Jordan Peterson interview on C4

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

You may have missed the bit where he's decided that we should have to have a debate about whether we should respect transgender people. Essentially he views them as second class citizens, not worthy of the rights of any other members of society. Treating any minority group as lesser is not right.

Reinterpret much?

done and done.

Wibbs

xckjoo wrote: »

Where did Klaz say stuff or act in a transphobic way? Genuinely curious a I didn't spot it.

If you're not 100% fully on board, you're apparently a phobic type.

20Cent wrote: »

If you are at work you expect your employer not to demean and bully you?
If you are out and about do you expect to be treated the same as everyone else?

Like I said common courtesy. Respect suggests a higher regard based on experience or foreknowledge.

20Cent

Why be anti trans if you aren't transphobic?
If one has nothing against them then why have a problem with them?

LineOfBeauty

Wibbs wrote: »

Outcast. EG

What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your outcast and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's an outcast.

Doesn't make sense to me anyway, though I get your general gist.

I'd go along with someone on the outside whose viewed as unsavoury. His views are unsavoury, and in terms of Irush society luckly he seems to be in the minority.

LineOfBeauty

Deleted User wrote: »

Reinterpret much?

done and done.

So then be clear. Should a transgender person have all the rights that you have?
Should a transgender person be treated with respect and human decency without any caveats?

20Cent

Wibbs wrote: »

Like I said common courtesy. Respect suggests a higher regard based on experience or foreknowledge.

So you are ok with using a persons preferred pronouns but don't want to respect them?
Fine meet people everyday we don't respect or even like but manage to keep it to ourselves, just do that.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Why be anti trans if you aren't transphobic?
If one has nothing against them then why have a problem with them?

Tell me something. How have I been anti-trans?

I've no problem with someone being transgender. That's their choice. I'll respect them on an individual level, the same way as I'd respect a Mormon. My only issue is the push on gender pronoun to be used/accepted across the board, and the use of trans procedures on minors. Said it multiple times.

Transphobia would suggest that I hate or fear transgendered people. Which I don't, and there's no evidence in this thread that I have (without being twisted beyond what I wrote). Disagreement of issues that extend beyond a persons personal choices is not a phobia, or that I'm anti. It's a shame that you and others would be so intolerant to believe it does.

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

Tell me something. How have I been anti-trans?

I've no problem with someone being transgender. That's their choice. I'll respect them on an individual level, the same way as I'd respect a Mormon. My only issue is the push on gender pronoun to be used/accepted across the board, and the use of trans procedures on minors. Said it multiple times.

Transphobia would suggest that I hate or fear transgendered people. Which I don't, and there's no evidence in this thread that I have (without being twisted beyond what I wrote). Disagreement of issues that extend beyond a persons personal choices is not a phobia, or that I'm anti. It's a shame that you and others would be so intolerant to believe it does.

What form does this "he push on gender pronoun to be used/accepted across the board" take?
Have there been laws about it?

LineOfBeauty

Deleted User wrote: »

Tell me something. How have I been anti-trans?

I've no problem with someone being transgender. That's their choice. I'll respect them on an individual level, the same way as I'd respect a Mormon. My only issue is the push on gender pronoun to be used/accepted across the board, and the use of trans procedures on minors. Said it multiple times.

Transphobia would suggest that I hate or fear transgendered people. Which I don't, and there's no evidence in this thread that I have (without being twisted beyond what I wrote). Disagreement of issues that extend beyond a persons personal choices is not a phobia, or that I'm anti. It's a shame that you and others would be so intolerant to believe it does.

Then I don't understand why you can't simply answer yes or no to both of my questions. If you aren't transphobic, which is what you claim, then they are two cut and dry answers. Two one word answers.

sbsquarepants

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So then be clear. Should a transgender person have all the rights that you have?

Of course, do you think there's some rights they are missing?

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Should a transgender person be treated with respect and human decency without any caveats?

They should be treated the same as everyone else. I don't anyone here is arguing otherwise.

LineOfBeauty

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Of course, do you think there's some rights they are missing?



They should be treated the same as everyone else. I don't anyone here is arguing otherwise.

Great, then let him say that. It's not so difficult, it should be easy.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

What form does this "he push on gender pronoun to be used/accepted across the board" take?
Have there been laws about it?

I'm curious, does every answer to your questions lead to more questions?

You just seem to ask questions. No exploration of your own opinions, or a statement of your own beliefs on the matter.

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm curious, does every answer to your questions lead to more questions?

You just seem to ask questions. No exploration of your own opinions, or a statement of your own beliefs on the matter.

Just trying to understand your point.

My belief is that if someone is trans they deserve to be treated the same as anyone else. Simple.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Just trying to understand your point.

My belief is that if someone is trans they deserve to be treated the same as anyone else. Simple.

What about access to gender specific zones? Changing rooms, and the like? Or female only sports? Same rights as the targeted gender in every way?

In addition, Does that count only for those who have made the full physical transformation, or are those who've only changed partially to be treated the same?

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

What about access to gender specific zones? Changing rooms, and the like? Or female only sports? Same rights as the targeted gender in every way?

In addition, Does that count only for those who have made the full physical transformation, or are those who've only changed partially to be treated the same?

Yes changing rooms, toilets etc

Full, partial, want full want or to stay partial whatever they want.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Yes changing rooms, toilets etc

Full, partial, want full want or to stay partial whatever they want.

And the same for someone who identifies themselves as a different gender, but don't make any physical changes?

Wibbs

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I'd go along with someone on the outside whose viewed as unsavoury. His views are unsavoury, and in terms of Irush society luckly he seems to be in the minority.

So you want to bend the dictionary definitions too? Coolaboola.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So then be clear. Should a transgender person have all the rights that you have?

Yep.

Should a transgender person be treated with respect and human decency without any caveats?

Like anyone else in society it depends entirely on the individual. I'll extend common courtesy as my default, until that butts up against someone being a dickhead. Most people aren't dickheads, but some are. Like I've pointed out, to me(and the larger definition) respect is earned. EG that nutjob in Canada who tried to sue a business for not wanting to wax his "ladyballs", who has a menstruation fetish, a fetish he, and yes I said he, wants to discuss with underage girls, he can fcuk off.

20Cent wrote: »

So you are ok with using a persons preferred pronouns but don't want to respect them?
Fine meet people everyday we don't respect or even like but manage to keep it to ourselves, just do that.

We appear to be at cross purposes here. You appear to understand "respect" in the Oprah Winfrey self help participation medal sense, I don't. I prefer what it actually means and like I said it's not given automatically. Nor should it, because it demeans the term.

Gynoid

I will use pronouns face to face and be polite to people. I always am. I also recognise that transgenderism exists and people are entitled to dignity. There are some lovely trans people I follow on twitter.
But I do have a big problem with self ID trans people, especially trans identifying biological males, having access to single sex protected spaces eg rape crises refuges, female prisons, female sports, showers, hospital wards, etc. This makes me a transphobe apparently but I am prepared to wear the slur.
There was a case this week that happened in Cork University Hospital. A 17 year old girl immobilised and in a critical condition after a car crash had to endure her breasts and genitalia being fondled by a man on the ward she was placed in. She could not move to defend herself. An absolutely horrible thing to happen. The hospital has been criticised for placing a female with males in a vulnerable situation. It is because of incidences like this that single sex spaces should be maintained. It is not because transwoman are to be considered sex offenders, but they will sexually offend at the same rate as biological males which is higher than the rate of biological females. We are seeing this in prisons in the UK and the US. Plus self ID means anyone who is not trans, and also the portion of TIMs who are autogynophiliac, ie sexually stimulated by living as and being regarded as females, can take advantage when safeguarding is seriously diluted.
I do not mind being called transphobic by extremist idealogues for the moment. In the future some semblance of sense will be returned to single sex protections and I will not be called transphobic.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/judge-criticises-hospital-after-girl-sexually-assaulted-by-man-63-on-ward-1.4170837%3fmode=amp

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

And the same for someone who identifies themselves as a different gender, but don't make any physical changes?

Why not?

Wibbs

20Cent wrote: »

Why not?

Because too many appear to be taking the piss. Tends to be the more public attention seeking types and almost exclusively male to female.

20Cent

Wibbs wrote: »

Because too many appear to be taking the piss. Tends to be the more public attention seeking types and almost exclusively male to female.

How are they taking the piss?

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Why not?

That's a yes, then?

Okay. Good to know.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

Are you compelled to use pronouns?
Has there been some law passed about it?

I’ve mentioned this before in the thread but in England a few years ago, a woman was told by a judge during a court case to refer to her accused attacker as she and her. Think about that for a second. She was asked to accommodate her attacker (the person was convicted). As far as she was concerned her attacker being a biological male mattered as it was an assault and she also felt it amounted to making her lie under oath.

Wibbs

20Cent wrote: »

How are they taking the piss?

When you see a six foot odd bloke with a beard and full wedding tackle self describing as a "lesbian" and "trans" that's taking the piss.

This is madness..

sbsquarepants

Wibbs wrote: »

When you see a six foot odd bloke with a beard and full wedding tackle self describing as a "lesbian" and "trans" that's taking the piss.

It's getting to be like that south park episode where macho man Randy Savage identifies as a woman and then proceeds to kick seventy shades of shíte out of the other women competitors.

You can't just pulll a Shania Twain "Man, i feel like a woman" and hey presto you're a woman now and no one may even dare question it.

That's clearly mental scenario, yet it is being demanded by some people.

Gynoid

Wibbs wrote: »

When you see a six foot odd bloke with a beard and full wedding tackle self describing as a "lesbian" and "trans" that's taking the piss.

The LGB Alliance has splintered from Stonewall in the UK, because the Trans activists within Stonewall have been calling out Lesbians for excluding girldick from their sexual preferences. And when I say calling out I mean vigorously abusing.
And yet people on this thread will appear all mild mannered and wide eyed and oh so righteous and innocent saying why can you not just respect the poor trans, while their extremist companions elsewhere are literally trying to ram cock down ....okay, I will hold back....em, make lesbians fondle their mates dicks.

20Cent

Wibbs wrote: »

When you see a six foot odd bloke with a beard and full wedding tackle self describing as a "lesbian" and "trans" that's taking the piss.

Sounds like you think people who aren't trans will pretend to be trans.
That's a different issue.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

This is madness..

It kinda is alright. Then again we're living through a current trend(with a hint of fashion) towards subjective self identification trumping objective fact. QV Facebook's 50 odd "genders" and "identities". Of course for them and those like them this just makes their marketing profiling software more accurate, so they've hijacked the more nonsensical self identity minority politics of US college campuses to their end. So it's no wonder some are promoting it.

20Cent wrote: »

Sounds like you think people who aren't trans will pretend to be trans.
That's a different issue.

I don't give two hoots if he/she/zer is pretending or not, it's bloody ridiculous either way. Though if they're not pretending that's more one for mental health professionals. Then again too many of them seem to be on board with this daftness. Though it can be a branch of medicine that attracts more quackery at the fringes.

Wibbs

20Cent wrote: »

Sounds like you think people who aren't trans will pretend to be trans.
That's a different issue.

I don't give two hoots if he/she/zer is pretending or not, it's bloody ridiculous either way. Though if they're not pretending that's more one for mental health professionals. Then again too many of them seem to be on board with this daftness. Though it can be a branch of medicine that attracts more quackery at the fringes.