Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

Yes changing rooms, toilets etc

Full, partial, want full want or to stay partial whatever they want.

But what about when what transgender people want abuts the wants of others? I don’t know if any group in society should be given “whatever they want”. A want isn’t necessarily a need or a right.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

But what about when what transgender people want abuts the wants of others? I don’t know if any group in society should be given “whatever they want”. A want isn’t necessarily a need or a right.

Whatever they want refers to far how they transition.

How does a trans person being trans affect you?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

Whatever they want refers to far how they transition.

How does a trans person being trans affect you?

Well, did you see the court case example I posted about earlier? I’ll quote it:

I’ve mentioned this before in the thread but in England a few years ago, a woman was told by a judge during a court case to refer to her accused attacker as she and her. Think about that for a second. She was asked to accommodate her attacker (the person was convicted). As far as she was concerned her attacker being a biological male mattered as it was an assault and she also felt it amounted to making her lie under oath.

That woman wasn’t me but that doesn’t mean I don’t have to give a shit. And Ireland is not a million miles away from the UK, especially as we have self ID protections in place here. I think it hasn’t really been thought through. And how will it work with gendered languages?

As for things like single sex spaces. As a grown woman, it doesn’t really affect me. But I think back to 11 year old me who was deeply uncomfortable with her period starting and for whom the women’s bathroom was a bit of a haven if I was out and about in public. I think those spaces should remain separate.

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

Whatever they want refers to far how they transition.

How does a trans person being trans affect you?

How does it affect you? Will you be cavorting with transman's manly vaginas if gay and pretending that it is no different than a cock?

It is odd how much more often it is the females, ie lesbians, being asked to suck it up(!) But I so rarely hear about the gay men being told they have to get with the transmen's fannies.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, did you see the court case example I posted about earlier? I’ll quote it:



That woman wasn’t me but that doesn’t mean I don’t have to give a shit. And Ireland is not a million miles away from the UK, especially as we have self ID protections in place here. I think it hasn’t really been thought through. And how will it work with gendered languages?

As for things like single sex spaces. As a grown woman, it doesn’t really affect me. But I think back to 11 year old me who was deeply uncomfortable with her period starting and for whom the women’s bathroom was a bit of a haven if I was out and about in public. I think those spaces should remain separate.

So there is no law about having to use pronouns that's what I asked about.

What toilets and changing rooms should trans people use then?

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

How does it affect you? Will you be cavorting with transman's manly vaginas if gay and pretending that it is no different than a cock?

It is odd how much more often it is the females, ie lesbians, being asked to suck it up(!) But I so rarely hear about the gay men being told they have to get with the transmen's fannies.

Lesbians are being forced to have sex with trans people now?
When that happen.

Oh it hasn't so just making rubbish up.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

So there is no law about having to use pronouns that's what I asked about.

What toilets and changing rooms should trans people use then?

I don’t know. The default shouldn’t be women’s, that much I know.

The argument is that transwomen are in danger in men’s loos. But when women say “What about OUR safety?”, it’s handwaved away. Are loos unsafe or are they not? Which is it?

Akrasia

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

I don't think there's much praise owed to feminists and homosexuals who defy traditional family values. It's not the 1950s anymore. It takes more bravery nowadays to state publicly the belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman, or that a child needs a mother and father living under the same roof, than it does to call for abortion on demand or acceptance of gay marriage.

The question isnt really about how much bravery is involved, its about standing up to authority and defying 'traditional family values'

Akrasia

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I got 10%

I feel dirty now!

Questions are a bit bizarre to say the least, some of them are like something you'd be asked if you were applying to join ISIS!

yes, but bizzarely, a lot of people will give the answer you would expect from an ISIS supporter, and be proud of themselves for giving it.

The questions are looking for a specific type of attitude towards authority and conservativism, and also a specific way of thinking that is less nuanced and more likely to see things in a very black and white 'us vs them' mentality.

Wibbs

Akrasia wrote: »

The question isnt really about how much bravery is involved, its about standing up to authority and defying 'traditional family values'

You missed his point entirely.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

So there is no law about having to use pronouns that's what I asked about.

Yet.

Peterson became famous for standing up to such a proposed legal change, and laws rarely stay the same as they're originally intended, expanding over time to cover more. Once you open the door, who knows where it would lead to?

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

Lesbians are being forced to have sex with trans people now?
When that happen.

Oh it hasn't so just making rubbish up.

They are being forced to accept that transwomen ARE actual women and not to have transphobic genital preferences. So, yup.

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

They are being forced to accept that transwomen ARE actual women and not to have transphobic genital preferences. So, yup.

Not true at all.
No one forcing anyone to have sex with someone they don't want to thats called rape.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know. The default shouldn’t be women’s, that much I know.

The argument is that transwomen are in danger in men’s loos. But when women say “What about OUR safety?”, it’s handwaved away. Are loos unsafe or are they not? Which is it?

How is sharing a loo with a transwoman unsafe?

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Not true at all.
No one forcing anyone to have sex with someone they don't want to thats called rape.

No, you're right. They're not being forced to have sex, but they're being criticized as trans-phobic for not engaging in sex with one. So a lesbian is transphobic if she refuses to have sex with a Transgender person who identifies as female but still has a penis.

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

Not true at all.
No one forcing anyone to have sex with someone they don't want to thats called rape.

You tell your stories to the many lesbians who have left Stonewall because of the abuse they are getting, love.

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

No, you're right. They're not being forced to have sex, but they're being criticized as trans-phobic for not engaging in sex with one. So a lesbian is transphobic if she refuses to have sex with a Transgender person who identifies as female but still has a penis.

Are they?
Who is criticizing them?

Bet it's one account of twitter or something.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

How is sharing a loo with a transwoman unsafe?

How is a transwoman using the men’s loo unsafe?

And as I already outlined, it’s not even just about safety but comfort. Having a haven. As a preteen and teen, that really mattered to me personally.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

How is a transwoman using the men’s loo unsafe?

And as I already outlined, it’s not even just about safety but comfort. Having a haven. As a preteen and teen, that really mattered to me personally.

Yeah comfort.
Where are they supposed to go?

Never said a transwoman using the mens is unsafe.
I'd say the trans person would prefer the bathroom of their gender though.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Are they?
Who is criticizing them?

Bet it's one account of twitter or something.

Bet? Okay. You're on!

Do some google searches. You'll find plenty of articles referring to it. It seems like you don't pay attention to how the transgender movement has been evolving over the last few years.

Take a look at Cotton Ceiling:

https://terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

or an article (You really should read the whole article):

"Anyway the key point is this: some transwomen have a penis and no intention of getting rid of it. Some of those transwomen describe themselves as lesbians, by which they mean they are sexually attracted to women. I make no comment on any of that beyond reporting that this presents a problem for those lesbians who were born female, who say they’re not sexually aroused by people with penises, and who don’t want to have sex with those people. Is that a reasonable position? Is it respectable to state that your sexual preferences and choice of sexual partner depends, at least in part, on the potential partners’ genitalia?

Some transgender women don’t think so. They suggest that female-born lesbians who decline to sleep with transwomen who have a penis are guilty of bigotry or transphobia. Some of them express that argument in very blunt terms. (For more about what some call the “cotton ceiling” that excludes transwomen with penises from sex with lesbians, see this)"

What do I win?

nkl12xtw5goz70

Akrasia wrote: »

The question isnt really about how much bravery is involved, its about standing up to authority and defying 'traditional family values'

Standing up to what authority? Who is supporting traditional family values in Ireland these days, besides an enfeebled and increasingly insignificant Catholic Church?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

Yeah comfort.
Where are they supposed to go?

Never said a transwoman using the mens is unsafe.
I'd say the trans person would prefer the bathroom of their gender though.

And there we see the abutting against the wants of others. And then it comes down to deciding whose wants are more important here. What do you think yourself?

Oh and many people do argue that men’s loos are unsafe for transwomen. Then women’s worries in that regard should then also be taken seriously. People can’t have it both ways.

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

Bet? Okay. You're on!

Do some google searches. You'll find plenty of articles referring to it. It seems like you don't pay attention to how the transgender movement has been evolving over the last few years.

Take a look at Cotton Ceiling:

https://terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

or an article (You really should read the whole article):

"Anyway the key point is this: some transwomen have a penis and no intention of getting rid of it. Some of those transwomen describe themselves as lesbians, by which they mean they are sexually attracted to women. I make no comment on any of that beyond reporting that this presents a problem for those lesbians who were born female, who say they’re not sexually aroused by people with penises, and who don’t want to have sex with those people. Is that a reasonable position? Is it respectable to state that your sexual preferences and choice of sexual partner depends, at least in part, on the potential partners’ genitalia?

Some transgender women don’t think so. They suggest that female-born lesbians who decline to sleep with transwomen who have a penis are guilty of bigotry or transphobia. Some of them express that argument in very blunt terms. (For more about what some call the “cotton ceiling” that excludes transwomen with penises from sex with lesbians, see this)"

What do I win?

So a fraction of a fraction of people say something.
A far cry from lesbians being forced to have sex with transwomen.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

So a fraction of a fraction of people say something.
A far cry from lesbians being forced to have sex with transwomen.

Seriously? You're really going to dismiss what I provided (considering the speed of your response, I'm highly doubtful that you read the whole article or did any of your own google searches for research)

Also, I didn't say that lesbians were being forced to have sex with trans people.

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

So a fraction of a fraction of people say something.
A far cry from lesbians being forced to have sex with transwomen.

You really are an expert in twisting people's words.

Nobody has said that lesbians are "being forced to have sex" with trans women.

Rather, lesbians who express a preference for sex with natural-born women and/or say that they don't want to have sex with someone who has a penis are now being derided as transphobic.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And there we see the abutting against the wants of others. And then it comes down to deciding whose wants are more important here. What do you think yourself?

Oh and many people do argue that men’s loos are unsafe for transwomen. Then women’s worries in that regard should then also be taken seriously. People can’t have it both ways.

I think all toilets/changing rooms should be unisex and have cubicles.

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

You really are an expert in twisting people's words.

Nobody has said that lesbians are "being forced to have sex" with trans women.

Rather, lesbians who express a preference for sex with natural-born women and/or say that they don't want to have sex with someone who has a penis are now being derided as transphobic.

Derided by who?

Two people on twitter and a blogger.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

I think all toilets/changing rooms should be unisex and have cubicles.

The cubicles need to be sealed off from each other and self-contained. If that was how unisex bathrooms existed, that would be great. Is it likely that many establishments will do that kind of renovations? I’m very doubtful.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Derided by who?

Two people on twitter and a blogger.

I'm curious (again), if I was to do the work for you, and post up a dozen references, would that be enough? I'm getting the feeling that it wouldn't.

The reasons the numbers are going to be low is because transgendered people are still an extreme minority. It stands to reason that the numbers of incidents would be low.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

"Anyway the key point is this: some transwomen have a penis and no intention of getting rid of it. Some of those transwomen describe themselves as lesbians, by which they mean they are sexually attracted to women. I make no comment on any of that beyond reporting that this presents a problem for those lesbians who were born female, who say they’re not sexually aroused by people with penises, and who don’t want to have sex with those people. Is that a reasonable position? Is it respectable to state that your sexual preferences and choice of sexual partner depends, at least in part, on the potential partners’ genitalia?

Some transgender women don’t think so. They suggest that female-born lesbians who decline to sleep with transwomen who have a penis are guilty of bigotry or transphobia. Some of them express that argument in very blunt terms. (For more about what some call the “cotton ceiling” that excludes transwomen with penises from sex with lesbians, see this)"

Those words underlined show how effing insane this nonsense has truly become. Women with penises. FFS. At this stage I really don't give a tuppence ha'penny if I'm seen as "transphobic" by some. I prefer reality to utter bloody nonsense.