Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

I agree with your post, I’m only going to respond to the last paragraph. Peterson is very popular with single white young men, from what I can ascertain.

I fully understand why, he attacks feminists and other cultural progressives. There are a lot of this demographic who feel their place in society has been attacked and destroyed. It hasn’t, white males have lost their dominance in the US. Not because they were attacked and dragged down, but because society has become progressively fairer.

That's certainly part of it, but I would also say another part of it is that the fairness can be relative depending on one's position. As is always the case with societies in general.

As an example one could argue that the demographic of single white(or black for that matter, if not moreso) young heterosexual men are very much in the firing line in the Brave New World, at least from certain and increasingly mainstream sources. An argument that would be pretty easy to make with it. And outside the realms of any shift of fairness too. This demographic are consistently painted as the oppressors.

Take Petersons - hardly new angle, but packaged more in bite sized chunks for the Youtube generation - near obsession with and explanation of post modernist thought. Which he labels as and equates with Marxism, which is only half true. Anyway in the political end of that there is the oppressor/oppressed narrative and those positions are fixed. So for example in the gender debate women are always the oppressed and men are always the oppressors and neither can be the other. Hence we see the "women can't be sexist" type statement(similarly in the "race" debate through the same prism we see the people of colour can't be racists).

A statement that is clearly and by any logic a nonsense. So when this is pointed out by someone like him a helluva lot of people are likely to respond with "well, yes, of course he's right" with a side order of "why is he one of the few public figures saying it and why are those who are pushing this narrative so quick to attack him for saying it". That's powerful juju right there. Well stating the bloody obvious tends to be. That's how you get people through your door, you can drip feed them bullsh1t after that. All isms with a hard on for the cause do this.

People looking for a place in this new, more equal society often fall into the trap of looking backwards. Things were better in the 60s. “Men were real men back then” they think.

Very common in times of societal flux. Look at the late 19th century in the West. A time of incredible societal and technological change and one thing we notice is the very popular theme of looking back to halcyon ages. The new Gothic, , the New Art all sinewy and "natural", the hankering for Tudor age in England, the pan European hunt for individual society's foundation stories(and the rise of new nationalism). Even invented ones. QV Ossian, or invented religions like Wicca and Druidism in the face of Nietzsche going off and killing God. Hell even Tolkien was trying to ready up such an origin myth for the middle class Home Counties folk of Middle England with Middle Earth and the ring. More tea vicar, said the Hobbit.

Peterson feeds this desire for regression to more traditional gender roles. Why he desires this is beyond me. Possibly he doesn’t like how he sees society in North America and can only see a way back and not forward.

Or the simpler explanation is that he sees his cosily middle class religious suburban life with the wife who was his childhood sweetheart as the template and anything much beyond that is somehow "broken". From the outside it seems a charmed western life for the aspirational white boy indeed.

As the father of 2 young boys, I do worry about how the toxic societalinfluences of will effect them as they grow up. But as long as they grow up as productive decent human beings I don’t care if they are gender fluid pansexuals like me, or cis gender heterosexuals like their mother. And neither should anyone else.

But if they grow up to be "cis gender heterosexuals" who are by nature more "traditionalist", how would you feel then? How would a society fostered by the US college template feel about them? They would essentially be the "enemy" by virtue of their gender and sexuality and as I say certain parts of modern western mainstream thought would care and would see them as that.

Or apologists. That's about the only other role young straight men have in that politic. When "toxic masculinity" has become a thing in the mainstream, where even the most liberal westerns societies can be ridiculously described as "rape cultures", where young men with emotional problems are guided towards modern feminism as a treatment, usually by the aforementioned apologist men, when being a young man is somehow a state that requires reeducation and treatment of sorts, then where does that leave young straight men? Well it seems for a lot of them outside of those who go full apologist, it leaves them looking to people like Peterson, or actual hardline right wingers, or PUA gurus, or Red Pill thought, or copping out altogether and "Going their own way".

Now I am not one of those who blames feminism for this. It does what it says on the tin. It doesn't exist to help men. To paraphrase the 70's Feminist Gloria Steinem "a man needs feminism, like a fish needs a bicycle". And young black men have it worse, young brown men are as likely to be seen as terrorists and young yellow men are almost invisible and young gay men have most certainly their own sh1t to be going on with. The difference between all such groups and young straight pale of face men is that all those groups have pretty established support structures and lobbyists in play. That vacuum is where Peterson et al comes in. And that's not so good as people will always look for simplistic answers. Clean your room etc.

cantdecide

Wibbs wrote: »

The difference between all such groups and young straight pale of face men is that all those groups have pretty established support structures and lobbyists in play. That vacuum is where Peterson et al comes in. And that's not so good as people will always look for simplistic answers. Clean your room etc.

But what then is the answer, in your mind? Nothing happening and continuing the status quo doesn't appear to be doing much good for boys and vulnerable young men. I wouldn't say JP is the messiah but he's hardly just a very naughty boy either He says lots and lots of things about lots and lots of issues and there is hyperbole and exaggeration for effect, no doubt but I'm just glad that someone prominent is saying [some] of the things that are being said. There's a lot of pent up angst and frustration and his message appears to resonate.

I'm in my mid 30s and all of my schooling was in all boys' schools and maybe this is just my perception or maybe that it was that I was noticing the world around me a little more but I recall the feeling of being compared to girls in a negative light - the 'boys are treated like defective girls' thing. The world is a very empowering place for young girls and appears to be the opposite for young boys and I remember how that made me feel.

pumpkin4life

Wibbs wrote: »

The Peterson type is a father figure of sorts. Which does make one wonder about their actual fathers, if present.

Bingo. That's the key to his popularity right there.

I'm in my early to mid twenties and maybe unknown to a lot of lads on boards (boards is probably more middle class, sheltered, clean in general I'd say):

The broken family/divorced couples/raised by single wans is far higher than in previous generations, especially for the working class lads.

When you don't have a father figure, sometimes your twenties is just a giant "let's try this and I have no idea what the fùck I'm doing" and to have any guidance at all is a great thing to have.

2 Scoops

I don't see him as a father figure type. I see him as a high profile University type ( ex Harvard ) who's simply said the truth about transgender pronoun madness.

The thing is he would have never gotten famous if it wasn't for Canadian law forcing compelled speech. If someone wishes to be transgender I say go ahead, what you do with your life is none of my business - the issue occurs when you as an individual are forced to call someone by their preferred pronoun and doing otherwise is an insult and lack of respect.

Tell me - how is referring to someone as "he" or "she" showing a person respect. That's what billions of people are referred to around the world, it isn't a sign of respect at all. This pronoun stuff is in many ways a form of bullying and PC control, and I for one would have serious doubts about the intentions of those who jump on such a bandwagon supporting such laws. I believe some do it for power and others do it because they're lonely and want to live in a social structure where they can't be criticized and see it as a get out from their own social failings, that is human nature. I don't believe the faculty types are much better - I think they are incredibly power hungry and nasty people as evidenced by the conversation that girl recorded.

I'll reiterate I'm sure there are many genuine people out there struggling with such issues and do in their own mind feel they are in the wrong body or whatever it may be, I hope those people get the help they need. The bullies and authoritarians can stuff it, godspeed to Peterson.

The other obvious reason for supporting him is the indoctrination that's occurring on college campuses.

Wibbs

cantdecide wrote: »

But what then is the answer, in your mind?

Not an easy question CD. I'd take the oppressed/oppressor notion off the table for a start. I would certainly not suggest young men look to feminism as a way. I'd try and reduce the echo chamber effect which drives this Them Versus Us BS, but that horse has long bolted. I'd certainly suggest Irish men and women for that matter do not take their opinions and "solutions" from US based sources. That's a major bloody problem. You see this far less within the rest of Europe(outside the UK), because the shared language isn't so shared. I'd personally avoid the various masculinist type movements, because 9 times outa 10 they ape and are equal to the feminists in promoting victimhood, separation and whataboutery. I really don't know..

As for your schooldays; I'm 50 and didn't have or feel that kinda thing at all and went to an all boys school too. So maybe that shift if it happened at all happened in the 20 years between us?

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Bingo. That's the key to his popularity right there.

I'm in my early to mid twenties and maybe unknown to a lot of lads on boards (boards is probably more middle class, sheltered, clean in general I'd say):

The broken family/divorced couples/raised by single wans is far higher than in previous generations, especially for the working class lads.

When you don't have a father figure, sometimes your twenties is just a giant "let's try this and I have no idea what the fùck I'm doing" and to have any guidance at all is a great thing to have.

No doubt that's a part of it. I do recall reading that one of the most influential male role in a man's life isn't always the father, but another grown man, or men who aren't related. In most societies, even in our society until quite recently nearly all men went through an apprenticeship phase, including in the professions. That's certainly more lacking now. It would be my personal opinion as a general thing that women are more resilient in growing up and can almost grow themselves up, but men aren't so good at that. Obviously in general of course.

pumpkin4life

Wibbs wrote: »

No doubt that's a part of it. I do recall reading that one of the most influential male role in a man's life isn't always the father, but another grown man, or men who aren't related. In most societies, even in our society until quite recently nearly all men went through an apprenticeship phase, including in the professions. That's certainly more lacking now. It would be my personal opinion as a general thing that women are more resilient in growing up and can almost grow themselves up, but men aren't so good at that. Obviously in general of course.

Well they don't swing way to the left side of the bell curve and do stupid shìt less, no doubt, but if you're a wan, there will always be some bit of a safety net because men will always want to help you out in some capacity.

Whereas if you're a man, if you're not providing something to society, then its sort of like "so long good luck lad".

That tends to swing more towards men as they age though.

I said it before, that the big difference between men and women is variance.

Higher highers and lower lows for men. More evenly spread for women. Nothing good or bad about it, it just is.

Dyr

2 Scoops wrote: »

The thing is he would have never gotten famous if it wasn't for Canadian law forcing compelled speech.

And thats the long and short of it, Petersons being doing his thing for a long time but only became famous when he resisted what he saw as compelled speech. And even then he only became famous because he had the balls not to back down the face of the tactics his opponents always use to silence their critics. Threatening his job and assassinating his character.

For anyone interested Jordan and Sam Harris will be having a chat in the Point on the 14th of July

2 Scoops

Deleted User wrote: »

For anyone interested Jordan and Sam Harris will be having a chat in the Point on the 14th of July

Douglas Murray too afaik

mzungu

Deleted User wrote: »

For anyone interested Jordan and Sam Harris will be having a chat in the Point on the 14th of July

Bringing the DeLorean are they? :P

mzungu

mzungu wrote: »

Bringing the DeLorean are they? :P

Arrah you can have your fancy 3Arena but it will always be The Point to me

2 Scoops

2 Scoops wrote: »

Douglas Murray too afaik

That's right. I don't know an awful lot about him so will google.

mzungu

Deleted User wrote: »

Arrah you can have your fancy 3Arena but it will always be The Point to me

I'll admit, I still called it the Point up until recently, then one day I came out with "Oh they are in the 3Arena." Bloody indoctrination. However, I shall use them interchangeably until the day comes where it gets renamed the Point Depot again. Presumably this will only happen if a telecoms provider calling itself "Point Depot" comes onto the scene and buys the place.

Wibbs

pumpkin4life wrote: »

if you're a wan, there will always be some bit of a safety net because men will always want to help you out in some capacity.

I would say society will want to help you more. Women are the more "protected" gender. This is undeniable. Now I parenthesise protected because this isn't and certainly wasn't necessarily a good thing. EG: In many cultures women are "protected" by being little more than cloistered baby factories. QV Taliban controlled Afghanistan. That's their value and they're a valuable asset and one protects those.

But yes in the West in order of "value" and societal protection it nearly always goes in this broad order; children, women, men. If somebody wants to raise awareness for a social ill, then focus on women who are suffering from it, it will get more attention and more likelihood of support. Add in children and women and you're on a winner. Homeless men? Terrible, just terrible. What's on RTE2? Homeless women and kids? Ohmigod! has it come to this?. Homeless families almost always focus on the women and kids. Hostage situation kicks off, who do they plead for release first? In courts of law a woman is far more likely to get a lower sentence than a man for the same crime. In multicultural western countries campaigners rightly complain that certain groups, like African Americans in the US are more likely to get gaol time and longer gaol time and more chance of the death penalty, yet the gender bias in sentencing is rarely enough mentioned. Indeed some more hard on feminists have argued that even fewer women should be imprisoned. And no need to go to some daffy US college for that. Our own Ivana Bacik has more than once suggested that even fewer women should be sentenced to prison. Professor of Law in Trinners Ivana Bacik. Bit of a change from when the Suffragettes(who themselves had more issues than Time's back catalogue) observed the same bias in favour of women in the law and fought to have them sentenced the same as men, including capital crimes.

take everything

Nice video of a transgender person extolling Jordan Peterson here.
Seems like a cool person who stresses taking responsibility for your own crap (essentially a large part of Peterson's message).

https://youtu.be/X3k4QVZ1-CY

Edit: they criticise him also but I think it's done in a fair and reasonable way. Why can't people be more like this

sbsquarepants

Brian? wrote: »

I can understand why you like him. He had the sheen and polish of a truth teller.

You’re 100% right about feelings v facts. The problem is that Peterson often presents opinion as fact. With little more justification than his academic credentials.

I suppose I'd be a fool not to yield to greater knowledge of the man, I've only seen and read snippets here and there, but I honestly haven't come across anything like that in what I have seen. Quite the opposite in fact.
Maybe I've just seen some cherry picked highlights?

Brian?

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I suppose I'd be a fool not to yield to greater knowledge of the man, I've only seen and read snippets here and there, but I honestly haven't come across anything like that in what I have seen. Quite the opposite in fact.
Maybe I've just seen some cherry picked highlights?

I’d urge to listen carefully to how he presents his world view. He often states the points he’s making as if they are indisputable facts, when they are in fact his opinions.

The only thing I’ve ever heard him say that genuinely annoyed me was that students shouldn’t protest as they haven’t grown up enough. What a load of nonsense. I’ve no problem with him disagreeing with the protestors, but to attack their right to protest in the first place is wrong IMO.

Brian?

cantdecide wrote: »

But what then is the answer, in your mind? Nothing happening and continuing the status quo doesn't appear to be doing much good for boys and vulnerable young men. I wouldn't say JP is the messiah but he's hardly just a very naughty boy either He says lots and lots of things about lots and lots of issues and there is hyperbole and exaggeration for effect, no doubt but I'm just glad that someone prominent is saying [some] of the things that are being said. There's a lot of pent up angst and frustration and his message appears to resonate.

I'm in my mid 30s and all of my schooling was in all boys' schools and maybe this is just my perception or maybe that it was that I was noticing the world around me a little more but I recall the feeling of being compared to girls in a negative light - the 'boys are treated like defective girls' thing. The world is a very empowering place for young girls and appears to be the opposite for young boys and I remember how that made me feel.

This is exactly what I was talking about. There are concerted efforts in western society to empower women, because women need the leg up. This is not an attack on men. This effort is to help women feel more equal, not make men less equal.

I’d also say that the world is not an empowering place for young women. Western society is getting better, but it’s not there yet.

This is one point where Dr Peterson and I agree. Men need to stop worrying about the perceived bias towards women, LGBTQ+ people etc. and maintain control of their own destiny. Grow up and stop worrying about perceived slights. Treat those people with dignity and worry about yourself. Get an education, get a job, work hard. You’re not being discriminated against.

cantdecide

Brian? wrote: »

This is exactly what I was talking about. There are concerted efforts in western society to empower women, because women need the leg up. This is not an attack on men. This effort is to help women feel more equal, not make men less equal.

This is one point where Dr Peterson and I agree. Men need to stop worrying about the perceived bias towards women, LGBTQ+ people etc. and maintain control of their own destiny. Grow up and stop worrying about perceived slights. Treat those people with dignity and worry about yourself. Get an education, get a job, work hard. You’re not being discriminated against.

I've told you before, I won't let you goad me into engaging with your monologue debate on this thread as I don't approve of your tactics. Please don't quote me again. I won't be engaging with you on your special the subject.

robindch

Brian? wrote: »

The only thing I’ve ever heard him say that genuinely annoyed me was that students shouldn’t protest as they haven’t grown up enough. What a load of nonsense. I’ve no problem with him disagreeing with the protestors, but to attack their right to protest in the first place is wrong IMO.

Haven't listened to more than, I suppose, an hour's worth of his output and like a lot of people with very confused, angry and simplistic views, there's only so much one can take of his uncivil patter before activities like doing the dishes or having a poo seem more attractive.

The funniest bit - or most annoying bit depending on taste - was that angry news report (I'm sure it's linked to above) in which he said he was going to refer to transgender people by whatever pronoun he wanted to, because otherwise, his right to free speech was being denied.

It can only be a matter of time before something like this happens:

Fred: Hey, pleased to meet you Dr Peterson! My name's Fred.
Jordan Peterson: Fred? You don't look like a 'Fred' to me but a 'Jacob'. I'm going to call you Jacob.
Fred: Uh, my name's Fred.
JP: Jacob, you're denying my freedom of speech!
Fred: No, I'm not. I'm telling you my name is Fred.
JP: You are a typical disgusting liberal retard thinking you can dictate how I interact with the world!! I have a right to free speech and I will use that right!!
Fred: Uh, ok. Keep taking the pills.
JP: Only idiots and fascists resort to insults or free speech denial. Which one are you?
Fred: Nurse, nurse!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

Pepefrogok

Brian? wrote: »

This is exactly what I was talking about. There are concerted efforts in western society to empower women, because women need the leg up. This is not an attack on men. This effort is to help women feel more equal, not make men less equal.

I’d also say that the world is not an empowering place for young women. Western society is getting better, but it’s not there yet.

This is one point where Dr Peterson and I agree. Men need to stop worrying about the perceived bias towards women, LGBTQ+ people etc. and maintain control of their own destiny. Grow up and stop worrying about perceived slights. Treat those people with dignity and worry about yourself. Get an education, get a job, work hard. You’re not being discriminated against.

Women need a leg up??? Jesus is 2018 man, try and not be so misogynistic ffs, women are equal to you and don't need your condescendin, all they need is equality of opportunity which I am glad to say they have in our country!

Brian?

cantdecide wrote: »

I've told you before, I won't let you goad me into engaging with your monologue debate on this thread as I don't approve of your tactics. Please don't quote me again. I won't be engaging with you on your special the subject.

I don’t care if you reply. I’ll quote you any time I want. It’s an open and free forum.

FYI, my only tactic is to state my opinion honestly. If you don’t like it, there’s an ignore function.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

This is exactly what I was talking about. There are concerted efforts in western society to empower women, because women need the leg up. This is not an attack on men. This effort is to help women feel more equal, not make men less equal.

I’d also say that the world is not an empowering place for young women. Western society is getting better, but it’s not there yet.

Yet in Ireland today, women are on average more educated, less likely to be illiterate and are paid more than men(before kids). By the majority of metrics, including health, longevity, social support, education, employment, housing, social problems etc women are ahead of men. Which is fine, but it's a tad hard to keep banging the victim drum at this stage for a demographic that you reckon needs more of a leg up.

robindch wrote:

The funniest bit - or most annoying bit depending on taste - was that angry news report (I'm sure it's linked to above) in which he said he was going to refer to transgender people by whatever pronoun he wanted to, because otherwise, his right to free speech was being denied.

IIRC(?) his point/objection was that it was being enshrined in law. Now to take your analogy; if someone wants to be known as "Fred", game ball. I'm not a dick, I will refer to them as Fred. Basic human manners going on. However I would object to being compelled by law to refer to someone by any name/descriptor they choose.

Brian?

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Women need a leg up??? Jesus is 2018 man, try and not be so misogynistic ffs, women are equal to you and don't need your condescendin, all they need is equality of opportunity which I am glad to say they have in our country!

Typcial hyperbolic BS. I’m an misogynist and condescending to women. That’s some effort.

Women have a more equal opportunity in Ireland than most, it’s still not equal though. But that’s just my opinion, I’m not stating it as fact because it’s something I can’t quantify

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

The only thing I’ve ever heard him say that genuinely annoyed me was that students shouldn’t protest as they haven’t grown up enough. What a load of nonsense. I’ve no problem with him disagreeing with the protestors, but to attack their right to protest in the first place is wrong IMO.

I'd agree with that 100%. It's damn near the job of a new generation to protest. Or should be.

cantdecide

Brian? wrote: »

I don’t care if you reply. I’ll quote you any time I want. It’s an open and free forum.

FYI, my only tactic is to state my opinion honestly. If you don’t like it, there’s an ignore function.

I only asked. I'm not your dad. Do what you like.

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet in Ireland today, women are on average more educated, less likely to be illiterate and are paid more than men(before kids). By the majority of metrics, including health, longevity, social support, education, employment, housing, social problems etc women are ahead of men. Which is fine, but it's a tad hard to keep banging the victim drum at this stage for a demographic that you reckon needs more of a leg up.
.

Fair point. I think the days of institutional sexism are truly gone, thanksfully, however I experience cultural sexism every day. Not aimed towards me of course. But I work in a very male dominated environment and I see how hard women have to work to be accepted. At least once a week I hear a certain woman only got promoted because of her gender, without any real truth to it.

Hopefully the younger generation everyone despairs of won’t have to live with this cultural bias.

Pepefrogok

Brian? wrote: »

At least once a week I hear a certain woman only got promoted because of her gender, without any real truth to it.

Hang on is that not the "leg up" in action you were advocating a few posts ago? Any wonder many now think women don't deserve promotion etc they have earned due to Neanderthal opinions like yours pushing for positive discrimination!

Brian?

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Hang on is that not the "leg up" in action you were advocating a few posts ago? Any wonder many now think women don't deserve promotion etc they have earned due to Neanderthal opinions like yours pushing for positive discrimination!

Childish name calling. Cop on.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

Hopefully the younger generation everyone despairs of won’t have to live with this cultural bias.

and hopefully they don't replace it with one of their own. Which tends to be the case historically. Every generation thinks they're right. But not for long.