Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Wibbs

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Try getting a job with an 85 IQ (15% of Irish people) in an increasingly digitized and cognitively demanding economy. You're really going to be fùcked in that scenario like and a lot of people are getting locked out of the job market because of this. Why do you think the tech companies in the docks are mainly hiring multinational workers, not Irish in their software engineering department? The great lie.

While I would broadly agree regarding IQ, there are other factors in the mix. Education specifically Irish education in the area of IT. From what I've gathered we're not nearly up to speed compared to some countries and that's a barrier for "locals" to deal with. Hence more bought and brought in workers. Don't forget those same multinational workers will be coming from countries which will also have their own 15% of lower IQ individuals.

As for the "race" angle and IQ. Yes I am quite sure that IQ stats can and do follow certain population trends. Like any other feature selected for by culture and genetics. However there are a few issues with that. 1) it only tells you the averages. Which is fine, but judging populations on averages and treating them accordingly is problematic on a few levels. 2) There is a cultural component. Both in the measurements themselves and in what a particular culture may select for. An underdeveloped dog eat dog culture may select more for "street smarts" and aggression over academic excellence compared to a developed culture. 3) It's quite clear from history that these differences change over time. Go back a couple of thousand years and you could randomly fling Nobel prizes into an Athenian olive grove and a helluva lot would stick, yet in the last century Ireland has had more Nobel laureates than Greece. The ancient Greeks regarded the various Jewish peoples as quirky superstitious goat farmers yet look at the list of Jewish Nobel winners today. The Middle East yet another example. It was basically the cradle of civilisation, yet today religious studies are the largest percentage of third level degrees.

Playboy

bnt wrote: »

JMNolan wrote: »

WTF

Likewise. I mean, we all know there are people in the world who are just wrong, and we might wish we didn't have to hear them, but we're not all going to agree on just who those people are.

Another example: scientist Charles Murray is due to speak at Stanford University next week. Murray was co-author of The Bell Curve, one of the most controversial books of recent times, since it says that intelligence is a good predictor of success, and in one chapter it describes statistical differences in intelligence between races. So a group wrote to the President of the university in an attempt to "de-platform" him, and published the letter here. This got a robust response from the Stanford Review, here, and so far it looks like the talk will go ahead on the 22nd.

Sam Harris hosted an excellent podcast with Murray a few months back.

bnt

Yep - IQ is a statistical measure, and all the stats tell us is that there are correlations with race, not a causal relationship. if you meet some random member of a particular race, you have no certainty about that person's IQ, only a distribution of probabilities. It does not give you any license to treat any person with any less respect.

In that Jordan Peterson lecture above, he's basically repeating the conclusion of The Bell Curve - that people with lower IQs, through no fault of their own, are going to be at an increasing disadvantage in a future with increased automation. (I've read that book, and the controversial racial angle is not actually what it's about - that's a sideshow.) The example he uses, of computer programming, is a good example: it requires a higher level of abstract thought and an ability to learn continuously. You don't "learn programming" then "do programming": in high-level programming, as opposed to "script kiddie" stuff, the learning and doing are inseparable. The learning never stops. In my view (based on study and personal experience), low IQ manifests itself as an inability to learn effectively, both in school and in life in general.

backspin.

Wibbs wrote: »

While I would broadly agree regarding IQ, there are other factors in the mix. Education specifically Irish education in the area of IT. From what I've gathered we're not nearly up to speed compared to some countries and that's a barrier for "locals" to deal with. Hence more bought and brought in workers. Don't forget those same multinational workers will be coming from countries which will also have their own 15% of lower IQ individuals.

As for the "race" angle and IQ. Yes I am quite sure that IQ stats can and do follow certain population trends. Like any other feature selected for by culture and genetics. However there are a few issues with that. 1) it only tells you the averages. Which is fine, but judging populations on averages and treating them accordingly is problematic on a few levels. 2) There is a cultural component. Both in the measurements themselves and in what a particular culture may select for. An underdeveloped dog eat dog culture may select more for "street smarts" and aggression over academic excellence compared to a developed culture. 3) It's quite clear from history that these differences change over time. Go back a couple of thousand years and you could randomly fling Nobel prizes into an Athenian olive grove and a helluva lot would stick, yet in the last century Ireland has had more Nobel laureates than Greece. The ancient Greeks regarded the various Jewish peoples as quirky superstitious goat farmers yet look at the list of Jewish Nobel winners today. The Middle East yet another example. It was basically the cradle of civilisation, yet today religious studies are the largest percentage of third level degrees.

The people inhabiting the middle East today have changed slot since those times genetically.

What do you think of the Irish IQ I have seen studies stating its 93 and others putting it at 98. I think the age group the 93 results came from was 6 to 13. Yet the British value of 100 was from a standardized IQ test taken from adults only.

If you look at Northern Ireland the ethnic Irish are outperforming the ethnic british in education results. That should be difficult if there was a 7 point IQ difference.

Wibbs

backspin. wrote: »

The people inhabiting the middle East today have changed slot since those times genetically.

Not by much. Persians for example show a deviation from the surrounding Arab populations. Now of course there has been mixture with different populations on the back of conquest and trade, but they're essentially the same peoples. Hell forget about thousands of years ago, look at the rise of early Islam's civilisation which was incredibly advanced at the time, again full of what would be Nobel winners and that's much more recent genetically. Again culture was a major component in that change back to stasis. Basically religious leaders decided that all this thinking and science was a bit ungodly and it pretty much stopped overnight.

What do you think of the Irish IQ I have seen studies stating its 93 and others putting it at 98. I think the age group the 93 results came from was 6 to 13. Yet the British value of 100 was from a standardized IQ test taken from adults only.

If you look at Northern Ireland the ethnic Irish are outperforming the ethnic british in education results. That should be difficult if there was a 7 point IQ difference.

Because it's almost certainly down to no such difference being present. Selection bias, both cultural scientific and political is usually in the mix.

backspin.

Wibbs wrote: »

Because it's almost certainly down to no such difference being present. Selection bias, both cultural scientific and political is usually in the mix.

Using results from 6 to 13 year olds was not a great idea. How would you even motive that age group to apply themselves fully.

pumpkin4life

backspin. wrote: »

The people inhabiting the middle East today have changed slot since those times genetically.

What do you think of the Irish IQ I have seen studies stating its 93 and others putting it at 98. I think the age group the 93 results came from was 6 to 13. Yet the British value of 100 was from a standardized IQ test taken from adults only.

If you look at Northern Ireland the ethnic Irish are outperforming the ethnic british in education results. That should be difficult if there was a 7 point IQ difference.

93 seems too low. That's South American territory in all honestly. Irish society is too functional for that to be true lol. 98 sounds about right.

Or maybe it is true, but the variance of the distribution for Irish people is a lot higher. So the statistical distribution/tails are a lot fatter, hence the whole over representation of Irish lads in the Nobel Prize category for example.

Brian?

Why are people so obsessed with IQ?

Recent studies show it’s flawed way to measure someone’s intellectual capacity. I purposely don’t use intelligence here, because it’s difficult to define intelligence to begin with. It’s not a singular ability and has a number of components.

The Rape of Lucretia

pumpkin4life wrote: »

I'd say one of the barriers to the acceptance of this is the guy who is a little bit above average, but thinks he's intelligent because he has a degree or reads The Guardian and is used to being the smartest guy in the room.

As far as I can see, every second person you meet these days seems to think they are above average intelligence.

pitifulgod

Brian? wrote: »

Why are people so obsessed with IQ?

Recent studies show it’s flawed way to measure someone’s intellectual capacity. I purposely don’t use intelligence here, because it’s difficult to define intelligence to begin with. It’s not a singular ability and has a number of components.

Remember reading about how abstract reasoning would have been virtually non existent amongst people a century or two ago. But would have been practically incredibly intelligent and very much so on par with normal levels of intelligence. Just wouldn't reflect with modern tests.

Brian?

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Both are true.

IQ is one of the single darkest truths about life in my opinion, but considering its predictive power (governments, the military and various businesses co-operations) and its ability to explain the world around us and the way things are, it is something that should be discussed.

Like the whole "all those wasters on the dole who don't have a job" line you hear sometimes. Yeah.

Try getting a job with an 85 IQ (15% of Irish people) in an increasingly digitized and cognitively demanding economy. You're really going to be fùcked in that scenario like and a lot of people are getting locked out of the job market because of this. Why do you think the tech companies in the docks are mainly hiring multinational workers, not Irish in their software engineering department? The great lie.
.

What great lie? Loads of people have too low an IQ to code?

In my experience, tech companies are hiring from outside because of the lack of people with the right skills. Skills gained through third level education. We simply don’t produce enough tech graduates, because enough people don’t want to go into tech.

I say this as someone who hires people for a tech company, occasionally.

The Rape of Lucretia

pumpkin4life wrote: »

hence the whole over representation of Irish lads in the Nobel Prize category for example.

To be fair, thats only thanks to the British, for giving us the English language.

ardinn

Brian? wrote: »

Joe Rogan stops just shy of felating guests he agrees with. His interview with Shapiro made me sick. Is this any better? Does he actually challenge Peterson in any way? If not, I doubt I’ll watch it.

Joe rogan can do what he wants - he generally probes and listens to people rather than designing an attack on them. Generally calls out anyone who he thinks is full of sh!t.

Brian?

ardinn wrote: »

Joe rogan can do what he wants - he generally probes and listens to people rather than designing an attack on them. Generally calls out anyone who he thinks is full of sh!t.

Joe Rogan can do what he wants, I never said he couldn’t. I have never heard him disagree with a guest in any meaningful way.

twinytwo

The problem with a lot of this PC nonsence etc is that people seem forget the world/life isnt fair. You will always have rich and poor just like you will always have night and day.

All the little snowflakes spend too much time being offended today because someone assumed their gender, when in reality the real world does not care.

professore

bnt wrote: »

In my view (based on study and personal experience), low IQ manifests itself as an inability to learn effectively, both in school and in life in general.

This is true, but the converse is not necessarily true. I have known some very technically brilliant people who struggled academically because of chronically bad organisational abilities or conditions like dyslexia. One person in particular is now making 300k in a highly technical sales role who struggled in college because of dyslexia. He understood everything, often better than some of the top students, worked like a dog but still barely scraped through exams. But he is of course one of the exceptions that proves the rule.

professore

Brian? wrote: »

Joe Rogan can do what he wants, I never said he couldn’t. I have never heard him disagree with a guest in any meaningful way.

Hmm he disagrees with them way more than the conventional media. And unlike the conventional media he doesn't pick a political ideology as his basis for questioning, his questioning is based on his unfiltered thoughts on what the guest is saying. So if it sounds wrong to him personally then he says it.

professore

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

To be fair, thats only thanks to the British, for giving us the English language.

You do realise the Nobel Prize is Swedish, right?
What explains all the Jews then?

professore

Wibbs wrote: »

While I would broadly agree regarding IQ, there are other factors in the mix. Education specifically Irish education in the area of IT. From what I've gathered we're not nearly up to speed compared to some countries and that's a barrier for "locals" to deal with. Hence more bought and brought in workers. Don't forget those same multinational workers will be coming from countries which will also have their own 15% of lower IQ individuals.

As for the "race" angle and IQ. Yes I am quite sure that IQ stats can and do follow certain population trends. Like any other feature selected for by culture and genetics. However there are a few issues with that. 1) it only tells you the averages. Which is fine, but judging populations on averages and treating them accordingly is problematic on a few levels. 2) There is a cultural component. Both in the measurements themselves and in what a particular culture may select for. An underdeveloped dog eat dog culture may select more for "street smarts" and aggression over academic excellence compared to a developed culture. 3) It's quite clear from history that these differences change over time. Go back a couple of thousand years and you could randomly fling Nobel prizes into an Athenian olive grove and a helluva lot would stick, yet in the last century Ireland has had more Nobel laureates than Greece. The ancient Greeks regarded the various Jewish peoples as quirky superstitious goat farmers yet look at the list of Jewish Nobel winners today. The Middle East yet another example. It was basically the cradle of civilisation, yet today religious studies are the largest percentage of third level degrees.

We're not behind in terms of IT graduates. The reason there are so many "foreigners" is because our population is too small. Irish IT graduates are damn good and better than most when it comes to practical real world problem solving. Lots of them working in silicon Valley Certainly none of them are unemployed because foreigners are taking their jobs.

Brian?

professore wrote: »

Hmm he disagrees with them way more than the conventional media. And unlike the conventional media he doesn't pick a political ideology as his basis for questioning, his questioning is based on his unfiltered thoughts on what the guest is saying. So if it sounds wrong to him personally then he says it.

Fair enough. I have really listened enough then. I sat through a recent interview he did with Ben Shapiro and he left a lot of stuff unchallenged, Shapiro was presenting opinions as facts.

Koala Sunshine

bnt wrote: »

Yep - IQ is a statistical measure, and all the stats tell us is that there are correlations with race, not a causal relationship. if you meet some random member of a particular race, you have no certainty about that person's IQ, only a distribution of probabilities. It does not give you any license to treat any person with any less respect.

In that Jordan Peterson lecture above, he's basically repeating the conclusion of The Bell Curve - that people with lower IQs, through no fault of their own, are going to be at an increasing disadvantage in a future with increased automation. (I've read that book, and the controversial racial angle is not actually what it's about - that's a sideshow.) The example he uses, of computer programming, is a good example: it requires a higher level of abstract thought and an ability to learn continuously. You don't "learn programming" then "do programming": in high-level programming, as opposed to "script kiddie" stuff, the learning and doing are inseparable. The learning never stops. In my view (based on study and personal experience), low IQ manifests itself as an inability to learn effectively, both in school and in life in general.

Has anyone ever suggested that someone deserves less respect because their demographic averages lower on IQ tests?

Brian?

professore wrote: »

We're not behind in terms of IT graduates. The reason there are so many "foreigners" is because our population is too small. Irish IT graduates are damn good and better than most when it comes to practical real world problem solving. Lots of them working in silicon Valley Certainly none of them are unemployed because foreigners are taking their jobs.

100% agree. The tech graduates we produce are 2nd to none, in my experience. The problem is actually gross numbers. We simply can’t produce enough graduates to fill the demand.

There was an issue with people choosing third level STEM courses at leaving cert during the Celtic tiger. Everyone wanted to be an architect, solicitor or some sort of builder. I don’t think this has been fully corrected. For the last 5 years we’ve been hiring people who lost their construction related jobs in the down turn and went back to college to re skill, life experience plus Irish tech qualifications are brilliant to have.

Brian?

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

Has anyone ever suggested that someone deserves less respect because their demographic averages lower on IQ tests?

Yes. White nationalists do it all the time. The alt right love an IQ comparison by ethnic background.

Celticfire

Brian? wrote: »

Fair enough. I have really listened enough then. I sat through a recent interview he did with Ben Shapiro and he left a lot of stuff unchallenged, Shapiro was presenting opinions as facts.

Would you by any chance have a couple of examples of this?

take everything

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

As far as I can see, every second person you meet these days seems to think they are above average intelligence.

😁

twinytwo

professore wrote: »

We're not behind in terms of IT graduates. The reason there are so many "foreigners" is because our population is too small. Irish IT graduates are damn good and better than most when it comes to practical real world problem solving. Lots of them working in silicon Valley Certainly none of them are unemployed because foreigners are taking their jobs.

Another major pit fall for us is the lack of a 2nd european language.A huge % of jobs require a second languge which a lot of Irish people do not have.

I think it also took too long for the government to bring languages and computer realtion topics to primary school.

There should be a major push in languages/maths/science and computers from an early age.

The Rape of Lucretia

twinytwo wrote: »

Another major pit fall for us is the lack of a 2nd european language.A huge % of jobs require a second languge which a lot of Irish people do not have.

Part of the price to be paid for the Irish language handicap we inflict on ourselves. Other European countries are automatically ahead of us as a result.

Koala Sunshine

Brian? wrote: »

Yes. White nationalists do it all the time. The alt right love an IQ comparison by ethnic background.

Do you think you are speaking to white nationalists on this thread?

Wibbs

professore wrote: »

What explains all the Jews then?

A long time cultural self selection and praise for academic intellect. Over time this will result in more individuals reaching the top in such pursuits. Another group that doesn't select for that will have far more untapped individuals.

professore

Brian? wrote: »

Fair enough. I have really listened enough then. I sat through a recent interview he did with Ben Shapiro and he left a lot of stuff unchallenged, Shapiro was presenting opinions as facts.

Ben Shapiro is a master of debate.and talks at 100 miles an hour. Not making excuses for Rogan mind you, but Shapiro is a formidable opponent.