Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Brian?

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Odd, I'd say on a regular basis I go to one (and used to go to another) that was mixed. Even one I used to go to weekly in a different county were fine with a parent of another sex accompanying their kid into the changing room. Maybe I've just stumbled onto some oddly progressive, common sense leisure centre's in Ireland.

The leisure centre changing areas of 2020 are the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah.

LineOfBeauty

Penn wrote: »

And that's always the issue everyone ignores when it comes to the toilet debate; if people should use the toilets based on their genitals or what gender they are biologically, trans men (with facial hair, short hair, no obvious breast, mens clothes) would have to use the women's toilets/changing rooms. So for those thinking sexual predators might dress up as women to get access to women's toilets if trans women are allowed to use them, sexual predators wouldn't even need to dress as women. They could just claim to be trans men. And if trans men are to use the women's toilets, then girls/women might not recognise that they may be in danger until it's too late, because they see a masculine person walk in and think "Must be a trans man..."

It should also be factored in to the discussion and lets take the 11 year old in the changing room as an example; what is the likelihood that she'd be in the changing room and the only other person in there is a trans woman? That there'd be no other women in there at all?

So what then? Only biological women use women's facilities, and men, trans men and trans women all use the mens?

I think it's important to note the simple reality that trans women already do use the women's facilities, most likely completely undetected. They go in, they use the facilities, keeping themselves to themselves, and they leave. They don't flash their genitalia around (which I'm told unlike those films I like tends not to happen with a room full of cisgender women either), they try not to make women feel uncomfortable, and they just go about their business. It already happens, it's not a new phenomena. The onus is on trans women to use the facilities correctly and not infringe on anyone else's comfort or safety, and the vast, vast majority do.

Whereas you have old blokes in mens changing rooms using the hairdryer on their balls right beside the sink. And that's a far bigger crime which has nothing to do with gender.

Who are these sexual predators going to all this bother to attack women? Surely going in (loosely) dressed as a female would only heighten suspicion around the area while they are in there, no? If you are so concerned about sexual assault, maybe bars (where most public sexual assaults take place) should be divided based on gender? Maybe a man who is clearly pretending to be trans trying something in a ladies bathroom would be really dumb on his part. Maybe these silly hypotheticals are only ever conjured up by people who inherently hate transgender people.

Penn

Brian? wrote: »

I gave my balls the hairdryer treatment once out of curiosity. I’d read about it so many times on boards I had to. Should I be locked up?

Yes. People don't talk about it on Boards as a positive!

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know the answer. How can I when I don’t have statistics? You don’t have them either. How can you know the answer?

I can pretty confidently say that transwomen would almost always be much stronger than natal women physically. So transwomen getting attacked doesn’t negate transwomen attacking women, however rare it might be.

However rare it might be, very rare it seems. I think we can safely say trans people are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked than to attack someone. You know it and I know it. That's not even to talk about how a culture of fear leads to massive increases in likelyhood to self-harm or commit suicide. That's a culture of hate that any decent person should want to eradicate.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

What positions?

The reality of societies throughout history shows that today's immutable truth is tomorrows heresy. About the only constant one can be sure of is that most of what we know and hold dear today is likely wrong, or in serious need of updating down the line.

I have a feeling you’re projecting.

Observational aside: What the hell is it with some, especially "progressives" that they regularly fall back on this projection bollocks in debates? It's lazy and not a little stupid. Though maybe I'm projecting again. :rolleyes:

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Odd, I'd say on a regular basis I go to one (and used to go to another) that was mixed. Even one I used to go to weekly in a different county were fine with a parent of another sex accompanying their kid into the changing room. Maybe I've just stumbled onto some oddly progressive, common sense leisure centre's in Ireland.

That’s different. Little boys are brought into female changing rooms and toilets by their mothers all the time. Nobody bats an eyelid at that. I can’t speak for male facilities but maybe people are grand with fathers bringing their daughter in with them to the men’s facilities too. Please use your common sense here. People bring their small children with them because they weigh it up and it’s considered safer than letting them off by themselves as they’re too young for that.

LineOfBeauty

Brian? wrote: »

The leisure centre changing areas of 2020 are the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah.

I'm genuinely interested in what experiences these people are having in their changing rooms that I am not, do I not stay in there long enough?

Wibbs

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I can pretty confidently say that transwomen would almost always be much stronger than natal women physically.

Why are we pussyfooting around this newspeak ODB? "Natal women(or men)"? How about just women and men. Mad notion I grant you.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

However rare it might be, very rare it seems. I think we can safely say trans people are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked than to attack someone. You know it and I know it. That's not even to talk about how a culture of fear leads to massive increases in likelyhood to self-harm or commit suicide. That's a culture of hate that any decent person should want to eradicate.

No, we can’t say that. Men are far more likely to commit violent crimes and transwomen are biologically male.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s different. Little boys are brought into female changing rooms and toilets by their mothers all the time. Nobody bats an eyelid at that. I can’t speak for male facilities but maybe people are grand with fathers bringing their daughter in with them to the men’s facilities too. Please use your common sense here.

My common sense? You are on this thread telling people that a big bloke with a wig is gonna go on a sex crazed rampage in womens bathrooms because of equal rights and that dressing rooms are hotbeds for flashers dressing up as women to scar the innocent minds of your children. All the while going on about a case of a trans person attacking a lady when trans people are among the most vulnerable in our society. That is a lesson from me to you in common sense.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Wibbs wrote: »

Why are we pussyfooting around this newspeak ODB? "Natal women(or men)"? How about just women and men. Mad notion I grant you.

It’s better than saying cis.

Penn

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Who are these sexual predators going to all this bother to attack women? Surely going in (loosely) dressed as a female would only heighten suspicion around the area while they are in there, no? If you are so concerned about sexual assault, maybe bars (where most public sexual assaults take place) should be divided based on gender? Maybe a man who is clearly pretending to be trans trying something in a ladies bathroom would be really dumb on his part. Maybe these silly hypotheticals are only ever conjured up by people who inherently hate transgender people.

I agree entirely, and that's my point. The biggest argument they regularly throw up regarding protecting women/girls in public bathrooms from predators who would dress as a woman is so inherently flawed that it's just nonsense. As if the only thing currently stopping such predators from doing it is they respect the common courtesy that the toilets are for biological women only. And completely ignoring that the majority of trans women already use women's toilets without incident.

If a sexual predator wanted to attack a woman in a public toilet or changing room, they'd have to make sure they were unlikely to be interrupted, make sure they weren't seen, and make sure they didn't stand out. In that regard, the laws regarding whether or not trans women should be allowed to use women's toilets are completely irrelevant and would neither stop such an attack nor facilitate it.

It's using the premise of "protecting girls and women from sexual assault" as a mask for standing against trans rights.

Gynoid

My point in my so called "rants" is that the day you heterosexual male trans allies are open to, nay actually having sex with male bodied transwomen, and you homosexual male trans allies are open to, nay actually HAVING sex with female bodied trans men is the day I will say fair fcuks to ye, ye walk the talk. Until then I will presume that some people - a lot of them men - are telling women that they are bigots and phobic because thet will not accept the creed that Transwomen ARE women.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

No, we can’t say that. Men are far more likely to commit violent crimes and transwomen are biologically male.

So, according to you, transgender people don't exist? Or shouldn't be recognised?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

My common sense?You are on this thread telling people that a big bloke with a wig is gonna go on a sex crazed rampage in womens bathrooms because of equal rights and that dressing rooms are hotbeds for flashers dressing up as women to scar the innocent minds of your children. All the while going on about a case of a trans person attacking a lady when trans people are among the most vulnerable in our society. That is a lesson from me to you in common sense.

Sigh. This is why more and more people are becoming alienated. Actually, you know what? Carry on in this vein. You are doing transgender people no favours here.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So, according to you, transgender people don't exist? Or shouldn't be recognised?

Lol, wut? I’m saying that they retain most of the physical advantages of being biologically male. Why wouldn’t they?

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

The reality of societies throughout history shows that today's immutable truth is tomorrows heresy. About the only constant one can be sure of is that most of what we know and hold dear today is likely wrong, or in serious need of updating down the line.

What’s considered “common decency”doesn't really change though. Which is the only real position I hold. Which is why I asked “what positions”

Observational aside: What the hell is it with some, especially "progressives" that they regularly fall back on this projection bollocks in debates? It's lazy and not a little stupid. Though maybe I'm projecting again. :rolleyes:

I didn’t think we were having a debate. We’d actually agreed.

What I meant was that you were projecting beliefs/positions on to me that I may not hold. Because I am indeed progressively minded, it happens all the time. So I was wondering what you meant.

I’d appreciate an apology for accusing me of being lazy and stupid when I merely asked for clarification.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Sigh. This is why more and more people are becoming alienated. Actually, you know what? Carry on in this vein. You are doing transgender people no favours here.

Because when you dress it down your claims about transgender people let loose in toilets/changing rooms is utterly ludicrous and is a very clear dog whistle of transphobia?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Because when you dress it down your claims about transgender people let loose in toilets/changing rooms is utterly ludicrous and is a very clear dog whistle of transphobia?

And there it is.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Sigh. This is why more and more people are becoming alienated. Actually, you know what? Carry on in this vein. You are doing transgender people no favours here.



Lol, wut? I’m saying that they retain most of the physical advantages of being biologically male. Why wouldn’t they?

So are you saying that things like homophobic or transphobic assault isn't a thing because they are attacking people who are "biologically male." Is that what you're saying?

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And there it is.

I've been saying your message is transphobic for like 6 pages of this thread. There it was a lot time ago.

Call Me Jimmy

Wibbs wrote: »

The reality of societies throughout history shows that today's immutable truth is tomorrows heresy. About the only constant one can be sure of is that most of what we know and hold dear today is likely wrong, or in serious need of updating down the line. Observational aside: What the hell is it with some, especially "progressives" that they regularly fall back on this projection bollocks in debates? It's lazy and not a little stupid. Though maybe I'm projecting again. :rolleyes:

It's intentional, it's a tactic. Just read a couple of posts, in almost every reply there is an attack (overt or implied) on the character of the person they disagree with. Note how rarely it is the other way around. Also by the time you get a reply, your lucky if your view isn't distorted out of all recognition and you haven't been deemed an angry hateful person. In fact each one of your posts probably qualify as Non Crime Hate Incidents.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So are you saying that things like homophobic or transphobic assault isn't a thing because they are attacking people who are "biologically male." Is that what you're saying?

Not at all. Firstly, of course transphobic and homophobic take place.

What I’m saying is this: men commit violent crime way more than women. If a man becomes a transgender woman, that doesn’t suddenly remove those biologically male characteristics that cause men to commit violent crime far more than women. Women opposed to trangender women using sex-segregated facilities don’t think transgender women will be more violent than men. They think they’ll be on a par with men.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Not at all. Firstly, of course transphobic and homophobic take place.

What I’m saying is this: men commit violent crime way more than women. If a man becomes a transgender woman, that doesn’t suddenly remove those biologically male characteristics that cause men to commit violent crime far more than women. Women opposed to trangender women using sex-segregated facilities don’t think transgender women will be more violent than men. They think they’ll be on a par with men.

Are you making an anti men argument? And isn't it very simple in this hypothetical situation you've created to simply divide your men into two groups (trans men and non trans men) and then see which group has committed more crimes against women on average? Wait, what am I talking about? Of course that's possible to do, and of course you already know the answer, just like I do.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Are you making an anti men argument? And isn't it very simple in this hypothetical situation you've created to simply divide your men into two groups (trans men and non trans men) and then see which group has committed more crimes against women on average? Wait, what am I talking about? Of course that's possible to do, and of course you already know the answer, just like I do.

If saying that men commit violent crime way more than women is anti-men then... yeah?

LineOfBeauty, do you have any statistics? I don’t. Do you? The useful stats would be what percentage of men and what percentage of transwomen have been violent against women. Because naturally, there’ll be more men than transwomen in numbers committing assaults because there are more men. The useful metric would be percentage.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If saying that men commit violent crime way more than women is anti-men then... yeah?

Then what's your solution? If trans men commit less crimes than cis men, maybe us cis men are the problem?

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If saying that men commit violent crime way more than women is anti-men then... yeah?

LineOfBeauty, do you have any statistics? I don’t. Do you?

I don't, I've entered into this based purely on common sense. With a simple google, first result I found though says in a study performed in 2010 it seemed to be that trans men were less than half more likely to commit homicide than cis men. To me that seems a little high but I've put literally the most minimal amount of effort in possible (one google search and the first result that popped up) and that's what I found.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Then what's your solution? If trans men commit less crimes than cis men, maybe us cis men are the problem?

Do transgender women less frequently commit violent crimes than men? Like what percentage of transwomen commit violent crimes? And what percentage of men?

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do transgender women less frequently commit violent crimes than men? Like what percentage of transwomen commit violent crimes? And what percentage of men?

As the person advocating for treating someone as a second class citizen based on this entirely unfounded assertion that trans people are all violent maniacs waiting to be unleashed in gender specific bathrooms, I think the onus is very much on you to provide statistics that prove your points.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

As the person advocating for treating someone as a second class citizen based on this entirely unfounded assertion that trans people are all violent maniacs waiting to be unleashed in gender specific bathrooms, I think the onus is very much on you to provide statistics that prove your points.

Do you think male strength goes away once somebody changes gender? Do you really need to see a peer-reviewed study on that?

I don’t think asking to remain sex-segregated spaces is treating anybody second class, to be honest. Indeed, it’s asking women to capitulate. Who’s treating who as second class here? Rights and needs are colliding.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do you think male strength goes away once somebody changes gender? Do you really need to see a peer-reviewed study on that?

I don’t think asking to remain sex-segregated spaces is treating anybody second class, to be honest. Indeed, it’s asking women to capitulate. Whose treating who as second class here?

But do you think transgender men are more likely to commit physicauly assault than cis men? Because my very minimal google and my mass basic common sense would indicate otherwise.

Again I'd love to know what it is with you right wingers and toilets? My college has a unisex toilet, one of my locals has a unisex toilet, the bar I go to after work has a unisex toilet, the leisure centre I go to has unisex changing rooms. Nobody, as of yet, has exploded from a case of "PC gone mad"

Is your sole issue with transgender people bathrooms/changing rooms?