Let go after almost 8 years.

AndrewJRenko

I'm pretty sure there is an obligation on the employer to provide warm clothing under H&S legislation. I can't find anything with a quick search on HSA.ie but it might be worth contacting them to confirm this.

The diesel fill issue raises tax and BIK issues for the employer and possibly even for yourself. If things get rough, you might be able to use this in negotiations. It would cost them if Revenue cracked down over these under the counter payments to employees for an extended period.

Avatar MIA

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The diesel fill issue raises tax and BIK issues for the employer and possibly even for yourself. If things get rough, you might be able to use this in negotiations. It would cost them if Revenue cracked down over these under the counter payments to employees for an extended period.

Almost certainly would accuse the OP of stealing so wouldn't go down that road.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Almost certainly would accuse the OP of stealing so wouldn't go down that road.

Is he going to accuse all the other employees who get the diesel of stealing too?

kurtainsider

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Almost certainly would accuse the OP of stealing so wouldn't go down that road.

Not necessarily. Any mediator would form a view on which party in the dispute is the more believable. If the OP sticks to the truth it sounds like they have a cast iron case which they should pursue.

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AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is he going to accuse all the other employees who get the diesel of stealing too?

Who's going to admit that, the other employees (unlikely) or take the word of a disgruntled employee with a disciplinary record against them for taking possibly Green Diesel.

upandcumming

amcalester wrote:

It isn’t illegal to record yourself having a conversation with someone else even if they aren’t aware of the recording.

I don't think that flies in an employment environment.

Avatar MIA

kurtainsider wrote: »

Any mediator would form a view on which party in the dispute is the more believable.

There's paperwork of the employee being disciplined for taking diesel.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Who's going to admit that, the other employees (unlikely) or take the word of a disgruntled employee with a disciplinary record against them for taking possibly Green Diesel.

It wouldn't be a huge job for Revenue to reconcile the 'official' diesel used against the quantities of diesel bought, and put the obligation on the business to explain the difference.

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AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It wouldn't be a huge job for Revenue to reconcile the 'official' diesel used against the quantities of diesel bought, and put the obligation on the business to explain the difference.

It depends on the quantities used legitimately and otherwise. It could be a huge job to prove.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

It depends on the quantities used legitimately and otherwise. It could be a huge job to prove.

That's the joy of Revenue. They don't have to prove it. The business has to prove it.

kurtainsider

Avatar MIA wrote: »

There's paperwork of the employee being disciplined for taking diesel.

Perhaps. Paper has never been know to refuse ink. Again - a moderator would make their decision having heard both sides. It seems like a fairly simple job to show that this employer is an underhanded cowboy. Their disciplinary procedures would then be viewed in this context.

The decision would be to decide whether or not this employee took the diesel without permission (stole it) every second week and, following a disciplinary procedure for this theft continued to steal it every second week with no further action being taken. I can't see a bit of paperwork trumping this in fairness.

Anyway - that's only one small side issue in a bigger picture.

Avatar MIA

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's the joy of Revenue. They don't have to prove it. The business has to prove it.

And the employer may say 'It looks like the others may have been stealing it, and we'll need to take more care' Revenue will likely note it and take no other action.

In the context of this thread it doesn't seem like a clever thing for the employee to do seeing he seems to have them over a barrel on other issues of due process.

He has less than 8 years of service, so looks like he's entitled to 15 weeks salary at least and possible more under unfair dismissal. I'd not muddy the water by blackmailing them.

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kurtainsider wrote: »

Anyway - that's only one small side issue in a bigger picture.

Agreed - go down the blackmail route and it could go pear shaped.

AndrewJRenko

Avatar MIA wrote: »

And the employer may say 'It looks like the others may have been stealing it, and we'll need to take more care' Revenue will likely note it and take no other action.

In the context of this thread it doesn't seem like a clever thing for the employee to do seeing he seems to have them over a barrel on other issues of due process.

He has less than 8 years of service, so looks like he's entitled to 15 weeks salary at least and possible more under unfair dismissal. I'd not muddy the water by blackmailing them.

How hard is it going to be to find one current or past employee who will back up the 'under the counter diesel for wages' story?

But in general, I don't disagree with you - which is why I prefaced it with 'if things get rough'.

kurtainsider

Anyhow:

What does the OP need to bring away from the meeting on their mobile phone recording?

"You're not fired - you're redundant"

"You're not redundant - you're fired"

"What the f*** are you doing here?"

What statement will hang this flute most and result in the best outcome for the OP? What questions should the OP ask? What shouldn't he ask?

I don't know much about these issues but I'm sure that the OP could use some sound advice in advance of what may be a painful encounter.

lightspeed

if your planning on leaving for another job related to your degree, would be happy about this outcome?

You can easily take a case for unfair dismissal by the sounds of it which I understand the awards can be up to 2 times your yearly salary.

If it was me id be delighted and heading straight to a solicitor or just talk to some at workplace relations committee to get the ball rolling on making the claim.

Your employer has not even given you a contract of employment. When he said if you are threatening legal action against the company you can leave now, I would have put it in an email that i am doing just that and cc myself in it for my own records.


You live in a country with powerful employment rights that allow employees to easily sue for unfair dismissal amongst other things. Why would you not be taking legal action? How is your employer that tick?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/labour_relations_commission.html

You mentioned that you are being let go due to restructuring. There is an onus on your employer to prove some restructuring does take place and is not just pulling that out of the air to get rid of you.

With regard to worrying about affording college in the short term, id recommend calling SUSI who deal with tuition grants as i they may be able to help out.

Mr. Rahm

The diesel is not green. They also gave me €250 in cash at Christmas which I think is avoiding tax?

I asked him numerous times on Friday was he sacking me but he would not say sack, he said "we're letting you go". He was very careful about that.

Another colleague has told me he is taking over my job on Monday.

Avatar MIA

kurtainsider wrote: »

Anyhow:

What does the OP need to bring away from the meeting on their mobile phone recording?

"You're not fired - you're redundant"

"You're not redundant - you're fired"

"What the f*** are you doing here?"

What statement will hang this flute most and result in the best outcome for the OP? What questions should the OP ask? What shouldn't he ask?

I don't know much about these issues but I'm sure that the OP could use some sound advice in advance of what may be a painful encounter.

If it were me I'd keep it simple. I'd turn up for work tomorrow. If told by El Supdido that I'm fired I'd ask for it in writing. If told again to FO, I'd go to the next manager level up and repeat - possibly up to the owner. If STILL the same I'd pay a visit to the solicitor.

The point being if I turn up for work and not given a termination letter then the clock is still ticking on my employment and will get paid (eventually), even if that time is spent sitting waiting in a solicitor's office.

Avatar MIA

Mr. Rahm wrote: »

The diesel is not green. They also gave me €250 in cash at Christmas which I think is avoiding tax?

I asked him numerous times on Friday was he sacking me but he would not say sack, he said "we're letting you go". He was very careful about that.

Another colleague has told me he is taking over my job on Monday.

In that case go to someone more senior. And then go to a solicitor. You're dealing with fools, and your solicitor will tear them a new entrance, so to speak. But, definitely go to higher up first, or you'll lessen your case or strengthen it more by doing so.

Mr. Rahm

lightspeed wrote: »

if your planning on leaving for another job related to your degree, would be happy about this outcome?

You can easily take a case for unfair dismissal by the sounds of it which I understand the awards can be up to 2 times your yearly salary.

If it was me id be delighted and heading straight to a solicitor or just talk to some at workplace relations committee to get the ball rolling on making the claim.

Your employer has not even given you a contract of employment. When he said if you are threatening legal action against the company you can leave now, I would have put it in an email that i am doing just that and cc myself in it for my own records.


You live in a country with powerful employment rights that allow employees to easily sue for unfair dismissal amongst other things. Why would you not be taking legal action? How is your employer that tick?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/labour_relations_commission.html

You mentioned that you are being let go due to restructuring. There is an onus on your employer to prove some restructuring does take place and is not just pulling that out of the air to get rid of you.

With regard to worrying about affording college in the short term, id recommend calling SUSI who deal with tuition grants as i they may be able to help out.

I want to keep this job until I have another job secured. Money is tight. The restructuring is BS, there's plenty of work for me there, but they can easily get another person to do it for minimum wage or even free as they take on a lot of students doing work experience throughout the year.

If I go in tomorrow and leave on the 30th of January it might look like I left of my own accord. They told me they won't be paying me after this date.

lightspeed

Mr. Rahm wrote: »

The diesel is not green. They also gave me €250 in cash at Christmas which I think is avoiding tax?

I asked him numerous times on Friday was he sacking me but he would not say sack, he said "we're letting you go". He was very careful about that.

Another colleague has told me he is taking over my job on Monday.

Happy days, it is completely illegal for him to do that. I suggest you contact the WRC or a solicitor.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/labour_relations_commission.html

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/

Avatar MIA

Mr. Rahm wrote: »

hey also gave me €250 in cash at Christmas which I think is avoiding tax?

Again, this shows how amateurish they are, they could simply have given you a gift voucher for the same amount and be tax compliant.

However, before you get up on your high moral horse, you didn't need to take it knowing it was fraudulent.

lightspeed

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Again, this shows how amateurish they are, they could simply have given you a gift voucher for the same amount and be tax compliant.

However, before you get up on your high moral horse, you didn't need to take it knowing it was fraudulent.

What? its not his business or concern as an employee whether or not the employer has been compliant with tax requirements.

Assuming he is a PAYE employee, the onus is entirely on the employer to make sure its legally accounted for. Why as an employee should he care if it isn't? That isn't in anyway his responsibility?

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lightspeed wrote: »

What? its not his business or concern as an employee whether or not the employer has been compliant with tax requirements.

Assuming he is a PAYE employee, the onus is entirely on the employer to make sure its legally accounted for. Why as an employee should he care if it isn't? That isn't in anyway his responsibility?

The onus is on the employer to comply with PAYE. However, the onus is on everyone not to take gains that are known to be fraudulent.

He has received payment that has not been taxed. He should hand it back and ask for it to be dealt with properly or contact revenue directly to pay the missing tax by filling in a form 12.

The OP should still do this.

Mr. Rahm

The owner is on site at least once a week so he is involved in the company but I'm not sure he'll take my word over a manager's. Or maybe the fact I'm there almost 8 years whereas the manager is there less than 18 months overall might help my case with him. The problem is I have no contact details for him.

Another thing I think might be illegal is some people there work 12 days in a row. Monday to Friday, half day Saturday and Sunday and then Monday to Friday again. These are mostly non-nationals who live in a house on site.

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Mr. Rahm wrote: »

The owner is on site at least once a week so he is involved in the company but I'm not sure he'll take my word over a manager's. Or maybe the fact I'm there almost 8 years whereas the manager is there less than 18 months overall might help my case with him. The problem is I have no contact details for him.

Another thing I think might be illegal is some people there work 12 days in a row. Monday to Friday, half day Saturday and Sunday and then Monday to Friday again. These are mostly non-nationals who live in a house on site.

The owner doesn't need to believe you, he still needs to follow procedure. But, if there are employees working 12 full days in a row, I'd not be surprised if he acted the same as your manager. HOWEVER, give him the opportunity to mess up by asking him. Try and get his phone number, try an operator. Do you know where you could write to him. Is it a limited company. PM me the details and I'll get you contact details in 2 minutes.

_Brian

Honestly there’s a pair of ye in it.

Fighting with the boss, coming in late with no agreement with current boss, taking diesel with no written agreement.

Him throwing his weight about not knowing if he wants to sack you or make you redundant and I presume not knowing the implications of either.

I think there is little in way of getting things back on track here.

Might be hest to go in and suggest maybe ye got off to a bad start and see if an agreement can’t be gotten to.

People are saying go to court but honestly your not covered in glory here either with some of the behaviour mentioned in the opening post.

Your wages are atrocious and I’d be inclined to say walk away and look for a properly paid job, you’d make that money stack shelves in Aldi all week. However I suspect you’ll get no reference which could be a problem.

Best thing I can say is go back and see if ye can’t come to an agreement with you staying on, if he’s insisting your finished ask in what manner, being made redundant or sacked.

But if he can say you were stealing diesel it’s gross misconduct and so you can be terminated easily for this alone. Quarry near me let someone go for this very thing after 20 years service.

Your down to damage limitation on this, there is no easy fix and no way out without going back and talking to him and seeing exactly where you stand.

Mr. Rahm

_Brian wrote: »

Honestly there’s a pair of ye in it.

Fighting with the boss, coming in late with no agreement with current boss, taking diesel with no written agreement.

Him throwing his weight about not knowing if he wants to sack you or make you redundant and I presume not knowing the implications of either.

I think there is little in way of getting things back on track here.

Might be hest to go in and suggest maybe ye got off to a bad start and see if an agreement can’t be gotten to.

People are saying go to court but honestly your not covered in glory here either with some of the behaviour mentioned in the opening post.

Your wages are atrocious and I’d be inclined to say walk away and look for a properly paid job, you’d make that money stack shelves in Aldi all week. However I suspect you’ll get no reference which could be a problem.

Best thing I can say is go back and see if ye can’t come to an agreement with you staying on, if he’s insisting your finished ask in what manner, being made redundant or sacked.

But if he can say you were stealing diesel it’s gross misconduct and so you can be terminated easily for this alone. Quarry near me let someone go for this very thing after 20 years service.

Your down to damage limitation on this, there is no easy fix and no way out without going back and talking to him and seeing exactly where you stand.

I work very hard. Lots of days of working through breaks. Do you work for free?

The diesel is not an issue here. Half of employees get it on site while others have a diesel card. By your logic, they'd have to fire half their staff. A written agreement? Are you joking? They couldn't be bothered giving me a contract of employment. They wouldn't even give me payslips at the start, I had to ring the payroll person myself to arrange for them to be emailed to me every week.

I don't want to be fighting with anyone but when my safety and rights are threatened, I will fight back.

Avatar MIA

Mr. Rahm wrote: »

I work very hard. Lots of days of working through breaks. Do you work for free?

No point getting defensive. Brian is pointing out the weaknesses in what you have said. Better here than hearing them for the first time from your solicitor or in court.

tayto lover

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/enacted/en/html
Have a look through this OP and you might find something to help your case.