Discovery 1x12 – "Vaulting Ambition" [** SPOILERS **]

Bacchus

pixelburp wrote: »

Someone on another site was speculating though: if the Mirror universe is indeed the reverse of all things, would the Borg exist there & what would they be like? Perhaps a benevolent hive mind, one that invites rather than enslaves, and still retains peoples' personalities despite joining the Collective? It'd be interesting to see.

My understanding of the mirror universe is that it's not a "mirror" strictly speaking. It's not all opposites. It's basically the same as the prime universe but humanity took a more violent course and that had ripples across the galaxy. So a good person isn't automatically a bad person, they just grew up in a universe where humanity is generally a back stabbing lot.

Bacchus

Another great episode btw. The Lorca thing was on the cards for a while now but it was still very well done and accounts for the shift in tone from earlier in the season that took some getting used too. It's great to see the team behind the show set up and execute their vision so well.

Only quibble with the episode is Michael inviting the Discovery into what is so obviously a trap. Here's hoping there was a "by the book" moment in her message to Saru.

pixelburp

Bacchus wrote: »

My understanding of the mirror universe is that it's not a "mirror" strictly speaking. It's not all opposites. It's basically the same as the prime universe but humanity took a more violent course and that had ripples across the galaxy. So a good person isn't automatically a bad person, they just grew up in a universe where humanity is generally a back stabbing lot.

No no, I get that, I just mean if the Mirror Universe is (often) an excuse to invert or subvert normal characters' statuses, depiction or outlook, what would be an interesting tweak to the Borg that'd work in that universe?

It'd be kinda cool if the Terran Empire, now firmly established as a deeply unequal, racist and fascist organisation, had to fight The Borg, only here the cyborgs are an egalitarian collective, a race trying to unify the galaxy through peace and harmony.

It'd be a difficult needle to thread, given how those kind of hive-mind races in Sci Fi are often skewed towards a certain benevolent malice; so to be seen as good guys it'd want to emphasise that no-one's individualism was lost or absorbed by this 'nice' version of the Borg.

Spear

Bacchus wrote: »

Only quibble with the episode is Michael inviting the Discovery into what is so obviously a trap. Here's hoping there was a "by the book" moment in her message to Saru.

Like much of the other elements of the show, they've always foreshadowed things with otherwise innocuous comments. I suspect that Emperors comments about Burnham always trying to do something clever is another example of this.

Goodshape

I really don't think the Mirror Universe holds up to any sort of scrutiny when you start thinking of things like continuity.

Everything is different except for the many things which remain – across centuries – exactly the same. Same ships, same crews (more or less), same relationships, plenty of the same key events when it suits the narrative. There's no concept or notion of any sort of butterfly/ripple-effect on the timeline at all.

It seems from the Enterprise episode that First Contact (the film) happened in the MU too, more or less, up to the point of the actual first contact where it became a fun idea to switch things up and shoot the vulcans.

And then, somehow without any of the help that prime-universe Earth had, they managed to get things to a point where the Shenzhou, Discovery, Enterprise, etc., all existed in perfect parallel. Except again for the handful of things that were fun to switch up.

And 100+ years later, DS9 exists and more or less the same people have found their way onboard.


I guess this is why Lorca spoke of some kind of destiny but really, in a "science fiction" show, that's single-ply wet tissue paper thin.


They're making a really good and exciting show of it but it's still the most ridicules concept. I hope they have their fun and get back home by the end of the season.

seamus

Goodshape wrote: »

They're making a really good and exciting show of it but it's still the most ridicules concept. I hope they have their fun and get back home by the end of the season.

As I've said in other threads, you can retcon it in by invoking multiverse theory, but then you're left trying to explain away the odds that Federation ships would travel to the same Mirror Universe multiple times rather than any of the other infinite universes.

People really need to stop looking at ST with a microscope and just enjoy the ride.

Greyjoy

A good episode in itself but I've got big reservations about the plot developments. The double twist of both Tyler AND Lorca having secret identities feels very repetitive and overloaded. The writers needed to make a choice between one or the other. The twist about Lorca I think makes him a less interesting character for me as it provides too neat an explanation for his personality.

fxotoole

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Did I see Security Chief Landry in the trailer for next week?
My personal belief is that Lorca and Landry both crossed over to our universe (somehow and probably accidentally) due to the disaster that destroyed the Buran (sp?)
So if Landry is in next weeks ep she is probably the version from our universe and she will no doubt provide lots of information including the location of the Lorca from our universe.

Also, does anyone really think that mirror-Burnham is actually dead? :rolleyes:

Good spot.

I'm wondering where is Prime-Lorca? Likewise for Mirror-Tyler? I'd like to see them both make appearances.

Stark

fxotoole wrote: »

Good spot.

I'm wondering where is Prime-Lorca?

I'm guessing blown up along with the rest of the crew on the Buran.

Cunning Alias

First episode where it finally snapped for me and went from a disjointed mess to 'dumb but incredibly enjoyable'. It felt like I was watching a modern day Flash Gordon at times. Hope they stay in the evil universe for the rest of the run.

This was the first episode where I stopped thinking of this as Star Trek and it made it a lot more enjoyable.

Spear

Agreed, I suspect he did die on the Buran. He wouldn't last long in the mirror universe.

Though that still leaves a question of how Mirror Lorca got across in the first place. It wasn't via the same method as the Defiant, The Terran Empire doesn't have the spore drive, so their ISS Discovery equally doesn't, and Stamets was on the ISS Charon. I would hope some of these questions will get answered.

Goodshape

Cunning Alias wrote: »

This was the first episode where I stopped thinking of this as Star Trek and it made it a lot more enjoyable.

TNG wasn't Star Trek because it didn't have Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, had a Klingon (if you can even call that mars-bar headed thing a Klingon!) on the bridge, and some old bald man for a captain. Pathetic.

DS9 wasn't Star Trek because Star Trek is always about exploration and this soap opera nonsense is on a star base. Laughable.

Voyager was Star Trek in name only. What's the point if you're going to set it so far away with totally new aliens?! What happened to everything we've established so far??! Ridicules. Should have just called it something else.

Enterprise didn't even use the name Star Trek at first and for good reason! Prequel nonsense.

None of the films, except maybe TMP, are real Star Trek. Vengeance stories and action set pieces. Where's the SCIENCE!?!?


Discovery certainly isn't Star Trek because if it was, it wouldn't be just like all the other Star Treks.

Vicxas

So, that was a hell of an Episode. 

I can see why some people hated it, but overall i really like where this is going. Its like Star Trek but with the Grittiness of BSG or the later parts of DS9

The_Valeyard

What a ship!

Is that like a Mass Effect citadel going on? Which buildings, lakes and greenery around the mini sun?

Evade

The_Valeyard wrote: »

What a ship!

Is that like a Mass Effect citadel going on? Which buildings, lakes and greenery around the mini sun?

One thing the shots of the Charon needed was one of the known size ships so we can get a really good idea of the size of the thing.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

None of the films, except maybe TMP, are real Star Trek.

But TMP had mars bar heads so it's not real Star Trek either.

ezra_

fxotoole wrote: »

Good spot.

I'm wondering where is Prime-Lorca? Likewise for Mirror-Tyler? I'd like to see them both make appearances.

Didn't mirror Tyler get killed by the guy torturing Lorca in the agoniser room?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

One thing the shots of the Charon needed was one of the known size ships so we can get a really good idea of the size of the thing.

We saw the shuttle craft dock with the Charon, so it seemed like it might have been about the size of a larger Constitution class vessel.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

We saw the shuttle craft dock with the Charon, so it seemed like it might have been about the size of a larger Constitution class vessel.

I think it's much bigger. Counting the rows of windows in the Valeyard's post it looks to me like the top section on its own is almost as tall as a Constitution class.

Does it remind anyone else of a D'deridex class warbird on steroids? Even the technology might be similar, being powered by a star instead of a small black hole.

corkie

Star Trek: Discovery Episode 12 Review - Vaulting Ambition

jasonb

So, am i right in thinking this about Voq...

Basically, they physically altered Voq by performing extensive surgery on him to make him look like Tyler, and 'put' Tyler's mind into him, leaving his own mind buried beneath. Is that right? In other words, the body is Voq's, just radically altered, and Tyler's body is basically dead, unless they've kept him in a cell somewhere?

Spear

jasonb wrote: »

So, am i right in thinking this about Voq...

Basically, they physically altered Voq by performing extensive surgery on him to make him look like Tyler, and 'put' Tyler's mind into him, leaving his own mind buried beneath. Is that right? In other words, the body is Voq's, just radically altered, and Tyler's body is basically dead, unless they've kept him in a cell somewhere?

That seems to be it. Tyler's memories were copied over, giving a surface personality that passes any checking. They're vague on how he passes the DNA test, but I presume grafted cloned muscle and organ mass. Which would explain the scarring around the bones they mentioned. But ultimately Voq in Tyler suit.

Evade

Spear wrote: »

There vague on how he passes the DNS test,

They mentioned in this episode that they changed his DNA to Tyler's.

Spear

Evade wrote: »

They mentioned in this episode that they changed his DNA to Tyler's.

I got that, but he'd need cells/blood to pass a test, hence the grafts of cloned tissue that would be needed.

Evade

Spear wrote: »

I got that, but he'd need cells/blood to pass a test, hence the grafts of cloned tissue that would be needed.

But if they changed his DNA his own cells would have Tyler's DNA.

The way I understand it is they made him physicaly resemble Tyler with those surgeries then teched the Voq DNA into Tyler's DNA. The Cardassians used to do something like that on DS9 and Voyager.

CramCycle

also if memory serves, the differences between races is miniscule compared to the similarities thanks to something that left a message in all the other races DNA and basically kickstarted all the races. I may have been crazy tired when that episode was on.

The point was, to reverse engineer into a human may not be terribly difficult without destroying the klingons mind. Replace bone marrow, replace the organs (bar the brain, a load of anti rejection drugs until it all takes.

Evade

CramCycle wrote: »

also if memory serves, the differences between races is miniscule compared to the similarities thanks to something that left a message in all the other races DNA and basically kickstarted all the races. I may have been crazy tired when that episode was on.

That's an accurate summary of that episode but minuscule is a stretch. It would still be about as hard if not harder than turning a human into another member of the ape family since the same pre-destined DNA thing applies to all lifeforms on those planets.

ads20101

Feck - brilliant ep

Damn annoyed that I didn't see the twist

It's not the ST of my youth but it has me converted. Can't wait for more eps

Drumpot

Really enjoying the show. Like Seamus said, I’m more interested in enjoying it then picking apart. Haven’t anticipated any twists and find the show more enjoyable for it. Hope this gets renewed, I love the universe and the more adult feel.

AMKC

Spear wrote: »

They were referred to as Lords of the Empire, with the survivor being a Lord Ealing. But in an empire like that they were always going to be little more than toadying sycophants, so they're plenty disposable. Lord Ealing appears to only have been left alive for the purpose of getting a mop and bucket.

There's a couple of small details people haven't commented on.

It had been implied before the Terran Empire had its roots in the Roman Empire, and the Empress's titles seem to lean into that.

Also they ate the Kelpian. It didn't really add anything to the story, it's just a nicely horrible detail.

Agreed very horrible. The face on Micheal when she realised it was on alien she was eating. If it was me I think I would have felt sick.

Drumpot wrote: »

Really enjoying the show. Like Seamus said, I’m more interested in enjoying it then picking apart. Haven’t anticipated any twists and find the show more enjoyable for it. Hope this gets renewed, I love the universe and the more adult feel.

It has been renewed already. They announced it a few months back.

https://www.space.com/38537-star-trek-discovery-renewed-season-2.html

Goodshape

Why didn't Lorca just say the sister's name when asked? Now that we know he is MU, he still seemed to be pretending to be prime universe Lorca pretending to be mirror universe Lorca.

Why not just be mirror universe Lorca? Burnham wasn't around to notice.

Was there a reason for that that I missed? Or just a narrative trick?

fritzelly

Maybe that's just the character he is, don't give the enemy the satisfaction of knowing they've broken you
Mirror universe adds another dimension to it but still the same thing

spookwoman

They love the number 312. Stamets Patient number 312132 There's Murasaki 312 was listed on an alternate universe yesterdays enterprise. Episode 132 of ds9 is a mirror universe one of Vedek Bareil Resurrection. There is also DS9 Past tense part 2 Season 3 episode 12. And then there is section 31 and discovery's number NCC-1031.
Forgot to add 132 the spore jump that sent them to the MU

silverharp

have they explained how "old" these parallel universes are? for it to "logically" work the universes would have had to split within everyone's lifetime or their histories were exactly the same up until some point in recent history

Evade

silverharp wrote: »

have they explained how "old" these parallel universes are? for it to "logically" work the universes would have had to split within everyone's lifetime or their histories were exactly the same up until some point in recent history

The split was at least 200 years ago, probably a lot more. The infinite multiverse does allow for very different but very similar situation it's just the chances of finding it are infinitesimally low. Let alone consistently finding it nine times, four of which were accidents.

Johnny Storm

Goodshape wrote: »

Why didn't Lorca just say the sister's name when asked? Now that we know he is MU, he still seemed to be pretending to be prime universe Lorca pretending to be mirror universe Lorca.

All part of his cunning plan to get himself released from the Agoniser booth....

Johnny Storm

Evade wrote: »

The split was at least 200 years ago, probably a lot more. The infinite multiverse does allow for very different but very similar situation it's just the chances of finding it are infinitesimally low. Let alone consistently finding it nine times, four of which were accidents.

Not an expert - and I really can hardly bring myself to say anything positive about so-called "Enterprise" :rolleyes: - but IIRC in the opening credits of the Enterprise episode that dealt with the Mirror Universe we see the Nazis winning WWII. It is implied that that is the branching point that leads to the Terran Empire.

Evade

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Not an expert - and I really can hardly bring myself to say anything positive about so-called "Enterprise" :rolleyes: - but IIRC in the opening credits of the Enterprise episode that dealt with the Mirror Universe we see the Nazis winning WWII. It is implied that that is the branching point that leads to the Terran Empire.

There's no explicit Nazis winning WWII scenes in the opening but there is an F-15 Eagle, a B1 Lancer, and a Saturn V all of which are post war American vehicles. The shot of the Terran Empire sword is even imposed over American WWIIish soldiers marching. Maybe the Terran Empire is the US taking that Roman influence they had in their early years way too far.

pixelburp

For comparison, here's the intro being talked about: don't think there's much to be taken from it beyond generic war imagery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfbsZRbwbJ4

silverharp

Evade wrote: »

The split was at least 200 years ago, probably a lot more. The infinite multiverse does allow for very different but very similar situation it's just the chances of finding it are infinitesimally low. Let alone consistently finding it nine times, four of which were accidents.

I cant get my brain around that, once you have differences then you cant have the same people being born

Evade

silverharp wrote: »

I cant get my brain around that, once you have differences then you cant have the same people being born

It would take a whole lot of coincidences alright. It's like warp drive, we know it's impossible but we just go along with it.

seamus

silverharp wrote: »

I cant get my brain around that, once you have differences then you cant have the same people being born

Evade wrote: »

It would take a whole lot of coincidences alright. It's like warp drive, we know it's impossible but we just go along with it.

Ultimately any multiverse theory says that not only can potential alternate realities exist, but that they all exist.

That means that no matter how unlikely an occurrence may be - such as a universe containing exactly the same people with similar backstories but emerging from an entirely different cultural history - that occurrence exists somewhere in the multiverse.

Hand-wringing? Easy answer? Pseudoscience?

Yep; all the good traditions of Star Trek in one

Johnny Storm

seamus wrote: »

Hand-wringing? Easy answer? Pseudoscience?

Yep; all the good traditions of Star Trek in one

"Destiny"?

noodler

Might qualify as so bat shot crazy that it's interesting rather than good.

Series has been mixed to date and that's being kind. Scattergun approach to star trek ideas.

I didn't see that coming though. Not in a million years.

fritzelly

pixelburp wrote: »

For comparison, here's the intro being talked about: don't think there's much to be taken from it beyond generic war imagery.

Hell yeah, forgot about those episodes, may have to have a relook

PhiloCypher

Im not sure why but I haven't been as invested in the show since its come back , before the christmas break I'd written phone book posts here and on the Disco reddit, but despite the revelations about Tyler and Lorca I've struggled to muster enthusiasm enough to post . Maybe it's the fact both revelations were widely theorised and discussed previously and that I had hoped neither were true idk . Maybe it's the fact I expected this mirror stuff to be a 1 or 2 ep arc tops and not take up the entire second half of the season , leaving the war with the Klingons unresolved.

The episodes on the whole have been pretty good but for me MU episodes are best used sparingly and not as a 3 and counting arc in the midst of a life or death struggle with the Klingons.

pixelburp

Aside from the fact I denied the theory, the Lorca thing took me by surprise because I limited my indulgence to this forum; I find surrounding myself with fandom just takes some of the fun and polish off these sorts of things, where there's no voyage of ... arf... discovery because all tangents have been minutely discussed in eye watering detail on another site.

CramCycle

pixelburp wrote: »

Aside from the fact I denied the theory, the Lorca thing took me by surprise because I limited my indulgence to this forum; I find surrounding myself with fandom just takes some of the fun and polish off these sorts of things, where there's no voyage of ... arf... discovery because all tangents have been minutely discussed in eye watering detail on another site.

One of the reasons I prefer here to other sites, it reminds me of having a chat with mates in school who enjoy it . Not sure how anyone enjoys TV shows after prereading some of the other sites.

Ping Chow Chi

oh the it took me by surprise, and I loved it!  For me the show has gone from background noise on the TV to something that I look forward to watching.