Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Lux23

Here's a really tragic example of how aspects of lad culture are killing me.

"A stag night used to mean a few drinks down the pub. Now it’s a test of masculinity fuelled by cheap airfares and alcohol. Sirin Kale hears about those who lost so much more than just a night’s memories"

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/apr/08/when-stag-nights-go-wrong

The Bishop Basher

Brian? wrote: »

Toxic masculinity has a very real meaning, which can be misused. SJW is a term invented purely as an insult. There’s a world of a difference.

Any self respecting male who uses the term “toxic masculinity” must have had his balls chopped off. It has no meaning other then a term by which sjw types can beat up us males who don’t conform to this PC bollix.

I don’t see sjw as insulting as you do. I’m betting there are plenty of angst ridden teenagers and UCD students from D4 and it’s surround who’d be only too delighted to be branded with the sjw title..

Professor Moriarty

Rennaws wrote: »

Any self respecting male who uses the term “toxic masculinity” must have had his balls chopped off. It has no meaning other then a term by which sjw types can beat up us males who don’t conform to this PC bollix.

I don’t see sjw as insulting as you do. I’m betting there are plenty of angst ridden teenagers and UCD students from D4 and it’s surround who’d be only too delighted to be branded with the sjw title..

Damn Libtards eh?

Maw, where's muh gun? Got to shoot me some goddam snowflakes.

The Bishop Basher

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Damn Libtards eh?

Maw, where's muh gun? Got to shoot me some goddam snowflakes.

Funny that. I do own guns. I don't shoot snowflakes though..

But if your intention was to stereotype me then well done, you're not far off despite the fact that I don't have an american accent and my mum wouldn't know where to find my guns.. :pac:

kunst nugget

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

DEFTLEFTHAND

We must get the boys to suppress their nature.

They must be rewired by any means necessary.

Brian?

Rennaws wrote: »

Any self respecting male who uses the term “toxic masculinity” must have had his balls chopped off. It has no meaning other then a term by which sjw types can beat up us males who don’t conform to this PC bollix.

I don’t see sjw as insulting as you do. I’m betting there are plenty of angst ridden teenagers and UCD students from D4 and it’s surround who’d be only too delighted to be branded with the sjw title..

I use toxic masculinity. I explained exactly what I meant, it's not actually about beating up men who don't conform. It's about recognising a problem that exists in order to help men.

My balls are still in place though. A fine hefty pair they are too. PM for pics.

Brian?

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

We must get the boys to suppress their nature.

They must be rewired by any means necessary.

Explain how learning to express your emotions is suppressing your nature?

Brian?

kubjones wrote: »

I'm arguing to the existence of both.

The language itself is implying that there is something "toxic" about aspects of masculinity, the inference of which isn't helpful.

SJW is completely pejorative though and I agree its definition is very broad, mostly insulting.

I agree that some masculine cultural norms are damaging but they need to be addressed individually. Appreciating a man's calm demeanor doesn't deserve to be considered "toxic."

A person that is open with their emotions doesn't deserve to be called an SJW. Both of these terms deserve to exist, but the extent to which they are used needs to be considered, like all language.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I would never use Toxic masculinity as a pejorative. It's a description of something not someone. It's not a label applied to a person or a group of people.

SJW is used to lump people together and devalue their opinions.

Lux23

kunst nugget wrote: »

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

It's the term people have a problem with, not what it actually describes. I haven't met every man in the world, but I have witnessed how certain aspects of the male psyche have had a catastrophic effect on the mental health of my partner, brother and father. All three confessed how they didn't know how to talk about what they were going through, is this not a common theme? But again the phrase is like a red rag to a bull and some can't be bothered to try and understand it.

blinding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6Ku_3wBsNg

Great chat here with Jordan Peterson and Camile Paglia .

DEFTLEFTHAND

Brian? wrote: »

Explain how learning to express your emotions is suppressing your nature?

I'm talking about the boisterous behaviour we see out of young males in groups.

7aubzxk43m2sni

kunst nugget wrote: »

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

Absolutely agree

7aubzxk43m2sni

Lux23 wrote: »

It's the term people have a problem with, not what it actually describes. I haven't met every man in the world, but I have witnessed how certain aspects of the male psyche have had a catastrophic effect on the mental health of my partner, brother and father. All three confessed how they didn't know how to talk about what they were going through, is this not a common theme? But again the phrase is like a red rag to a bull and some can't be bothered to try and understand it.

Sure, there's a common theme of men being poor at expressing emotion.

I don't think it's about being bothered to understand the term, it's just that "toxic masculinity" implies something inherent to all men that is very negative.

What's wrong with saying "men tend to be poor at dealing with / expressing their emotions" ?

RandomName2

Brian? wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree. I would never use Toxic masculinity as a pejorative. It's a description of something not someone. It's not a label applied to a person or a group of people.

SJW is used to lump people together and devalue their opinions.

Well then you mustn't have had your eyes or ears open the last two years, particularly with respect to american culture, with men in general lumped into toxic masculinity, rather than it describing a particular set of psychological features.

Granted that there's use for the term. There'd be use for the term toxic femininity (in terms of peer pressure of physical appearance, etc.) but that term isn't used, because in gender studies the narrative is typically 'men are the problem'. The 'lingerie floor' type of feminism.

The same problems associated with the term SJW applies in relation to 'toxic masculinity'. It's a useful term, but generally used in a perjorative sense. One of the differences is that you could simply describe the psychological aspects you are referring to when talking about the non-perjorative 'toxic-masculinity' whereas SJW is a little more problematic.

The Bishop Basher

Brian? wrote: »

I use toxic masculinity. I explained exactly what I meant, it's not actually about beating up men who don't conform. It's about recognising a problem that exists in order to help men.

Ok. Even if I get your point. I still believe using that term is insulting to all men. If using the term makes half your audience switch off then surely that’s good enough reason to avoid it.

Brian? wrote: »

My balls are still in place though. A fine hefty pair they are too. PM for pics.

I'm honestly humbled by your kind offer but will decline on this occasion. It did make me laugh though.. :pac:

Brian?

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well then you mustn't have had your eyes or ears open the last two years, particularly with respect to american culture, with men in general lumped into toxic masculinity, rather than it describing a particular set of psychological features.

I must have, because I've never heard this happen. I don't pay much attention to American culture anymore.

Granted that there's use for the term. There'd be use for the term toxic femininity (in terms of peer pressure of physical appearance, etc.) but that term isn't used, because in gender studies the narrative is typically 'men are the problem'. The 'lingerie floor' type of feminism.

The same problems associated with the term SJW applies in relation to 'toxic masculinity'. It's a useful term, but generally used in a perjorative sense. One of the differences is that you could simply describe the psychological aspects you are referring to when talking about the non-perjorative 'toxic-masculinity' whereas SJW is a little more problematic.

I dunno anymore.

Brian?

Rennaws wrote: »

Ok. Even if I get your point. I still believe using that term is insulting to all men. If using the term makes half your audience switch off then surely that’s good enough reason to avoid it.

So you feel I should moderate my language in case it turns people off? I hardly think that’s fair.

I'm honestly humbled by your kind offer but will decline on this occasion. It did make me laugh though.. :pac:

It’s not the first time my balls have humbled someone, not to brag.

Brian?

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

Sure, there's a common theme of men being poor at expressing emotion.

I don't think it's about being bothered to understand the term, it's just that "toxic masculinity" implies something inherent to all men that is very negative.

What's wrong with saying "men tend to be poor at dealing with / expressing their emotions" ?

What’s wrong with saying toxic masculinity now that we’re all friends?

DickSwiveller Returns

Brian? wrote: »

What’s wrong with saying toxic masculinity now that we’re all friends?

I was out in Dublin last weekend and a group of women attending a hen party where shouting and roaring, grabbing men's arses and being generally anti social. It's not the first time I've seen hen parties acting in this way. Is this an example of toxic femininity?

Giraffe Box

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I was out in Dublin last weekend and a group of women attending a hen party where shouting and roaring, grabbing men's arses and being generally anti social. It's not the first time I've seen hen parties acting in this way. Is this an example of toxic femininity?

No. That's intoxicated femininity!

Ulysses Gaze

Giraffe Box wrote: »

No. That's intoxicated femininity!

Brian?

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I was out in Dublin last weekend and a group of women attending a hen party where shouting and roaring, grabbing men's arses and being generally anti social. It's not the first time I've seen hen parties acting in this way. Is this an example of toxic femininity?

No. That's acting the gimp

cloudatlas

kunst nugget wrote: »

I do find the term toxic masculinity a complete bullshít buzzword that almost pathologises people being cúnts but implies that it is a weakness that all men suffer from.

Reminds me of the objection of Iona Institute Etal at being called 'homophobes' the need to control terminology, language and to always reduce offences to something softer and more benign so that a state of comfort and denial can be reached.

kunst nugget

cloudatlas wrote: »

Reminds me of the objection of Iona Institute Etal at being called 'homophobes' the need to control terminology, language and to always reduce offences to something softer and more benign so that a state of comfort and denial can be reached.

I express a dislike for a phrase and it somehow puts me on a par with the Iona institute? Jog on, would you.

Christ, the irony of you talking about other people needing to control terminology and language...

The Bishop Basher

Brian? wrote: »

So you feel I should moderate my language in case it turns people off? I hardly think that’s fair.

Well let’s start with something my mother taught me from a very youug age.. life’s not fair, get used to it..

I don’t think you should do anything you don’t want to do. I choose my words carefully.. go back and re-read them if you didn’t understand them the first time. I offered a suggestion which, as always, you are free to ignore.

Brian? wrote: »

It’s not the first time my balls have humbled someone, not to brag.

Your balls didnt’t humble me. Your offer did. Why do I have to keep explaining my words when all you have to do is read them as they’re written.

I write in clear English. I don’t embed hidden meanings in what I write. You can take it literally and at face value. Anything else you attach to those words as you seem so fond of doing, is entirely of your own imagination.

I’m happy to debate but not when you keep twisting my words to suit your argument.

It’s tiring and not worth the effort tbh

7aubzxk43m2sni

Brian? wrote: »

No. That's acting the gimp

But a bunch of lads acting the gimp on a stag is toxic masculinity? How does that work?

JMNolan

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

But a bunch of lads acting the gimp on a stag is toxic masculinity? How does that work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_are_wonderful_effect

Strangely enough, people that subscribe to this (like Brian) can't view women as individuals.

Brian?

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

But a bunch of lads acting the gimp on a stag is toxic masculinity? How does that work?

Did I say it was? You’ve confused me with another poster.

Brian?

JMNolan wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_are_wonderful_effect

Strangely enough, people that subscribe to this (like Brian) can't view women as individuals.

Excuse me. I don’t subscribe to this. Why do you think I do?