Jordan Peterson interview on C4

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Could you just remind?
Have gone down a rabbit hole here.

Nope. I don't see the point of me doing it for you (which you'll likely dismiss with a one liner). Do it yourself.

Brian?

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

You're correct.

My point is that it's not the 1970s anymore. The Church and other proponents of traditional family values no longer wield the power and influence in Irish society that they once did. Those who "just want to force people to think like them" now exist predominantly on the politically correct left.

Those who endorse traditional moral values now risk being branded racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic, and a whole host of other -ists and -phobics just for stating their beliefs. Tactics employed by politically correct authoritarians include social media mobbing, threatening people's employment status, or even trying to get them prosecuted for "hate."

It's ridiculous to say that people are being "brave" by supporting feminist beliefs or promoting acceptance of homosexuality in today's Ireland. It was certainly the case in Ireland decades ago that anyone advocating such positions was sticking his or her neck out, but social attitudes have shifted dramatically since the 1980s. In recent years, overwhelming numbers of young people openly voted to legalize same-sex marriage and repeal the eighth amendment. There's no shame or stigma attached to advocating pro-LGBT or pro-choice views anymore; these views are now mainstream and standard.

By contrast, No voters in these referendums were stigmatized as being homophobic or enemies of women. They were treated as reactionary pariahs. Therefore, it took much more bravery to openly defy the politically correct position than to advocate it.

Essentially I think you’re right. It does take bravery to be outspokenly intolerant and a bigot.

But bravery in itself isn’t worthy of praise.

20Cent

xckjoo wrote: »

Same place as in this thread. Nowhere at all....
You're the only one that has brought sex into this.

I didn't bring it up.
Others are making the argument that if you don't want sex with someone trans then you are transphobic.

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

Ok.
So where did pride say they have to have sex with transwomen?

They didn't.

Do you think trans people should be excluded from Pride?

Lesbians who said "I won't have sex with trans women" were derided by London Pride as hateful transphobic bigots, analogous to how a white woman who said "I won't have sex with black men" would be derided as a hateful racist bigot.

Ideology has replaced common sense. In the minds of trans activists, a biological male who has identified as a woman since last Tuesday is as much a woman as someone who was born and raised female. In their view, if you identify as female, you are female — no ifs, ands, or buts — and anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

This is what these lesbians are up against. And they are not helped by this kind of willful twisting and obfuscation.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

Essentially I think you’re right. It does take bravery to be outspokenly intolerant and a bigot.

I can pretty much guarantee that in forty years time many of the positions you hold so dear will be considered outspoken, even "intolerant".

xckjoo

20Cent wrote: »

I didn't bring it up.
Others are making the argument that if you don't want sex with someone trans then you are transphobic.

Feel free to quote where you saw this but I went back through the thread and the first person I found mentioning it was you.

Here's your post to save you time:

20Cent wrote: »

Lesbians are being forced to have sex with trans people now?
When that happen.

Oh it hasn't so just making rubbish up.

It was in response to some weird rant by someone else, but they didn't state anything like the belief that anybody is being forced to have sex with anyone. Perhaps you jumped the gun slightly?

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Lesbians who said "I won't have sex with trans women" were derided by London Pride as hateful transphobic bigots, analogous to how a white woman who said "I won't have sex with black men" would be derided as a hateful racist bigot.

Ideology has replaced common sense. In the minds of trans activists, a biological male who has identified as a woman since last Tuesday is as much a woman as someone who was born and raised female. In their view, if you identify as female, you are female — no ifs, ands, or buts — and anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

This is what these lesbians are up against. And they are not helped by this kind of willful twisting and obfuscation.

They don't acknowledge transwomen as women.
Your imagination turned that into having sex with them.

20Cent

xckjoo wrote: »

Feel free to quote where you saw this but I went back through the thread and the first person I found mentioning it was you.

Here's your post to save you time:

It was in response to some weird rant by someone else, but they didn't state anything like the belief that anybody is being forced to have sex with anyone. Perhaps you jumped the gun slightly?

This started it.



Originally Posted by Gynoid View Post
How does it affect you? Will you be cavorting with transman's manly vaginas if gay and pretending that it is no different than a cock?

It is odd how much more often it is the females, ie lesbians, being asked to suck it up(!) But I so rarely hear about the gay men being told they have to get with the transmen's fannies.

LineOfBeauty

The amount of whatabboutery in this thread is ridiculous. Also whenever transgender comes up as an issue (which is a hell of a lot more than the percentage of the population that is actually trans) the argument will always be pushed to the fringes. "what about ladies changing rooms/toilets?" "what about tall hairy men who wake up one day and say I'm a woman and that's it" "what about lesbians who wont sleep with trans people?" Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

The amount of whatabboutery in this thread is ridiculous. Also whenever transgender comes up as an issue (which is a hell of a lot more than the percentage of the population that is actually trans) the argument will always be pushed to the fringes. "what about ladies changing rooms/toilets?" "what about tall hairy men who wake up one day and say I'm a woman and that's it" "what about lesbians who wont sleep with trans people?" Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.

That’s not a fringe issue. Trying to cow people by casting them as bigots worked for a while. Thankfully, more and more people are speaking out now from different groups in society.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s not a fringe issue.

I'd say only the extremely insecure or permanently angry consider it anything other than a fringe issue.

20Cent

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s not a fringe issue.

It is a fringe issue.
Less than a fraction of 1% of the population.
Being in a bathroom or changing room at the same time as a trans person is very unlikely. Even if you were would you even notice.
And if you did notice so feckin what.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I'd say only the extremely insecure or permanently angry consider it anything other than a fringe issue.

I don’t consider it a fringe issue. I... guess I’m extremely insecure or permanently angry then.

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

As an aside; I don't get this whole American style Respect stuff. I certainly don't expect respect on a daily basis. I do expect, or rather hope for common courtesy, respect is something I earn. It's not an automatic expectation.

I actually agree with that.

But I believe calling someone by their preferred pronoun is common courtesy.

LineOfBeauty

20Cent wrote: »

It is a fringe issue.
Less than a fraction of 1% of the population.
Being in a bathroom or changing room at the same time as a trans person is very unlikely. Even if you were would you even notice.
And if you did notice so feckin what.

I'd certainly assume more people of the opposite gender use the wrong bathroom (accidentally or willingly) than trans people would use the bathroom, where's the big drive to stop that? Oh, because it's not a tiny minority group that makes you feel insecure about yourself it's not worth pursuing.

nkl12xtw5goz70

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.

Nonsense.

A biological male can take as many hormones, undergo as much surgery, or file as many lawsuits as he wants — but he will never be an actual woman. That's the immutable reality of gender.

Natural-born women can tell the difference, and many don't want biological males in their bathrooms and changing rooms. Lesbians can tell the difference, and don't want biological males as sexual partners. Female athletes can tell the difference, and don't want biological males punching them in the face.

This is not "bigotry." It's simply pointing out the fallacy of the social constructivist stance. Identifying as female does not make someone an actual woman, no matter how many Judith Butler books one reads.

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

I can pretty much guarantee that in forty years time many of the positions you hold so dear will be considered outspoken, even "intolerant".

What positions? I have a feeling you’re projecting.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t consider it a fringe issue. I... guess I’m extremely insecure or permanently angry then.

I guess so yes. Though based on our previous interactions on similar threads I'd have already subscribed to that theory.

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Nonsense.

A biological male can take as many hormones, undergo as much surgery, or file as many lawsuits as he wants — but he will never be an actual woman. That's the immutable reality of gender.

Natural-born women can tell the difference, and many don't want biological males in their bathrooms and changing rooms. Lesbians can tell the difference, and don't want biological males as sexual partners. Female athletes can tell the difference, and don't want biological males punching them in the face.

This is not "bigotry." It's simply pointing out the fallacy of the social constructivist stance. Identifying as female does not make someone an actual woman, no matter how many Judith Butler books one reads.

Where do you think trans people should go to the bathroom or change?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Brian? wrote: »

I actually agree with that.

But I believe calling someone by their preferred pronoun is common courtesy.

Was it was courteous to ask a woman giving her account of her attack in court to refer to her biologically male attacker by the preferred pronouns? I don’t that showed much courtesy towards the victim (the accused was convicted). To her, the biological sex of her attacker was important as the attack was likely more harmful because of that. This might be an isolated incident. But that doesn’t matter to the victim, does it?

Brian?

20Cent wrote: »

Where do you think trans people should go to the bathroom or change?

It’s funny, I think people should use whatever jacks they want. Somehow this is controversial.

LineOfBeauty

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Nonsense.

A biological male can take as many hormones, undergo as much surgery, or file as many lawsuits as he wants — but he will never be an actual woman. That's the immutable reality of gender.

Natural-born women can tell the difference, and many don't want biological males in their bathrooms and changing rooms. Lesbians can tell the difference, and don't want biological males as sexual partners. Female athletes can tell the difference, and don't want biological males punching them in the face.

This is not "bigotry." It's simply pointing out the fallacy of the social constructivist stance. Identifying as female does not make someone an actual woman, no matter how many Judith Butler books one reads.

That depends entirely on your definition of women and I think you may have managed to speak for so many sections of society who probably don't want you as a mouthpiece. As a male, I have no problem with a trans person in the same bathroom/locker room as myself. I suspect your anti trans lesbians are a minority of the lesbian community. Are you a female athlete? What percentage of female athletes have spoken out against trans athletes? So, please put your sweeping statements for sections of society that you absolutely don't represent back in your box.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I guess so yes. Though based on our previous interactions on similar threads I'd have already subscribed to that theory.

I actually don’t recall having much encounter with you at all on boards. I know something about the personalities of some boardsies. I can’t say I know anything about you. What threads?

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Was it was courteous to ask a woman giving her account of her attack in court to refer to her biologically male attacker by the preferred pronouns? I don’t that showed much courtesy towards the victim (the accused was convicted). To her, the biological sex of her attacker was important as the attack was likely more harmful because of that. This might be an isolated incident. But that doesn’t matter to the victim, does it?

And maybe spreading hate online towards Transgender people contributes to how society at large feels about that group and contributes to a vastly higher percentage of physical and mental attacks they have to deal with every day of their lives. Maybe you should try putting yourself in their shoes. Maybe a bit of humanity wouldn't go astray.

Brian?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Was it was courteous to ask a woman giving her account of her attack in court to refer to her biologically male attacker by the preferred pronouns? I don’t that showed much courtesy towards the victim (the accused was convicted). To her, the biological sex of her attacker was important as the attack was likely more harmful because of that. This might be an isolated incident. But that doesn’t matter to the victim, does it?

It wasn’t courteous, no. It should not have happened.

I’ll be pretty clear here. I don’t think anyone should be compelled to call anyone anything. Compelled speech is always wrong. People should never face legal punishment for dead naming trans people.

But, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to do it. It’s plain rude to do it when you know well you’re being rude.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I actually don’t recall having much encounter with you at all on boards. I know something about the personalities of some boardsies. I can’t say I know anything about you. What threads?

You're name is odd so I remember some, not overly bothered to go back and read which ones but I'm pretty confident it was against about transgender people.

Call Me Jimmy

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

That depends entirely on your definition of women and I think you may have managed to speak for so many sections of society who probably don't want you as a mouthpiece. As a male, I have no problem with a trans person in the same bathroom/locker room as myself. I suspect your anti trans lesbians are a minority of the lesbian community. Are you a female athlete? What percentage of female athletes have spoken out against trans athletes? So, please put your sweeping statements for sections of society that you absolutely don't represent back in your box.

Are you, Brian and 20RulesForRadicals trans? How can any of you have a valid opinion on trans issues if not?
And yes, female athletes (some very famous and previously loved) have begun to cop on to what happens when you have to lie about biology so an not to get your reputation besmirched.

In fact you should know how dumb a move that is to talk about that. Read the book again.

nkl12xtw5goz70

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

As a male, I have no problem with a trans person in the same bathroom/locker room as myself.

Good for you. As the father of four young daughters who like to go swimming with their mother, I do have a problem with a biological male displaying "her" penis to my children in the changing room under the guise of identifying as female.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

It is a fringe issue.
Less than a fraction of 1% of the population.
Being in a bathroom or changing room at the same time as a trans person is very unlikely. Even if you were would you even notice.
And if you did notice so feckin what.

If 11 year old menstruating me ran into a biological male into a public restroom, I’d have been deeply uncomfortable. The toilets were somewhat of a haven. I struggled a lot with that premature change. And it’s not actually that rare to begin puberty so young. Should that discomfort be handwaved away? I don’t see why transwomen using the women’s loos being rare should matter. To the person experiencing it, how rarely it happens makes little difference.

xckjoo

20Cent wrote: »

This started it.



Originally Posted by Gynoid View Post
How does it affect you? Will you be cavorting with transman's manly vaginas if gay and pretending that it is no different than a cock?

It is odd how much more often it is the females, ie lesbians, being asked to suck it up(!) But I so rarely hear about the gay men being told they have to get with the transmen's fannies.

Ya but that doesn't say anything about lesbians being forced to have sex with anyone. It is a weird rant, I'll give you that and I'm not entirely sure what they were getting at, but you've spent the last couple of pages accusing everyone of saying lesbians are being forced to have sex and nobody has actually said it.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

The amount of whatabboutery in this thread is ridiculous. Also whenever transgender comes up as an issue (which is a hell of a lot more than the percentage of the population that is actually trans) the argument will always be pushed to the fringes. "what about ladies changing rooms/toilets?" "what about tall hairy men who wake up one day and say I'm a woman and that's it" "what about lesbians who wont sleep with trans people?" Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.

No it's details! That's what make up the majority of difficulties in everything in life. You can't just dismiss it as irrelevant and call anyone that brings it up as transphobic. These things have very real implications in life; from building design, to sporting rules, to how to extend common courtesy to people.

I'm sure there are people here that wouldn't have much time for trans people, but so far most of the discussion has been demoaning the fact that it's impossible to discuss these very real (and unavoidable) issues without being called a bigot and transphobic. You haven't even let the bigots get far enough to show their true colours, just jumping on anyone that raises an issue and try to reduce them to evil people.