Jordan Peterson interview on C4

mcmoustache

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's really strange to focus on in a country like Ireland. It's pointlessly divisive. It's imported yank **** that puts all of us at each other's throats over nonsense and makes the social solidarity required to address serious issues like housing, health and inequality unattainable.

I hope it's a phase that people are going through but I fear that new suckers will be along to replace those that eventually realise that they were suckered into this shíte.


If you were to project what you see on the internet onto society in general, you'd swear there was a civil war going on right now and that everyone was either a hippy or a nazi. Instead, most of the Irish population has a rather centrist and pragmatic view on things as you can see how we vote - the fringe wannabe populist ideological loonies are kept on the fringes and our mainstream parties aim for consensus.


That's why I get annoyed when I hear those red-flag terms described earlier whether it's by leftie or an alt-righter.

Yer Da sells Avon

Produce evidence for my question? That's not how questions work, Mick.

Are you a 'proper man', Micheál?

batgoat

Given our last two referendums, we've voted incredibly liberally on issues. The silent majority seem non existent.

Yer Da sells Avon

Would a 'proper man' flounce off like that?

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Mad delays down at this. Here's a pic of the queue at the roundabout right now being diverted down towards Point Village.. . showtime 8pm apparently.





Gonna rain soon too I bet.

Talk about a sausage fest

Pa ElGrande

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's really strange to focus on in a country like Ireland. It's pointlessly divisive. It's imported yank **** that puts all of us at each other's throats over nonsense and makes the social solidarity required to address serious issues like housing, health and inequality unattainable.

Many people who identify as left wing in this country have imported the material from an ideology that metastasised in the United States and been actively promoting it via the Education and media channels here in Ireland since the Communist bloc fell at the end of the 80s. You will see this clearly in the divide between the old and new generation left in Ireland as the old left tends to push for improvement in living and working conditions, but since those problems have mostly been solved in Ireland since the 90s, the new left is left with virtue signalling a playbook based on the imaginary hobgoblins contained in the material they have imported.


These imported views don't sit well with many people in this country and across the Western world in general however they have no answers to this yet and need to learn ways to assess and resist it's influence which is not easy given official Ireland endorses this ideology. Why for instance does RTE carry this article "Here come the lobsters"? Whose position are the state media endorsing with this? RTE gave up the pretence of even handedness with the Lisbon treaty.


What is emerging is a resistance to this new left i.e. the post modernists and perhaps a rediscovery of the liberal philosophy as the left liberals divorce themselves from progressivism and begin rediscover liberalisms classical roots. It is the classical liberal branch of political opinion that Peterson comes from.

CrankyHaus

mcmoustache wrote: »

I hope it's a phase that people are going through but I fear that new suckers will be along to replace those that eventually realise that they were suckered into this shíte.


If you were to project what you see on the internet onto society in general, you'd swear there was a civil war going on right now and that everyone was either a hippy or a nazi. Instead, most of the Irish population has a rather centrist and pragmatic view on things as you can see how we vote - the fringe wannabe populist ideological loonies are kept on the fringes and our mainstream parties aim for consensus.


That's why I get annoyed when I hear those red-flag terms described earlier whether it's by leftie or an alt-righter.

That's my attitude too. However one side is officially endorsed and broadcast through the media, with any unbelievers or heretics cast out onto the bonfires of outrage, while the other is derided.

Do you really think some red pill bros can ruin your career or social position if you publicly disagree with them?
However their adversaries in the ctrl-left certainly can, and will.

Dyr

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

but since those problems have mostly been solved in Ireland since the 90s,

They have in their **** been solved.

What you're seeing is that the right essentially won the economic argument in the 80s -90s and the left won the social argument in the 90s. That's where the end of history argument comes from. The thing is that now both of those realities are crumbling, economically and socially.


Elements of both sides lost the run of themselves once they "won" the argument because there was no credible pushback against them. The right did it with extreme deregulation and the left is doing it with extreme identity politics

Galwayguy35

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree, but this kinda imported stuff is all too easy to get sucked into.

EG
This part could be written by an American college student. "Beta/Alpha/SJW/Cuck/Rape culture/Patriarchy/Woke/MGTOW/Red Pill" and all that fuckwittery is becoming part of the background noise in too much discourse. Like I say it's easy to get sucked into it.

I saw him calling the lads handing out the leaflets Alpha males and couldn't resist but I take your point.

I still think he's a tosser though, he'd probably wet himself if they confronted him on his ignorance and bad manners.

The Bishop Basher

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

These imported views don't sit well with many people in this country and across the Western world in general however they have no answers to this yet and need to learn ways to assess and resist it's influence which is not easy given official Ireland endorses this ideology. Why for instance does RTE carry this article "Here come the lobsters"? Whose position are the state media endorsing with this? RTE gave up the pretence of even handedness with the Lisbon treaty.

I just tried to read that article. Wow..

As long as people like Jordan Peterson are annoying the sh1te out of people like the author of that article then they’ll have my full support.

I get more and more right wing by the day listening to these gob****es..

take everything

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep, just like the "Red pill" yahoos might label a feminist event as a bunch of "fat ugly lesbians who can't get a man". Add "purple haired" for spice. The script writes itself and the same narrative goes on with yer man's thoughts. Two sides of the same well polished coin.

A near certainty in any identity politic is a self awareness and irony bypass. They don't quite understand the terms and if by some miracle they do they never ascribe them to themselves.

Another near certainty is a complete blanking of what the others may say or claim. Not debate mind you, that would be a refreshing change, but no the shutters slam down. Take yer man's article and the leaflet he ripped up(I'll believe that to oblige him...)



We'll gloss over the "Men under siege"!! type rhetoric, that's another given in this sort of thing. However each bullet point on that leaflet is a fact, backed up by government research and stats. But heaven forbid rather than have a debate about that, even an attempt to question the points, or disprove them with his own stats and facts, his instinctive go to response is to petulantly rip it up to show his "woke" status to his tribe.

As usual Wibbs gets the balance right.
Woke arseholes hoping women will like them for being woke arseholes will be woke arseholes.

And guys who deep down don't like women will continue to drink the redpill koolaid neat.

That the woke arseholes are as unlikeable as the latter says a lot tbh.

Pa ElGrande

The multinational sector (MNC) plays a major role in Irish employment via their HR departments are importing that ideology wholesale into Ireland, get ready for gender bias training if you have not already encountered it, you do want to be a loyal corporate citizen don't you?

Men must be on board to help eradicate workplace gender bias

You will find that virtual signalling is rampant throughout management in the MNC sector.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQhbkocAF94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I_CEzTqisI

There are quite a few companies flogging unconscious bias training to the corporate and government sectors one of these is Men Advocating Real Change (MARC) which is a company controlled by an organisation called Catalyst which was founded in the 1960s by Felice Schwartz for the advancement of women in the workplace and is someone whose opinions would fly in the face of the sociologists who push their agenda there are no differences between the sexes see Management Women and the New Facts of Life.


Whose interests are being served by this? Why are white men in particular being singled out for discrimination (In the US Asian men are being included in the same category) and as a result do they not have legitimate reason to ask what is going on here and make sense of it and what their role is in society?

DickSwiveller Returns

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The multinational sector (MNC) plays a major role in Irish employment via their HR departments are importing that ideology wholesale into Ireland, get ready for gender bias training if you have not already encountered it, you do want to be a loyal corporate citizen don't you?

Men must be on board to help eradicate workplace gender bias

You will find that virtual signalling is rampant throughout management in the MNC sector.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQhbkocAF94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I_CEzTqisI

There are quite a few companies flogging unconscious bias training to the corporate and government sectors one of these is Men Advocating Real Change (MARC) which is a company controlled by an organisation called Catalyst which was founded in the 1960s by Felice Schwartz for the advancement of women in the workplace and is someone whose opinions would fly in the face of the sociologists who push their agenda there are no differences between the sexes see Management Women and the New Facts of Life.


Whose interests are being served by this? Why are white men in particular being singled out for discrimination (In the US Asian men are being included in the same category) and as a result do they not have legitimate reason to ask what is going on here and make sense of it and what their role is in society?

Unconscious bias makes no sense. Very Orwellian.

Akrasia

20Cent wrote: »

I blame Peterson for that though because he isn't making himself clear and people are forced to try and figure out what he means.

Yeah. JP says trans activists have similar ideology to Pol Pot and it's everyone else's fault for asking him wtf he's actually on about

Pa ElGrande

Bambi wrote: »

They have in their **** been solved.

The standard of living of the population on this island has risen by unimaginable levels compared to the 1980s when I grew up when the popular refrain was would the last person to leave the country turn the lights out?. The level of poverty is a fraction of what it was then and by every key performance indicator (KPI) the population is better off since then.

Bambi wrote: »

What you're seeing is that the right essentially won the economic argument in the 80s -90s and the left won the social argument in the 90s. That's where the end of history argument comes from. The thing is that now both of those realities are crumbling, economically and socially.

I don't agree with that assessment, what I see happening is a consequence of a massive worldwide debt binge being built up through insanely low or negative interest rates that funds the social and corporate welfare state hiding fiscal mismanagement while at the same time destroying the pension and insurance funds. I'm expecting this to reset through a collapse in government bonds and a wave of sovereign debt defaults especially in Europe. This could be a nasty period economically similar to the 1930s that was also triggered by sovereign debt defaults and one that coalesced along the fault lines that had been building since world war I.

What we are seeing today is the welfare model has become untenable, at the bottom of our social hierarchies the lower income class are not progressing, while at the middle income taxation rates are increasing to pay for corporate and social welfare programs while the security of a guaranteed retirement for them is being removed.

The debt crisis on 2008 was Ireland's opportunity to reform, we opted instead to maintain the status quo along with other countries in Europe and paper over the problems with bailouts funded by the ECB. Interest rates will not stay down forever, there are hardly any private buyers of government bonds left and the pension funds have been gobbling up property instead aided by NAMA.


Nobody likes reform and the longer we hold off the more painful it will be. In my opinion Jordan Petersons advice to young men is vital since it will be on the shoulders of men that the reform will be built when the old system collapses.

Franz Von Peppercorn

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Most amusing. I used the word ‘hatred’ in the LON thread and nobody could understand how anything said could possibly be seen as hatred. I wonder if those same characters will jump in here too. I doubt it.

Is he actually helping people? I’d be shocked if they actually follow what he’s saying. Transcend metaphysical substrate and all that guff.

You are shocked that people who are probably university educated can’t understand metaphysical ideas? Not that it seems important to his instructions anyway.

And not am I defending his ideas, I don’t particularly like too much mysticism. On the other hand his rise to fame outside Canada isn’t because of those ideas but because of the very interview which the title of this thread.

Brian?

batgoat wrote: »

Given our last two referendums, we've voted incredibly liberally on issues. The silent majority seem non existent.

Actually, both of the referenda showed the “silent majority” were left leaning social liberals. The quiet voter was actually more progressive than the vocal voter, a strangely Irish phenomena.

Pa ElGrande

Akrasia wrote: »

Yeah. JP says trans activists have similar ideology to Pol Pot and it's everyone else's fault for asking him wtf he's actually on about

Petersons point is that Equity (Equality of Outcome) is evil and tyrannical and is the basis of the group identity ideology that opened the door for the rise of Lenin,Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot who wholesale slaughtered populations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAiDAgLcIbY

Franz Von Peppercorn

Akrasia wrote: »

Yeah. JP says trans activists have similar ideology to Pol Pot and it's everyone else's fault for asking him wtf he's actually on about

Maoists, not Pol Pol (nor even Mao himself).

He’s talking about how Maoism worked in Chinese campuses in the 60s. Professors were judged on ideological purity by their students and had to ritually apologise in front of large groups of students or be condemned, fired or worse.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

They have in their **** been solved.

What you're seeing is that the right essentially won the economic argument in the 80s -90s and the left won the social argument in the 90s. That's where the end of history argument comes from. The thing is that now both of those realities are crumbling, economically and socially.


Elements of both sides lost the run of themselves once they "won" the argument because there was no credible pushback against them. The right did it with extreme deregulation and the left is doing it with extreme identity politics

I'd argue that the improvements in the late 80s and into the 90s allowed the left to be hijacked towards the "centre" which was really the right. The gap left was filled by the current identity politics left.

Brian?

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Petersons point is that Equity (Equality of Outcome) is evil and tyrannical and is the basis of the group identity ideology that opened the door for the rise of Lenin,Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot who wholesale slaughtered populations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAiDAgLcIbY

One of JPs straw men. Who’s arguing for equity of outcome? It’s not a goal of any left wing ideology.

HappyAsLarE

Brian? wrote: »

One of JPs straw men. Who’s arguing for equity of outcome? It’s not a goal of any left wing ideology.

Haha. Good one.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

One of JPs straw men. Who’s arguing for equity of outcome? It’s not a goal of any left wing ideology.

Gender quotas. I know the words are different but it's the same thing. Same with wage "equality", racial quotas etc.

JMNolan

Brian? wrote: »

One of JPs straw men. Who’s arguing for equity of outcome? It’s not a goal of any left wing ideology.

Are you claiming there is no left leaning organisation aiming for equality of outcome? None at all?

DickSwiveller Returns

Brian? wrote: »

One of JPs straw men. Who’s arguing for equity of outcome? It’s not a goal of any left wing ideology.

Gender quotas??

Dyr

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The standard of living of the population on this island has risen by unimaginable levels compared to the 1980s when I grew up when the popular refrain was would the last person to leave the country turn the lights out?. The level of poverty is a fraction of what it was then and by every key performance indicator (KPI) the population is better off since then.
.

Interesting. You going to link to these KPIs? 80's through to now obviously.

WinnyThePoo

Wibbs wrote: »

Ideologues of all stripes don't. The "right" are just as fact avoidant. It's how ideologues and polarised ideologies operate.

Never a truer statement. Both left and right extremes are as bad as eachother.

Pa ElGrande

Brian? wrote: »

One of JPs straw men. Who’s arguing for equity of outcome? It’s not a goal of any left wing ideology.

Once the abortion referendum has passed in their favour the posters went up with "What next for equality in Ireland?"

Well here is your answer

Womenomics: 7 steps to make gender equality the new normal


5 Things Employers Can Do To Improve Gender Equality In The Workplace


Calls for gender equality considerations in next budget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnOUFS3lUpE

Brian?

JMNolan wrote: »

Are you claiming there is no left leaning organisation aiming for equality of outcome? None at all?

No. Aiming for equality of outcome is fine. If it a little delusional, as it can’t be achieved.

Wanting to enforce equality of outcome is absolutely not fine.

To the best of my knowledge enforcing equality of outcom is not part of any left wing ideology.

What people on the left should want, and as far as I’m aware all want, is equality of opportunity.

There is only one legally enforced measure in Ireland that I’m aware of and that’s a gender quota of candidates standing for election. I’m open to correction.

People need to realise that what companies do in terms of diversity management is entirely their own decision in Ireland.

Brian?

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

Once the abortion referendum has passed in their favour the posters went up with "What next for equality in Ireland?"

Well here is your answer

Womenomics: 7 steps to make gender equality the new normal


5 Things Employers Can Do To Improve Gender Equality In The Workplace


Calls for gender equality considerations in next budget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnOUFS3lUpE

Honestly horse, I am not going to read any of those links or watch that video. If the points are worth making, why can’t you make them in your own words? Debating links is a waste of time as I can’t address the author.