Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

Icsics

Noveight wrote: »

The PME has dropped its entry requirements significantly in the past 2-3 years, as have the CAO points for the undergrad courses which feed in to the PME.

I know for certain that there are people passing through with neither a great interest in teaching nor a solid ability in their subjects.

Agree 100% we have a lot of PMEs, focus seems to be on their ‘folders’ & not on whether they can actually teach

r93kaey5p2izun

We also take a lot of teaching practice students, from 5 different colleges and from different courses within those colleges. We haven't had any new or growing concerns about their teacher training. There have been some serious issues around subject knowledge in some cases though.

lightspeed

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Can't speak for secondary. Primary might be a few hours per week for SEN shared positions, subbing, presuming you could travel at the drop of a hat to the other end of the country- anything from a day , to a few days to a maternity leave.

would it not be the case that if you secured any position in primary it would be likely full time even if it was few weeks or months at a time?

Do primary school students sometimes have more than one primary teacher then if positions can be shared?

It be good if one of the teachers unions or some reliable body could provide the average hours per week newly qualified teachers are working?

Is it likely to improve in the next few years as economy picks up along with population growth?

happywithlife

lightspeed wrote: »

would it not be the case that if you secured any position in primary it would be likely full time even if it was few weeks or months at a time?

Do primary school students sometimes have more than one primary teacher then if positions can be shared?

It be good if one of the teachers unions or some reliable body could provide the average hours per week newly qualified teachers are working?

Is it likely to improve in the next few years as economy picks up along with population growth?

Not primary sector but my understanding from my children in primary school is you could have two teachers jobsharing either on a week on/week off basis or a 2/3 day week. Lots of SEN or resource teachers (know that s not the correct term anymore) may not be on full hours or may be shared around between schools
So this may account for some part time subbing hours at primary

Mardy Bum

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

We also take a lot of teaching practice students, from 5 different colleges and from different courses within those colleges. We haven't had any new or growing concerns about their teacher training. There have been some serious issues around subject knowledge in some cases though.

I've seen 6th year students studying ordinary level maths and English and still getting into the primary teaching courses. This is worrying.

evolving_doors

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I've seen 6th year students studying ordinary level maths and English and still getting into the primary teaching courses. This is worrying.

I'm not too enamored about going the subject hierarchy route, we'll end up chasing our tails (like the recent STEM vs' Irish in Primary schools nonsense 'debate'). Maybe they're good at teaching what needs to be taught with good teaching methods, or good at something else like languages or PE.

Get a professor of maths from Trinners in to teach a 3rd class and he mightn't fare as well as the lad who can make a good connection with kids and have a bit of fun learning about multiplication (that's not LC OL standard by any means).

Although you would want someone with a good inclination towards education... so if the demand is high enough and the points go high enough then you will get that.

How do you create higher demand though?
I reckon the 'nagging mammy get a public sector job for yourself' factor is wearing off.

Noveight

evolving_doors wrote: »

How do you create higher demand though?
I reckon the 'nagging mammy get a public sector job for yourself' factor is wearing off.

First step is doing something about the bloody PME. I'm delighted to hear the numbers applying have dropped dramatically because maybe having it printed black and white on paper might wake up Bruton et al - though I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

evolving_doors

Noveight wrote: »

First step is doing something about the bloody PME. I'm delighted to hear the numbers applying have dropped dramatically because maybe having it printed black and white on paper might wake up Bruton et al - though I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

Maybe they'll do very little in the hope that it will yo-yo back again with more media reports.

I think the long term play by the dept. mandarins is to make it over the 2025 hump without increasing tteacher numbers. Once the population bubble decreases then the pressure will be off.
The last thing they want is an oversupply of permanent teachers having to be redeployed with a falling student population.
Could there be any merit in this assumption ?
They are a bit of a 'do nothing' government after all . e.g. housing + health

salonfire

evolving_doors wrote: »

Maybe they'll do very little in the hope that it will yo-yo back again with more media reports.

I think the long term play by the dept. mandarins is to make it over the 2025 hump without increasing tteacher numbers. Once the population bubble decreases then the pressure will be off.
The last thing they want is an oversupply of permanent teachers having to be redeployed with a falling student population.
Could there be any merit in this assumption ?
They are a bit of a 'do nothing' government after all . e.g. housing + health

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

Interesting, in the same post, you blame the government - and not the management in health.

The government has given the HSE the biggest budget ever. Do you not think to question if that is being spent correctly?

r93kaey5p2izun

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

The government is trying to hire and failing - that's the point of the thread. It's amusing that you think adding the risk of redundancy to teacher's terms and conditions should be considered in the context of a massive recruitment and retention crisis in the profession.

SligoBrewer

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now?

They stop hiring and redeploy already. Not every teaching contract is permanent.
Stop making excuses for bad practices.

markodaly

salonfire wrote: »

The government has given the HSE the biggest budget ever. Do you not think to question if that is being spent correctly?

That is a good point. The government or should I say the tax payer spends €10 Billion a year on education. That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

rainbowtrout

markodaly wrote: »

That is a good point. The government or should I say the tax payer spends €10 Billion a year on education. That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

Oh FFS. Part of the education budget is paying teacher wages. What do you propose be done? Stop paying teachers?:rolleyes:

SligoBrewer

markodaly wrote: »

That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

Check the PISA results Mark like a good lad. x

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

Interesting, in the same post, you blame the government - and not the management in health.

The government has given the HSE the biggest budget ever. Do you not think to question if that is being spent correctly?

I do.

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

That is a good point. The government or should I say the tax payer spends €10 Billion a year on education. That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

You should really do some research on measuring outcomes in the education field if you're going to start on about grades.
Nice distraction btw.
But (back to the topic) if you think that a teacher shortage is a good 'outcome' for students sitting in a class with no subject teacher then Maybe we should cut the budget a bit more!

TheDriver

I find people love giving out about education, everyone is an expert because they went to school themselves etc. Yet no one gives it socks to their actual child's teacher. I wonder why....

markodaly

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh FFS. Part of the education budget is paying teacher wages. What do you propose be done? Stop paying teachers?:rolleyes:

I never mentioned anything about teachers wages, I mentioned outcomes for the amount of money we spent on a nation on teachers.

markodaly

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Check the PISA results Mark like a good lad. x

Yes, good jump in Reading but back in Science. That does not answer the question though, are we getting good outcomes?

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

But (back to the topic) if you think that a teacher shortage is a good 'outcome' for students sitting in a class with no subject teacher then Maybe we should cut the budget a bit more!

Where did I mention that a teacher shortage is a good outcome. I swear that people don't actually read what I write, but project their own bias and respond.

I already gave my own 2c on why there is a teacher shortage and ways to combat it, one being the teacher council copping on and making it easier to attract foreign qualified teachers. Teaching had been a closed shop but that will have to change if you want the shortage to be solved long term.

There are other factors too but I don't think you or anyone really want to discuss that but if you want, I will.

byhookorbycrook

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

That's what panels are for. And that's presuming the teacher in whose school the post is being lost has panel rights, which most NQTs don't.
You need to educate yourself on facts before you post and make claims that are totally false.

keoclassic

Teaching was never closed shop. I became a teacher because I wanted to, I studied, went to college, graduated, got a job, was never out of work because I travelled the length and breadth of the country to keep myself in it. I then left teaching because I got so sick of the bull**** involved in schools, the nepotism that exists, the do as your told not what's right way of doing things, the clicks, the way that you are treated if not in the correct click, the unfair promotions.....and a whole lot more........hard to get into certain jobs , yes......closed shop,no. Go to Dublin and some schools change teachers so often, you will be nearly guaranteed a job.

byhookorbycrook

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, good jump in Reading but back in Science. That does not answer the question though, are we getting good outcomes?

So payment by results then?Only teachers in schools where results go up get paid?So, what about DEIS schools?Children with SEN?

markodaly

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So payment by results then?Only teachers in schools where results go up get paid?So, what about DEIS schools?Children with SEN?

I see my point has gone over your head.

It is a simple question, do we get good outcomes for the amount of money we spend. We know that we don't in the Health sector, so do we far better in the education sector.

markodaly

keoclassic wrote: »

Teaching was never closed shop. I became a teacher because I wanted to, I studied, went to college, graduated, got a job, was never out of work because I travelled the length and breadth of the country to keep myself in it. I then left teaching because I got so sick of the bull**** involved in schools, the nepotism that exists, the do as your told not what's right way of doing things, the clicks, the way that you are treated if not in the correct click, the unfair promotions.....and a whole lot more........hard to get into certain jobs , yes......closed shop,no. Go to Dublin and some schools change teachers so often, you will be nearly guaranteed a job.

Erm, you sure? :pac:

feedthegoat

Back on topic...we are just surviving thru the use of M Eds as sub's on a daily basis. They are delighted as it helps pay their fees and most of them are enthusiastic and up to it.

evolving_doors

feedthegoat wrote: »

Back on topic...we are just surviving thru the use of M Eds as sub's on a daily basis. They are delighted as it helps pay their fees and most of them are enthusiastic and up to it.

Well said:pac:

As a matter of interest how much of everyone's S&S quota is used up. I think most of our staff are reaching 'peak hours'. Is there a special allocation for subs after?

rainbowtrout

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well said:pac:

As a matter of interest how much of everyone's S&S quota is used up. I think most of our staff are reaching 'peak hours'. Is there a special allocation for subs after?

I was close to mine (allowing for the break/lunch slots I was timetabled for, for the rest of the year) and then I broke my leg last week so I guess I won't hit my S&S quota. My class probably won't have a physics teacher either.

feedthegoat

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well said:pac:

As a matter of interest how much of everyone's S&S quota is used up. I think most of our staff are reaching 'peak hours'. Is there a special allocation for subs after?

No specific allocation for sub's but if teachers have opted out in your school then the school will get an equivalent allocation to employ others to carry out S and S.

jaffa20

When i thought about becoming a teacher 8 or 9 years ago, there was too many teachers but now there is a shortage... What is going on? I considered it recently but then i saw that the hdip has now being replaced by a 2 year course!! Also, reading this thread would put anyone off becoming a teacher.