suckler farmer ( u 40)

i slowly culled all the big cont cows here - yes the weanlings were making abit more than the rest of the herd average but with the way weather is going i opted for lighter cows with more milk

farmerwifelet

The problem is constantly moving goalposts for small suckler farms. When you get a good ai bull the next year he is gone. A lot of the ai bulls being pushed leave average to poor calves and traits and stars are pure guesswork year after year. Lads will tell you a good cow doesnt reflect in stars. Yet when animals are sent to factory its very hard to get good grades no matter what the breed. They are pushing ai as the way forward and all these schemes. Sometimes it is like they have very little interest in the actual cow and her welfare and more in the sparrows in the hedge!

CloughCasey1

Cattlepen wrote: »

14 cows is one thing. Try calving 100 of them. Your mortality will be out through the roof. Subsidies are the system that has developed. If you want to stand on the high moral ground and don’t avail of them fine, but don’t be saying everyone else should be like you

Thats not what i am getting at all. There shouldnt be a 200 per cow payment for farmers just because they have sucklers. Simple as that.

CloughCasey1

Cattlepen wrote: »

Jaysus your a pillar of moral guidance. What have lads at the bookies got to do with this????
And smoking at 11.30 on a weds morning??? Your a great man to throw judgements on people

You forgot the drinking bit aswell

wrangler

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Thats not what i am getting at all. There shouldnt be a 200 per cow payment for farmers just because they have sucklers. Simple as that.

The EU is able to spend the Agri budget underpinning dairy farmers, why not the suckler farmers, milk was a poor price for only a few months when they... intervened...how long has suckling been in the doldrums.....most twenty cow suckler herds will do more for the environment in Ireland than any dairy farms I see.
Carbon navigator shouldn't be allowed into the equation, like the stars it's grand for the desk driver but to use it as a criteria for anything is wrong. the results are for the birds......how can any animal be a 5 star then a 3 and then a 2....

Water John

There are a whole lot of competing interests. What are you trying to achieve? Keep a supply of fully beef animals for export or factory.
Keep farmers on the land, for a variety of purposes.

Outside factors for example include as mentioned, it cannot be a headage payment. An animal raised from calf to beef has half the carbon footprint of a beef animal from a suckler.

There is some pointers in the Glas scheme, for all its failings.
The core being, a whole range of choices that can be configured to suit each farm. If help is needed to this sector, a broadening of this path would seem the best option.

CloughCasey1

wrangler wrote: »

The EU is able to spend the Agri budget underpinning dairy farmers, why not the suckler farmers, milk was a poor price for only a few months when they... intervened...how long has suckling been in the doldrums.....most twenty cow suckler herds will do more for the environment in Ireland than any dairy farms I see.
Carbon navigator shouldn't be allowed into the equation, like the stars it's grand for the desk driver but to use it as a criteria for anything is wrong. the results are for the birds......how can any animal be a 5 star then a 3 and then a 2....

Why not every farmer??