Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

spurious

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Dont the religious run school not do exam RE or is that gone completely ?

If students opt out won't it realistically mean that that RE teacher still takes them but for study or whatever because there won't end up being anyone in the RE class?

I don't think it will affect the subject RE.
The VEC Act made it compulsory for VEC (now ETB) schools to deliver 2 hours a week Religious Education to all students. That seems to be what is finally being done away with.

Postgrad10

Maybe this is where they are making room for extra PE/ Computer Science.

doc_17

spurious wrote: »

I don't think it will affect the subject RE.
The VEC Act made it compulsory for VEC (now ETB) schools to deliver 2 hours a week Religious Education to all students. That seems to be what is finally being done away with.

2 hours? We’ve never given them 3 periods.

spurious

doc_17 wrote: »

2 hours? We’ve never given them 3 periods.

Yes, there were many creative approaches taken to it, but AFAIK on the Act it's two hours. We used to have a mish-mash RSE/SPHE/RE/kitchen sink 'subject'.

mirrorwall14

There was a lot of discussion about this in school. Its potentially going to have a massive impact on our timetable (particularly in light of a few other recommendations made in the recent MLL). Looks like our timetable will need to be completely rebuilt. Huge concern from Religion teachers as to what will be offered in parallel to it. And how it will work with the cap on JC subjects. Like currently all our students do JC religion, there is no alternative offered at all. Do we create a new option line with religion in it? But then our options are currently 4 periods, religion is 3. What goes against it? Multiple subjects? Or just one? How many hours religion will we be down in the end? Is there danger of redeployment etc....

Lot of unanswered questions right now

byhookorbycrook

My niece reliably informs me that many students take religion for Leaving Cert, as it's far easy to get high points in it than other subjects.

mirrorwall14

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

My niece reliably informs me that many students take religion for Leaving Cert, as it's far easy to get high points in it than other subjects.

We don't actually offer it at LC as an exam subject!

man_no_plan

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We don't actually offer it at LC as an exam subject!

You can give the option to do religion against SPHE or civics or call it whatever you like that covers morality, rse etc.

I wouldn't be getting too panicked. It's opt out of religion with something else offered. Not opt out of religion with your choice of any subject or extra time to study my applied maths. If it's a different class provided they should participate in it fully as would be expected in religion.

The argument around faith formation and religious education and learning about various world religions and cultures and tolerance and diversity etc shouldn't disappear.

mirrorwall14

man_no_plan wrote: »

You can give the option to do religion against SPHE or civics or call it whatever you like that covers morality, rse etc.

I wouldn't be getting too panicked. It's opt out of religion with something else offered. Not opt out of religion with your choice of any subject or extra time to study my applied maths. If it's a different class provided they should participate in it fully as would be expected in religion.

The argument around faith formation and religious education and learning about various world religions and cultures and tolerance and diversity etc shouldn't disappear.

Thats an interesting take. And would actually fix a lot of the fears in our school. It does feel like it would be avoiding the spirit of the circular though :eek:

byhookorbycrook

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We don't actually offer it at LC as an exam subject!

She did it outside of school. Got an A1 in it.Her granny was "shocking proud" but wasn't quite au fait with the syllabus:D:D

MFLST

I'm a PME primary but have an undergrad in French and German. Could I sub for second level considering there is a shortage of MFL teachers?

Mardy Bum

MFLST wrote: »

I'm a PME primary but have an undergrad in French and German. Could I sub for second level considering there is a shortage of MFL teachers?

You can but only for 4 days in a row and then you will have to take a day off.

Be aware primary and secondary are totally different animals.

There should be a lot of work about over the two weeks after Easter.

mtoutlemonde

MFLST wrote: »

I'm a PME primary but have an undergrad in French and German. Could I sub for second level considering there is a shortage of MFL teachers?

Do you know the syllabus? Exam structure? Are you aware of the new Junior Cycle specification? Why choose primary if you had two good subjects for secondary? There is a bigger shortage in primary? Can you not find work in primary?

MFLST

Mardy Bum:
Great thank you very much! I have a tc number and vetted so I dont think the 4 day rule applies to me.

Mtoutlemonde:
Lots of questions Yes I did both languages in school, and currently give grinds in both languages. No, but I am looking at subbing not to cover a fixed term post. The same question can be asked to secondary school teachers who are subbing at primary level. Do they know the new language curriculum? or any part of the curriculum for that matter. It does not seem to matter when there is a need. I am not going after anyone's job, I am literally asking about subbing when there is a clear need a day here, a day there. Yes there is a shortage of Primary teachers in bigger cities, but also, there are parts of Ireland which are oversubscribed but we don't hear about those on the media. Why primary? Well the teaching council decided during my undergrad to change the specifications for MFL teaching, increasing the credits and the credits to literature. 3 year groups fell short on these credits in literature and we would had to make them up, which would have been 9 extra modules at our on cost. I chose primary because I love teaching, I get that there is a huge difference teaching the two age groups, but I love giving my grinds and sharing my language with students but also working with kids. As mentioned I am still a PME, and this post was in relation to a few days subbing here or there.

rainbowtrout

man_no_plan wrote: »

You can give the option to do religion against SPHE or civics or call it whatever you like that covers morality, rse etc.

I wouldn't be getting too panicked. It's opt out of religion with something else offered. Not opt out of religion with your choice of any subject or extra time to study my applied maths. If it's a different class provided they should participate in it fully as would be expected in religion.

The argument around faith formation and religious education and learning about various world religions and cultures and tolerance and diversity etc shouldn't disappear.

They'll already be getting SPHE under the new Wellness subject which is lumping CSPE, SPHE, PE together.

I suspect that schools will probably offer Computers or something of that nature at that time, which means they can lump any teacher into the timetable at that time.

janes1234

MFLST wrote: »

Mardy Bum:
Great thank you very much! I have a tc number and vetted so I dont think the 4 day rule applies to me.

Mtoutlemonde:
Lots of questions Yes I did both languages in school, and currently give grinds in both languages. No, but I am looking at subbing not to cover a fixed term post. The same question can be asked to secondary school teachers who are subbing at primary level. Do they know the new language curriculum? or any part of the curriculum for that matter. It does not seem to matter when there is a need. I am not going after anyone's job, I am literally asking about subbing when there is a clear need a day here, a day there. Yes there is a shortage of Primary teachers in bigger cities, but also, there are parts of Ireland which are oversubscribed but we don't hear about those on the media. Why primary? Well the teaching council decided during my undergrad to change the specifications for MFL teaching, increasing the credits and the credits to literature. 3 year groups fell short on these credits in literature and we would had to make them up, which would have been 9 extra modules at our on cost. I chose primary because I love teaching, I get that there is a huge difference teaching the two age groups, but I love giving my grinds and sharing my language with students but also working with kids. As mentioned I am still a PME, and this post was in relation to a few days subbing here or there.

Just be aware that giving grinds is absolutely nothing like teaching secondary school.

MFLST

Yes I am aware of this. But I am literally writing this to wonder if it is possible. As I mentioned previously I'm not out for someone's job. I just thought it might be better that If there was a situation where a MFL teacher was out that the students have someone who can at least teach the language when I've heard of other teachers just sitting in a supervising the lesson.

mtoutlemonde

MFLST wrote: »

Mardy Bum:
Great thank you very much! I have a tc number and vetted so I dont think the 4 day rule applies to me.

Mtoutlemonde:
Lots of questions Yes I did both languages in school, and currently give grinds in both languages.

Giving grinds is very far from teaching 25+ students who want to get H1s in their Leaving Cert. So I don't consider that experience.

No, but I am looking at subbing not to cover a fixed term post. The same question can be asked to secondary school teachers who are subbing at primary level.

I trained as a secondary school teacher and would not work in primary for the life of me - I'm not qualified so wouldn't know where to start. I think the same should be said for primary teachers subbing in secondary - they are not trained to do that job.

Do they know the new language curriculum? or any part of the curriculum for that matter. It does not seem to matter when there is a need. I am not going after anyone's job, I am literally asking about subbing when there is a clear need a day here, a day there.

But you are - a NQT language teacher maybe????

Yes there is a shortage of Primary teachers in bigger cities, but also, there are parts of Ireland which are oversubscribed but we don't hear about those on the media.

That is the same for post-primary - so people should stick to their sector.

Why primary? Well the teaching council decided during my undergrad to change the specifications for MFL teaching, increasing the credits and the credits to literature. 3 year groups fell short on these credits in literature and we would had to make them up, which would have been 9 extra modules at our on cost. I chose primary because I love teaching, I get that there is a huge difference teaching the two age groups,

Now I may be wrong, but I was of the understanding that once you had started studying, that you qualified under the regulations that were in place when you studied i.e. the new requirements came in last year I think, so I would assume that anyone who was studying should be assessed on those regulations.

With relation to doing extra modules - I did it and it didn't break me and I also completed them during my PGDE. A friend of mine had a masters but was not registered for the language but did complete four essays and attended the lectures - no big deal in my opinion.

but I love giving my grinds and sharing my language with students but also working with kids. As mentioned I am still a PME, and this post was in relation to a few days subbing here or there.

As said previously, grinds are completely different. There are a lot of things you don't have to deal with e.g. differentiation, the student(s) who don't want to do these 'stupid' languages. You do not have the adequate methodologies to teach languages. This is only my opinion but as I said previously, I would not consider working in a primary school as it would be extremely stressful for me as I would want to do my best for the students and it would also be unfair to the students. Just be aware that the 'few days' subbing can turn into more long term therefore taking work from adequately trained people.

MFLST

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

As said previously, grinds are completely different. There are a lot of things you don't have to deal with e.g. differentiation, the student(s) who don't want to do these 'stupid' languages. You do not have the adequate methodologies to teach languages. This is only my opinion but as I said previously, I would not consider working in a primary school as it would be extremely stressful for me as I would want to do my best for the students and it would also be unfair to the students. Just be aware that the 'few days' subbing can turn into more long term therefore taking work from adequately trained people.

Hey again!

listen, I promise not to hand my cv into your school Howver, I will be handing it into other schools, so that If they need me they can call me. I am letting them know I am available and it'll be their choice to call me. If there are NQTs around who can fill in for the day then. that's great! But if not, then at least i can speak the languages and they don't just get supervised or a free class.

SligoBrewer

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Just be aware that the 'few days' subbing can turn into more long term therefore taking work from adequately trained people.

That's not his/her fault. There is no language teachers in the country. What are schools and the poster meant to do?

Corca Baiscinn

MFLST wrote: »

I'm a PME primary but have an undergrad in French and German. Could I sub for second level considering there is a shortage of MFL teachers?

Of course you could! Shortage of both so why not? All this about not knowing the curriculum is irrelevant, if you do get subbing for a planned absence you will be doing what the regular teacher wants done and if the odd day here and there leads to more there is a chance to familiarise yourself with the curricuum and to do in-service. As far as the curriculum goes all mfl teachers are just familiarising themselves with the new currculum and how it integrates into the Junior cycle Framework so you wont be at any loss.

One concern I'd have for you is that I'm not sure but your hourly rate may be lower than if you were a fully qualified post-primary pme but you might consider it worth it to get a bit of experience and decide if you wanted to work towards obtaining the extra credits to fully qualify or post-primary

Did you do a regular BA or Applied Languages and did you spend time abroad?

All the teaching practice trainee primary teachers do will stand to you in the classroom. It's unlikely you'll be starting with a Mat Leave in a school with LC's wanting a H1 so I wouldn't worry about it
Viel Gluck et Bonne Chance!

MFLST

Exactly, If they offer me an extended contract that is their choice and I don't have to take it. I am fully on the bandwagon that the children need a fully qualified MFL teacher first and foremost. Languages are difficult and as you said some students don't have a positive perception of them.

The rate of pay etc I don't mind. I would just like the experience as you said it would be very good for me. I'm an U.L. applied languages graduate and was in both countries working and studying! I can help them get there if they are Danke und merci!

roxychix

Hi all, just wondered if any other subs are struggling to find work. I am based in donegal and very little work out for subs in west and north west I have found. I have sent my cv to every school locally and further a field and still no luck. I've over 10 years teaching experience and have only got a few weeks cover in the past yr. in only one school. The shortage must be more based around Dublin etc. just wondering if I am alone on this

Corca Baiscinn

roxychix wrote: »

Hi all, just wondered if any other subs are struggling to find work. I am based in donegal and very little work out for subs in west and north west I have found. I have sent my cv to every school locally and further a field and still no luck. I've over 10 years teaching experience and have only got a few weeks cover in the past yr. in only one school. The shortage must be more based around Dublin etc. just wondering if I am alone on this

Primary or post-primary? Yes worse in Dub bec unless you living at home you can't afford to pay exorbitant rent but at second level there's a countrywide shortage in some subjects.

Are you on a sub register? I'd do more than send my CV, can you call in or otherwise network? if you're primary many schools in Donegal are likely quite small and as it's such a huge county it's not going to be practical for you to sub in Carndonagh if you live in Bundoran or vice versa

Gaia Mother Earth

roxychix wrote: »

Hi all, just wondered if any other subs are struggling to find work. I am based in donegal and very little work out for subs in west and north west I have found. I have sent my cv to every school locally and further a field and still no luck. I've over 10 years teaching experience and have only got a few weeks cover in the past yr. in only one school. The shortage must be more based around Dublin etc. just wondering if I am alone on this

I have found this year quite slow with subbing up here. I'm just finished a 6 week block and I was so glad to get it. Nepotism is rife in Donegal too. It's very hard to get ahead of local teachers who are related to the principal or whatever!

You could be the much better or more experienced teacher but the school might go with who they are familiar with. It's the way things are unfortunately but keep at it and hopefully a school will take you to get the wheels in motion for you.

I also second going in to speak with principals face to face. Time it so you'll see them at break or before school starts.

rainbowtrout

roxychix wrote: »

Hi all, just wondered if any other subs are struggling to find work. I am based in donegal and very little work out for subs in west and north west I have found. I have sent my cv to every school locally and further a field and still no luck. I've over 10 years teaching experience and have only got a few weeks cover in the past yr. in only one school. The shortage must be more based around Dublin etc. just wondering if I am alone on this

Is that specific to Donegal? I'm in the north west and we have found it hard to get subs for a range of subjects this year.

mtoutlemonde

MFLST wrote: »

Hey again!

listen, I promise not to hand my cv into your school Howver, I will be handing it into other schools, so that If they need me they can call me. I am letting them know I am available and it'll be their choice to call me. If there are NQTs around who can fill in for the day then. that's great! But if not, then at least i can speak the languages and they don't just get supervised or a free class.

You're alright - I don't have one!!

mtoutlemonde

SligoBrewer wrote: »

That's not his/her fault. There is no language teachers in the country. What are schools and the poster meant to do?

Could you provide a link for this? Other than the rubbish in the Irish Times.

mtoutlemonde

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Of course you could! Shortage of both so why not? All this about not knowing the curriculum is irrelevant, if you do get subbing for a planned absence you will be doing what the regular teacher wants done and if the odd day here and there leads to more there is a chance to familiarise yourself with the curricuum and to do in-service. As far as the curriculum goes all mfl teachers are just familiarising themselves with the new currculum and how it integrates into the Junior cycle Framework so you wont be at any loss.

One concern I'd have for you is that I'm not sure but your hourly rate may be lower than if you were a fully qualified post-primary pme but you might consider it worth it to get a bit of experience and decide if you wanted to work towards obtaining the extra credits to fully qualify or post-primary

Did you do a regular BA or Applied Languages and did you spend time abroad?

All the teaching practice trainee primary teachers do will stand to you in the classroom. It's unlikely you'll be starting with a Mat Leave in a school with LC's wanting a H1 so I wouldn't worry about it
Viel Gluck et Bonne Chance!

So if you're covering a maternity leave, you can expect an ordinary level leaving cert class who want H7's - come into the real world. You're either able to confidently teach the course to Higher Level Leaving Cert where students want to get H1s or you're not so I would worry about it.

benvben

The only ways to solve this are to A. Revert the PME to a one year Hdip - The cost has tripled since this change resulting in many potential student teachers unable to afford to pursue post primary teacher training.
B. Increase teachers pay and give teachers secure employment to give people an incentive to join the profession
C. Allow further ed teachers to teach at second level - Hdip in adult ed is a basic teacher training course - I personally know many fe teachers with masters and phds in languages, maths, English, Celtic studies, history and science subjects that are more than capable of teaching at second level but the teaching council wont allow it.
I really think its time that teachers collectively pester the teaching council to make some serious changes.