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Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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    #4502
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ahh we're going to lump a hundred years of social change all together for convenience sake then?

    The RC is a religious body with political leanings run by a foreign group. As for "The fought against contraception even", they still do... and female priests... and priests that can marry.. and a host of other changes. They're a bastion of retarded thinking. Not really sure why you're referring to them in the context of this thread.

    SSM and abortion are only in the last five years hardly history.
    Deleted User wrote: »

    Err.. most things affect peoples lives... what's your point? No, seriously, I'm trying to understand your pov but it seems rather simplistic and yet, I'm not quite getting it. Surely, you're not dumbing down social issues this much?

    On one side the worst that can happen is some "mean" tweets" and disagreement, on the other the worst that can happen is you can't get married, have to carry a child after rape. False equivalence saying they are the same.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    The equivalent of whom? The far left and the far right are rather similar in their intolerance of other peoples opinions. The "left" and "right" are different but I'd be hard pressed to really identify zones of interest anymore. Although, I'd definitely include SJW/Feminism in the left. They tend to go hand in hand these days.

    For me, it's more about leftist/right principles on different topics. It's not the case anymore of always being on the left or right.



    Leftist attitudes on Trans issues, for example, say "lets bring it all in regardless of the negatives because everyone has their individual rights except for the people who don't agree with us. Because they're bigots. Talking about consequences is bigoted because you're being negative. Let's all be positive! All the time!".

    The right says "Trans are messed up, physically, morally and psychologically. Why are we pandering to a minority? There should be laws to regulate the behavior of these oddballs, beyond what they do to themselves."

    Fair?

    Messed up "physically, morally and psychologically", oddballs.
    You not seeing the problem here!!!!


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    #4503
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Woke Hogan wrote: »
    “Both sides are bad” is a cod. “The Left” in this particular case are advocating the breaking of barriers for single mother, homosexual couples and “The Right” want to suppress that. In my view crypto-fascists have no right to civility.
    Nope. Not what I said at all. I said there's extremes on both sides that are toxic and bad people who use various pretenses to try and force their views on people. Nothing to do with "both sides being bad" or any other sub-par reductionism.


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    #4504
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    20Cent wrote: »
    SSM and abortion are only in the last five years hardly history.

    I've been bisexual for over two decades.. I'm well aware of the importance of SSM and what went before it.. and you're missing the point (considering what you wrote previously).
    On one side the worst that can happen is some "mean" tweets" and disagreement, on the other the worst that can happen is you can't get married, have to carry a child after rape. False equivalence saying they are the same.

    Huh? Well, yes, they are stupid equivalents. And I can't recall anyone making such a dumb statement. Care to show me where they did?
    Messed up "physically, morally and psychologically", oddballs.
    You not seeing the problem here!!!!

    You seem to be having a problem with context.


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    #4505
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Insofar that living their own lives does not require the (forced/unwilling) support of other people to exist.. or that their free life is not detrimental to other people who have no choice about it.

    Then don't support their lifestyle, but if you criticise their lifestyle (which has absolutely nothing to do with you)and then get offended when somebody calls you on it, playing the victim card, as the far right so often does, just does not fly.

    Please give me some examples of determinants you've been afflicted with in your own life due to everybody in society having equal rights.


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    #4506
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Then don't support their lifestyle, but if you criticise their lifestyle (which has absolutely nothing to do with you)and then get offended when somebody calls you on it, playing the victim card, as the far right so often does, just does not fly.

    Please give me some examples of determinants you've been afflicted with in your own life due to everybody in society having equal rights.


    So, I can't criticise the gender identity and trans activists who demand that I change my language use about gender and identity? Even though it's being forced on me without any consultation? Or I can? I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing.

    Sigh. Once more with the far right... It just keeps popping up.


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    #4507
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So, I can't criticise the gender identity and trans activists who demand that I change my language use about gender and identity? Even though it's being forced on me without any consultation? Or I can? I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing.

    Sigh. Once more with the far right... It just keeps popping up.


    What happens if you criticize someones gender identity?


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    #4508
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So, I can't criticise the gender identity and trans activists who demand that I change my language use about gender and identity? Even though it's being forced on me without any consultation? Or I can? I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing.

    Sigh. Once more with the far right... It just keeps popping up.

    Poor you, having to use a different 3 letter word to describe someone who has probably gone through a life of hardship and who is in a minority of people who are at far higher risk both in terms of physical and mental abuse from others and who are far more likely to self harm or take their own lives (and as a result are much more likely to have friends from that same group who have taken their own life) than you will ever be. Poor you, having to treat someone with a little bit of common courtesy, my heart bleeds for you.

    Yes, it keeps popping up on a thread about Jordan Peterson, I for one am shocked that the term "far right" keeps appearing....


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    #4509
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    20Cent wrote: »
    What happens if you criticize someones gender identity?

    sigh. Playing with sentences now, are we?
    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Poor you,

    You really want to start that BS?
    having to use a different 3 letter word to describe someone who has probably gone through a life of hardship and who is in a minority of people who are at far higher risk both in terms of physical and mental abuse from others and who are far more likely to self harm or take their own lives (and as a result are much more likely to have friends from that same group who have taken their own life) than you will ever be. Poor you, having to treat someone with a little bit of common courtesy, my heart bleeds for you.

    Yes, it keeps popping up on a thread about Jordan Peterson, I for one am shocked that the term "far right" keeps appearing....

    Like talking to a wall. I'm guessing you didn't read the previous few pages of posts at all. I'm kinda tired of repeating myself every few posts.

    You're shocked at "far right" appearing, when you're using it in your posts? Right. Okay. Enough said.


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    #4510
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    xckjoo wrote: »
    It's both to be honest. The extremes on the "left" and "right" shut down all difference of opinion with cries of discrimination and use of intimidation. There's a lot of sh1tty people in the world that just want to force people to think like them. The ideological side they sign up to if often irrelevant.

    You're correct.

    My point is that it's not the 1970s anymore. The Church and other proponents of traditional family values no longer wield the power and influence in Irish society that they once did. Those who "just want to force people to think like them" now exist predominantly on the politically correct left.

    Those who endorse traditional moral values now risk being branded racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic, and a whole host of other -ists and -phobics just for stating their beliefs. Tactics employed by politically correct authoritarians include social media mobbing, threatening people's employment status, or even trying to get them prosecuted for "hate."

    It's ridiculous to say that people are being "brave" by supporting feminist beliefs or promoting acceptance of homosexuality in today's Ireland. It was certainly the case in Ireland decades ago that anyone advocating such positions was sticking his or her neck out, but social attitudes have shifted dramatically since the 1980s. In recent years, overwhelming numbers of young people openly voted to legalize same-sex marriage and repeal the eighth amendment. There's no shame or stigma attached to advocating pro-LGBT or pro-choice views anymore; these views are now mainstream and standard.

    By contrast, No voters in these referendums were stigmatized as being homophobic or enemies of women. They were treated as reactionary pariahs. Therefore, it took much more bravery to openly defy the politically correct position than to advocate it.


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    #4511
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Deleted User wrote: »
    sigh. Playing with sentences now, are we?



    You really want to start that BS?



    Just asking what terrible thing happens if someone criticises another persons gender identity. This obsession with trans people is so weird. Live and let live let them on with it it's a fraction of 1% of the population. We change our language all the time depending on who we are talking to. Why is it an issue with trans people.


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    #4512
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    sigh. Playing with sentences now, are we?



    You really want to start that BS?



    Like talking to a wall. I'm guessing you didn't read the previous few pages of posts at all. I'm kinda tired of repeating myself every few posts.

    You're shocked at "far right" appearing, when you're using it in your posts? Right. Okay. Enough said.

    Yes I do. You don't want to be called out on being a transphobe then don't be transphobic. It's that simple.

    What did you think was going to happen in a thread about a far right agitator? Of course people are going to use that term, doesn't get more obvious than that.


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    #4513
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    20Cent wrote: »
    Just asking what terrible thing happens if someone criticises another persons gender identity. This obsession with trans people is so weird. Live and let live let them on with it it's a fraction of 1% of the population. We change our language all the time depending on who we are talking to. Why is it an issue with trans people.

    Because it's not based on the individual. If I meet an individual trans person who asks me to use their chosen pronoun, I have no problem with that. But as with boards and other areas in society, we are being told that we must apply it everywhere, and not solely with trans people. Anyone, it seems, can identify themselves as something other than their gender, and expect complete acceptance of that chosen gender.

    As you say, it is related to an extreme minority, of whom, most people are ever likely to have a social interaction with. Common decency should be followed with a trans individual being treated with respect, but where is the limit on that? Do we treat them completely as their preferred gender?

    This change is not simply about those people we meet personally. It has much larger sweeping changes in society, continuing into the 'rights' that trans have with their transformed gender. Discussion should be encouraged and not shut down, which I find common in these threads. Posters who support the changes tend to insult/demean those with concerns about the whole topic. I've never had any issues on a personal level with a trans person, and I don't expect that to change...


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    #4514
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Yes I do. You don't want to be called out on being a transphobe then don't be transphobic. It's that simple.

    Absolute horse****. Anyone who doesn't completely accept all trans related issues is a transphobe. That's the extent of your logic games. The use of "far right" in your post reinforces that.


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    #4515
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Yes I do. You don't want to be called out on being a transphobe then don't be transphobic. It's that simple.

    What did you think was going to happen in a thread about a far right agitator? Of course people are going to use that term, doesn't get more obvious than that.
    Immediately calling someone that doesn't agree with everything you believe "-phobic" is exactly the behavior people are trying to call attention to. If you disagree with their position try discussing it with them instead of trying to instantly cast them as a pariah.


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    #4516
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because it's not based on the individual. If I meet an individual trans person who asks me to use their chosen pronoun, I have no problem with that. But as with boards and other areas in society, we are being told that we must apply it everywhere, and not solely with trans people. Anyone, it seems, can identify themselves as something other than their gender, and expect complete acceptance of that chosen gender.

    As you say, it is related to an extreme minority, of whom, most people are ever likely to have a social interaction with. Common decency should be followed with a trans individual being treated with respect, but where is the limit on that? Do we treat them completely as their preferred gender?

    This change is not simply about those people we meet personally. It has much larger sweeping changes in society, continuing into the 'rights' that trans have with their transformed gender. Discussion should be encouraged and not shut down, which I find common in these threads. Posters who support the changes tend to insult/demean those with concerns about the whole topic. I've never had any issues on a personal level with a trans person, and I don't expect that to change...

    Which rights do you have a problem with?


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    #4517
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because it's not based on the individual. If I meet an individual trans person who asks me to use their chosen pronoun, I have no problem with that. But as with boards and other areas in society, we are being told that we must apply it everywhere, and not solely with trans people. Anyone, it seems, can identify themselves as something other than their gender, and expect complete acceptance of that chosen gender.

    As you say, it is related to an extreme minority, of whom, most people are ever likely to have a social interaction with. Common decency should be followed with a trans individual being treated with respect, but where is the limit on that? Do we treat them completely as their preferred gender?

    This change is not simply about those people we meet personally. It has much larger sweeping changes in society, continuing into the 'rights' that trans have with their transformed gender. Discussion should be encouraged and not shut down, which I find common in these threads. Posters who support the changes tend to insult/demean those with concerns about the whole topic. I've never had any issues on a personal level with a trans person, and I don't expect that to change...

    What examples have you encountered of people who have legally changed their identity to something other than a gender? For a topic you seem very passionate about I assume you have some personal experience of it.

    So, in summary, you'll toe the line of respect to somebody's face but then behind their back (or online) you'll argue that they should be treated as second class citizens and that there should be a limit on how much respect they are given, of course it should not be the same amount of respect that you expect to be given on a day to day basis right?


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    #4518
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Absolute horse****. Anyone who doesn't completely accept all trans related issues is a transphobe. That's the extent of your logic games. The use of "far right" in your post reinforces that.

    Anyone who insists that there should be a discussion on how much respect another person is treated with based on what gender they wish to be identified as is a transphobe. Any person who treats a trans person as a second class citizen is a transhpobe. Don't like it? Don't be a transphobe and treat everyone the same.


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    #4519
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Immediately calling someone that doesn't agree with everything you believe "-phobic" is exactly the behavior people are trying to call attention to. If you disagree with their position try discussing it with them instead of trying to instantly cast them as a pariah.

    What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your pariah and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's a pariah.


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    #4520
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Anyone who insists that there should be a discussion on how much respect another person is treated with based on what gender they wish to be identified as is a transphobe. Any person who treats a trans person as a second class citizen is a transhpobe. Don't like it? Don't be a transphobe and treat everyone the same.

    Ahh okay. I can now be comfortable throwing in the term "far left" now. Awesome!

    Thanks for showing just how unreasonable and intolerant your stance is. :D


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    #4521
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    20Cent wrote: »
    Just asking what terrible thing happens if someone criticises another persons gender identity. This obsession with trans people is so weird. Live and let live let them on with it it's a fraction of 1% of the population. We change our language all the time depending on who we are talking to. Why is it an issue with trans people.

    Language becomes an issue because compelling people to use "preferred pronouns" is the thin edge of the wedge. If I'm compelled to refer to a biological male who claims he's a women as "she," I'm obliged linguistically to recognize that person as female — which then weakens the case for objecting when "she" wants open access to women's bathrooms, changing rooms, athletic competitions, and domestic violence refuges. This is a state of affairs that many actual women don't want, and not just because they're "transphobic."


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    #4522
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Language becomes an issue because compelling people to use "preferred pronouns" is the thin edge of the wedge. If I'm compelled to refer to a biological male who claims he's a women as "she," I'm obliged linguistically to recognize that person as female — which then weakens the case for objecting when "she" wants open access to women's bathrooms, changing rooms, athletic competitions, and domestic violence refuges. This is a state of affairs that many actual women don't want, and not just because they're "transphobic."

    Are you compelled to use pronouns?
    Has there been some law passed about it?


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    #4523
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your pariah and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's a pariah.
    I'm not sure you quite understand what the word "pariah" means.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #4524
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ahh okay. I can now be comfortable throwing in the term "far left" now. Awesome!

    Thanks for showing just how unreasonable and intolerant your stance is. :D

    Sure work away, if far left means not having to debate whether everybody deserves basic human decency and respect then yep, I'm far left. If far left means not staring a person in the eye and pretending to be "OK" with them and then logging onto a forum to denigrate their lifestyle and argue in favour of revoking their rights, then baby I'm as far left as a person can be. Because the opposite of far left sounds cowardly.


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    #4525
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I'm not sure you quite understand what the word "pariah" means.

    Give me your definition.


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    #4526
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    As an aside; I don't get this whole American style Respect stuff. I certainly don't expect respect on a daily basis. I do expect, or rather hope for common courtesy, respect is something I earn. It's not an automatic expectation.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #4527
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your pariah and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's a pariah.
    Where did Klaz say stuff or act in a transphobic way? Genuinely curious a I didn't spot it.


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    #4528
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Wibbs wrote: »
    As an aside; I don't get this whole American style Respect stuff. I certainly don't expect respect on a daily basis. I do expect, or rather hope for common courtesy, respect is something I earn. It's not an automatic expectation.

    If you are at work you expect your employer not to demean and bully you?
    If you are out and about do you expect to be treated the same as everyone else?

    If not you have the right to object.


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    #4529
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Where did Klaz say stuff or act in a transphobic way? Genuinely curious a I didn't spot it.

    You may have missed the bit where he's decided that we should have to have a debate about whether we should respect transgender people. Essentially he views them as second class citizens, not worthy of the rights of any other members of society. Treating any minority group as lesser is not right.


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    #4530
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Give me your definition.
    Outcast. EG

    What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your outcast and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's an outcast.

    Doesn't make sense to me anyway, though I get your general gist.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #4531
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Sure work away, if far left means not having to debate whether everybody deserves basic human decency and respect then yep, I'm far left.

    I love how you expect to have a debate when you call them transphobic and a transphobe.
    If far left means not staring a person in the eye and pretending to be "OK" with them and then logging onto a forum to denigrate their lifestyle and argue in favour of revoking their rights, then baby I'm as far left as a person can be. Because the opposite of far left sounds cowardly.

    As for your examples, I would suggest that's more the case of being decent rather than simply far left... and there's nothing to suggest that I would be treating trans people in the opposite (negative) manner. Which is the whole point I guess. Dismissing/insulting other posters, even by indirect means, is usual with your type of attitude online.

    But, in any case, your intolerance, and lack of respect for others, means I have no interest in talking with you.


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