Jordan Peterson interview on C4

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

The House, Senate and presidency are all GOP controllered. The Supreme Court is headed that way. The majority of governors and state governments are GOP controlled. The indoctrination is failing abysmally.

It is failing because most of the people who vote do not go to these Universities and earn useless humanities degrees. When they are on campus or online, they are in their own bubble. But elections quickly burst that as real people, those who do not have their own youtube channel or their own classroom get to have their say.

Look at the reaction to when Hillary failed to get elected. There was a collective explosion of crying, hysteria and suicidal like depression. And that was just on RTE!

As I said in the other post above, the left barely talks about economics anymore. They talk about inequality a bit but they don't spout Marx or any of that stuff. Instead they talk about the 3 ism's. Racism, feminism and sexism.

The world i.e. America (as in their eyes that is the world) is festered with these ism's. It is why people think there is a rape culture on US University Campus. It is why people think the gender pay gap is an example of systemic sexism, its not its much more complicated then that. It is why they think racism is everywhere all the time, hence why minorities are more angry than ever even though they have never had it so good in many ways.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

Where do you think it lies?

I think it currently lies with right wing lobbyists. Like he Koch brothers, the NRA, the Heritage foundation and so on. The next most influential group are evangelicals.

The house, the senate and th presidency are all GOP. Delivered largely by the millions of dollars spent by the groups above.

Only right wing lobbyists? lol

Are there left wing lobbyists, like teacher unions who hold up needed reform for public schools, or immigration lobbyists who make the American visa system a joke?

You mention the Koch Brothers, yet fail to mention people like George Soros, or Mark Zuckerberg, or Google or really all of Silicon Valley who are firmly in the progressive camp.

Lobbyists hold the power alright be they left, right. Take off the blinkers and see it for what it is.

20Cent

markodaly wrote: »

Even if you were right, why is it that voters reject socialistic policies?

Note, that the left today in the US are not really engaged that much on the economic argument, like no one talks about Marx or any of that nonsense, they have instead focused on sexism, feminism and racism almost exclusively. There is a reason why more working class people in the US vote for the GOP. There is a reason why the rust belt, the old democratic stronghold, voted for Trump the last time out. They focused too much on all the 'ism's and intersectionality not enough on the real world and struggles of the working class.

Agreed,the left in the US get few votes, focus on the wrong things and have very little power. So that's why I question why Peterson reckons marxist are "destroying" society etc

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

Only right wing lobbyists? lol

Are there left wing lobbyists, like teacher unions who hold up needed reform for public schools, or immigration lobbyists who make the American visa system a joke?

You mention the Koch Brothers, yet fail to mention people like George Soros, or Mark Zuckerberg, or Google or really all of Silicon Valley who are firmly in the progressive camp.

Lobbyists hold the power alright be they left, right. Take off the blinkers and see it for what it is.

Of course there are left wing lobbyists. But yet again you've chosen to ignore the qualifying part of my post to nit pick.

Both house of Congress. The Supreme court. The Presidency. The majority of state governments. The majority of governors. GOP controlled.

The right wing lobbyists are winning. They control the government. You asked who controlled the US. This is your answer. The people actually making the laws.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

It is failing because most of the people who vote do not go to these Universities and earn useless humanities degrees. When they are on campus or online, they are in their own bubble. But elections quickly burst that as real people, those who do not have their own youtube channel or their own classroom get to have their say.

Look at the reaction to when Hillary failed to get elected. There was a collective explosion of crying, hysteria and suicidal like depression. And that was just on RTE!

As I said in the other post above, the left barely talks about economics anymore. They talk about inequality a bit but they don't spout Marx or any of that stuff. Instead they talk about the 3 ism's. Racism, feminism and sexism.

The world i.e. America (as in their eyes that is the world) is festered with these ism's. It is why people think there is a rape culture on US University Campus. It is why people think the gender pay gap is an example of systemic sexism, its not its much more complicated then that. It is why they think racism is everywhere all the time, hence why minorities are more angry than ever even though they have never had it so good in many ways.

I present objective facts. You counter them with opinions.

The right has a stranglehold on the government. This imagined indoctrination doesn't actually make a blind bit of difference to the reality on the ground in the US. It's just another rallying point for right wing outrage.

silverharp

Brian? wrote: »

I present objective facts. You counter them with opinions.

The right has a stranglehold on the government. This imagined indoctrination doesn't actually make a blind bit of difference to the reality on the ground in the US. It's just another rallying point for right wing outrage.

if you equate right wing with money wanting to make money then they just want to turn a profit with whatever is trendy

markodaly

20Cent wrote: »

Agreed,the left in the US get few votes, focus on the wrong things and have very little power. So that's why I question why Peterson reckons marxist are "destroying" society etc

Because as I have said before, there are other ways to project power.

How many votes do say Silicon Valley get at the polling both, yet they are much more powerful than a whole host of Senators or Congressmen.

It is like that scene from Game of Thrones, when Vary's and Tyrion talk about power. The University system certainly does project power and influence, it just does not translate at the polling booth, but translate in other ways.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

Of course there are left wing lobbyists. But yet again you've chosen to ignore the qualifying part of my post to nit pick.

What part was the qualifying part?

I nit pick because you are just wrong on a whole host of things. You say the Koch brother, I say Soros. You say right wing lobbyists, I say all lobbyists.

Take it on the chin.

Both house of Congress. The Supreme court. The Presidency. The majority of state governments. The majority of governors. GOP controlled.

No, this is not correct. For one, Trump is not even a real Republican. He is a total outsider. The GOP have no idea what to do with him.

Secondly, if the GOP controlled the Supreme court, would they have legalised Gay Marriage and passed Obama care, which mandates citizens purchase health insurance?

The right wing lobbyists are winning. They control the government. You asked who controlled the US. This is your answer. The people actually making the laws.

Winning what exactly?

You cannot tell the wood from the trees, like most people, which is why there is so much anger out.

The left have won the culture war, the right have won the economic war but both sides feel like they are losing because they are losing on the other front, be it social and economic, hence the hate, divide and anger.

markodaly

silverharp wrote: »

if you equate right wing with money wanting to make money then they just want to turn a profit with whatever is trendy

Right wing is anything I do not like, more like it...

HappyAsLarE

Right wing people have what I don’t, so I dislike them.

professore

robindch wrote: »

Haven't listened to more than, I suppose, an hour's worth of his output and like a lot of people with very confused, angry and simplistic views, there's only so much one can take of his uncivil patter before activities like doing the dishes or having a poo seem more attractive.

The funniest bit - or most annoying bit depending on taste - was that angry news report (I'm sure it's linked to above) in which he said he was going to refer to transgender people by whatever pronoun he wanted to, because otherwise, his right to free speech was being denied.

It can only be a matter of time before something like this happens:

Fred: Hey, pleased to meet you Dr Peterson! My name's Fred.
Jordan Peterson: Fred? You don't look like a 'Fred' to me but a 'Jacob'. I'm going to call you Jacob.
Fred: Uh, my name's Fred.
JP: Jacob, you're denying my freedom of speech!
Fred: No, I'm not. I'm telling you my name is Fred.
JP: You are a typical disgusting liberal retard thinking you can dictate how I interact with the world!! I have a right to free speech and I will use that right!!
Fred: Uh, ok. Keep taking the pills.
JP: Only idiots and fascists resort to insults or free speech denial. Which one are you?
Fred: Nurse, nurse!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

His point is the state shouldn't be able to put him n in jail for calling Fred Jacob.

20Cent

markodaly wrote: »

Because as I have said before, there are other ways to project power.

How many votes do say Silicon Valley get at the polling both, yet they are much more powerful than a whole host of Senators or Congressmen.

It is like that scene from Game of Thrones, when Vary's and Tyrion talk about power. The University system certainly does project power and influence, it just does not translate at the polling booth, but translate in other ways.

Would be interested to know what this power the left has in the US.

Looks like the below to me.

Right Wing:
Local and federal government
The presidency
The senate
The house
The judiciary
The budget
International relations
War

The Left Wing.
Berkeley university student policy
What toilets transexuals can use.

Wouldn't have twigged Silicon Valley as left wing. Google and Facebook worked hard to get trump elected. They are against workers rights, equal pay, regulations, paying tax etc more libertarian than lefty. They pay lip service to some social issues but wouldn't call them left wing by any measure.

markodaly

20Cent wrote: »

Would be interested to know what this power the left has in the US.

Looks like the below to me.

Right Wing:
Local and federal government
The presidency
The senate
The house
The judiciary
The budget
International relations
War

What are you on about?
The budget? How many Trillions of Debt are the US in?
All local governments are right wing?
War? WTF?
International relation? Right wing? Explain that one as I am confused.
It just seems you listed all institutions and labeled them right wing without any reason as to why.

The Left Wing.
Berkeley university student policy
What toilets transexuals can use.

You left out the massive social changes the US has under gone the past 40-50 years since Roe vs Wade. Civil Rights, Gay Liberation, Gay Marriage, Women in the workplace and so on.

Not that all these are really left vs right issues per say but we have somehow started talking about 'right wingers' as if they are evil or something or other.

Wouldn't have twigged Silicon Valley as left wing. Google and Facebook worked hard to get trump elected.

What now? Care to share us a link to this? Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page and Sergey Brin worked hard behind the scenes to get Trump elected.

20Cent, you are going off the reservation now with the conspiracy stuff.

They are against workers rights, equal pay, regulations, paying tax etc more libertarian than lefty. They pay lip service to some social issues but wouldn't call them left wing by any measure.

Silicon Valley are the most progressive work places in America for women, yet not good enough for some. However, I suppose they are not 'left' or progressive if you only see left as being an Anarcho-Socialist or a full blown Marxist or Communist.

Which explains a lot of your posts to be honest.

cantdecide

20Cent wrote: »

Would be interested to know what this power the left has in the US.

Looks like the below to me.

Right Wing:
Local and federal government
The presidency
The senate
The house
The judiciary
The budget
International relations
War

The Left Wing.
Berkeley university student policy
What toilets transexuals can use.

Wouldn't have twigged Silicon Valley as left wing. Google and Facebook worked hard to get trump elected. They are against workers rights, equal pay, regulations, paying tax etc more libertarian than lefty. They pay lip service to some social issues but wouldn't call them left wing by any measure.

20Cent

markodaly wrote: »

What are you on about?
The budget? How many Trillions of Debt are the US in?
All local governments are right wing?
War? WTF?
International relation? Right wing? Explain that one as I am confused.
It just seems you listed all institutions and labeled them right wing without any reason as to why.

All those things are currently controlled by the republican party who are right wing. When the republicans didn't control them it was the democrats also right wing.

markodaly wrote: »

You left out the massive social changes the US has under gone the past 40-50 years since Roe vs Wade. Civil Rights, Gay Liberation, Gay Marriage, Women in the workplace and so on.

Not that all these are really left vs right issues per say but we have somehow started talking about 'right wingers' as if they are evil or something or other.


What now? Care to share us a link to this? Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page and Sergey Brin worked hard behind the scenes to get Trump elected.

20Cent, you are going off the reservation now with the conspiracy stuff.

Facebook, google and twitter had employees embedded in the trump campaign working with them. It's been in the news a bit lately.

markodaly wrote: »

Silicon Valley are the most progressive work places in America for women, yet not good enough for some. However, I suppose they are not 'left' or progressive if you only see left as being an Anarcho-Socialist or a full blown Marxist or Communist.

Which explains a lot of your posts to be honest.

They are progressive just not left wing. Workers rights, regulations etc are not things they support.

I'm just saying that all this talk about Marxists controlling loads of power and working together to "destroy" the US is a figment of petersons imagination. All the power is in right wing hands.

markodaly

20Cent wrote: »

All those things are currently controlled by the republican party who are right wing. When the republicans didn't control them it was the democrats also right wing.

All local districts are controlled by the GOP. Eh, no they are not.
Elaborate on this point, how war and international institutions are right wing. As I am sure I am not the only one who is baffled at that notion.

Facebook, google and twitter had employees embedded in the trump campaign working with them. It's been in the news a bit lately.

Again, you are wrong there.

They sold data to organisations who worked for these campaigns, which is an entirely different to your own claim that Facebook and Google worked hard to get Trump elected.

They are progressive just not left wing. Workers rights, regulations etc are not things they support.

Ah, so they are left wing but not left wing enough for you. The no true Scotsman fallacy.

I'm just saying that all this talk about Marxists controlling loads of power and working together to "destroy" the US is a figment of petersons imagination. All the power is in right wing hands.

Well if you are a Marxist, everything is controlled by the right, unless of course you live in Cuba or North Korea. It is par of the course.

20Cent

markodaly wrote: »

All local districts are controlled by the GOP. Eh, no they are not.
Elaborate on this point, how war and international institutions are right wing. As I am sure I am not the only one who is baffled at that notion.

A right wing party controls the presidency, the house and the senate at the moment. If you don't think their policies are right wing enough then it's their fault not "the left" or socialists.
The socialist party in the US's highest ever result in the presidential election was .01%.

markodaly wrote: »

Again, you are wrong there.

They sold data to organisations who worked for these campaigns, which is an entirely different to your own claim that Facebook and Google worked hard to get Trump elected.

If you spend enough on social media they will send around employees to your organisation to help you maximise the effect of your spend. This was done with the trump campaign. Facebook, twitter and google employees had workstations at trumps digital campaign HQ.

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, so they are left wing but not left wing enough for you. The no true Scotsman fallacy.

Well if you are a Marxist, everything is controlled by the right, unless of course you live in Cuba or North Korea. It is par of the course.

Wedge issues like guns, abortion LGBTQA rights etc are used to make the democrats and republicans look like different parties but despite all the noise on these issues they aren't really that important to the bigger picture. Silicon Valley isn't really left wing, they want as little regulation as possible. They can do the outwardly progressive stuff like gender neutral toilets but besides some cosmetic things they aren't all that left wing.

Brian?

markodaly wrote: »

What part was the qualifying part?

I nit pick because you are just wrong on a whole host of things. You say the Koch brother, I say Soros. You say right wing lobbyists, I say all lobbyists.

Take it on the chin.

The qualifying part is where I pointed out the the Republicans control most facets of government. - fact

No, this is not correct. For one, Trump is not even a real Republican. He is a total outsider. The GOP have no idea what to do with him.

Trump is currently the leader of the Republican party - fact.

Secondly, if the GOP controlled the Supreme court, would they have legalised Gay Marriage and passed Obama care, which mandates citizens purchase health insurance?

It wasn't Republican controlled then. It leans republican now. Within the next 3 years Trump will probably get another appointment to make it outright conservative.

Winning what exactly?

As I have said repeatedly: Elections. Lots of them. State, federal and presidential.

You cannot tell the wood from the trees, like most people, which is why there is so much anger out.

The left have won the culture war, the right have won the economic war but both sides feel like they are losing because they are losing on the other front, be it social and economic, hence the hate, divide and anger.

Again, I am presenting facts. You are countering these with opinions. As Dr. Peterson likes to point out, feelings are not facts.

By any objective measure, the USA is controlled by the right. The right being a conglomeration of Evangelicals, Conservatives, Laissez-Faire capitalists and so on. They have been winning big for a while now, with Obama being the obvious exception. And Obama was not left wing. He was socially progressive. On economic issues he was centre/centre right.

Dyr

It's worth noting that the new left, ( who are neither new nor left) do not seek elected positions of power, who's gonna vote for them? They prefer to seek positions of influence and control.

You can see this in the mainstream media in the US where the rise of Trump completely caught an insular media off guard. You can see it in the current travails of the younger social media companies like facebook, twitter and google where fairly extremist types found a sympathetic environment and are going to screw them. This is why you're seeing an almost total divide in America between the fourth estate and everyone else.

It's also possibly why some colleges have gone bat**** insane, they are now the only strongholds remaining for the loony intersectionalists in a society that refused to drink their kool-aid.

20Cent

Bambi wrote: »

It's worth noting that the new left, ( who are neither new nor left) do not seek elected positions of power, who's gonna vote for them? They prefer to seek positions of influence and control.

You can see this in the mainstream media in the US where the rise of Trump completely caught an insular media off guard. You can see it in the current travails of the younger social media companies like facebook, twitter and google where fairly extremist types found a sympathetic environment and are going to screw them. This is why you're seeing an almost total divide in America between the fourth estate and everyone else.

It's also possibly why some colleges have gone bat**** insane, they are now the only strongholds remaining for the loony intersectionalists in a society that refused to drink their kool-aid.

Who or what is behind this conspiracy?
What are their aims?

Dyr

20Cent wrote: »

Who or what is behind this conspiracy?
What are their aims?

There's a conspiracy?

20Cent

Bambi wrote: »

There's a conspiracy?

This new left you speak of. Involved in academia and the media. Are they connected in anyway? What is their aim in your opinion?

Dyr

Ah you're hallucinating, fair enough

Outlaw Pete

20Cent wrote: »

What are their aims?

The user told you:

Bambi wrote: »

...to seek positions of influence and control.

20Cent

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The user told you:

Influence and control for what purpose?
Whats their goal is my question.
Also are they connected to each other.

Sand

Brian? wrote: »

By any objective measure, the USA is controlled by the right. The right being a conglomeration of Evangelicals, Conservatives, Laissez-Faire capitalists and so on. They have been winning big for a while now, with Obama being the obvious exception. And Obama was not left wing. He was socially progressive. On economic issues he was centre/centre right.

By any objective measure, the USA is controlled by money and corporate interests. There is no right/left divide. Democrats represent new money interests, Republicans represent old money interests. Superficial divisions such as gun control only serve to drum up the base on either side.

Brian?

Sand wrote: »

By any objective measure, the USA is controlled by money and corporate interests. There is no right/left divide. Democrats represent new money interests, Republicans represent old money interests. Superficial divisions such as gun control only serve to drum up the base on either side.

I agree for the most part, which is my point. The Democratic Party are not a left wing alternative to the Republicans. The US is controlled by whoever spend the most money lobbying, lately it’s the Republicans who are taking in the most.

The only slightly left leaning influence on lobbying are the unions, and the unions can’t get near the spending power of the Koch’s et al.

Brian?

Bambi wrote: »

It's worth noting that the new left, ( who are neither new nor left) do not seek elected positions of power, who's gonna vote for them? They prefer to seek positions of influence and control.

Who are you talking about?

You can see this in the mainstream media in the US where the rise of Trump completely caught an insular media off guard. You can see it in the current travails of the younger social media companies like facebook, twitter and google where fairly extremist types found a sympathetic environment and are going to screw them. This is why you're seeing an almost total divide in America between the fourth estate and everyone else.

It's also possibly why some colleges have gone bat**** insane, they are now the only strongholds remaining for the loony intersectionalists in a society that refused to drink their kool-aid.

So we’re agreed. The left have little or no influence and even less power in the US.

markodaly

20Cent wrote: »

All those things are currently controlled by the republican party who are right wing. When the republicans didn't control them it was the democrats also right wing.

Lovely, but tell me again how War and international relations are right wing.
What next, Cancer and Aids are right wing?:D

Facebook, google and twitter had employees embedded in the trump campaign working with them.

Yet again, you are wrong. Do you have a festish for telling lies and untruths?
So, again, tell me how Google and Facebook worked very hard to get Trump elected. Give me something solid rather than a tepid one liner.

They are progressive just not left wing. Workers rights, regulations etc are not things they support.

Again, the no true Scotsman's fallacy. They are left wing but not left wing enough for you.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

I'm just saying that all this talk about Marxists controlling loads of power and working together to "destroy" the US is a figment of petersons imagination. All the power is in right wing hands.

If you think like a Marxist, unless you live in North Korea or Cuba then of course everything would appear to be right wing. That is a reflection not on reality but on your own extremist views.

And as has been said numerous times there are other ways to project power.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

The qualifying part is where I pointed out the the Republicans control most facets of government. - fact

The qualifying part, which you mentioned in another post entirely? I didn't know you were writing chapters in each post.

It wasn't Republican controlled then. It leans republican now.

Tell me when exactly this happened, as Trump only appointed one person to the SCOTUS, while Obama appointed two. Telling porkies?

As I have said repeatedly: Elections. Lots of them. State, federal and presidential.

This can be viewed twofold. One elections are one way to project power and as you and I both agree, it is lobbyists and money interests who control power. You just see it as being the realm of the Koch Brothers, while I see it as both the Koch Brothers and Soros and everyone in between.

Another way of looking at is, is that the general American public outright reject your ideas of what left wing is, be it Marxist, Socialist or Socialist Libertarian.

By any objective measure, the USA is controlled by the right. The right being a conglomeration of Evangelicals, Conservatives, Laissez-Faire capitalists and so on. They have been winning big for a while now, with Obama being the obvious exception. And Obama was not left wing. He was socially progressive. On economic issues he was centre/centre right

America economically is a country that promoted free markets since its foundation. Just because you view the world in Marxist terms does not mean that everyone else is a right winger. You are just showing yourself up here.

France has a different economic and social philosophy than say Germany. Them the breaks. Do you want the whole world to confirm to one single view, your view? A little bit authoritarian don't you think, you don't like diversity?

Obama had a super majority in 2008-2010. The mid terms will likely end up with a democratic controlled congress come November. These things normally go in cycles.

With Evangelicals, Conservatives, Laissez-Faire capitalists, you can add Unions, Activists, Silicon Valley, Mainstream Media, Hollywood and Universities to the list.

I am not stupid enough to believe that one single entity controls power in the US, nor am I stupid enough that one wing controls power in the US, unless you think one wing is those with money. But I qualify that with the level of stupidity.