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Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?
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mtoutlemonde wrote: »Could you provide a link for this? Other than the rubbish in the Irish Times.
I taught in a school that didn't have a german teacher for months, not a single applicant for the job, full hours. This was 3 years ago.
The recruitment issues are real.0 -
The only ways to solve this are to A. Revert the PME to a one year Hdip - The cost has tripled since this change resulting in many potential student teachers unable to afford to pursue post primary teacher training.
B. Increase teachers pay and give teachers secure employment to give people an incentive to join the profession
C. Allow further ed teachers to teach at second level - Hdip in adult ed is a basic teacher training course - I personally know many fe teachers with masters and phds in languages, maths, English, Celtic studies, history and science subjects that are more than capable of teaching at second level but the teaching council wont allow it.
I really think its time that teachers collectively pester the teaching council to make some serious changes.
Further Ed teachers are not fit to teach second level and the issues that come with it. The Further Ed classroom is very different to the Secondary one.0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »Further Ed teachers are not fit to teach second level and the issues that come with it. The Further Ed classroom is very different to the Secondary one.
They are fit to teach second level.0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »I taught in a school that didn't have a german teacher for months, not a single applicant for the job, full hours. This was 3 years ago.
The recruitment issues are real.
I know of few schools that have failed to secure a teacher in certain subjects this year, even after multiple adverts. Even the usual over supply subjects are getting thin on the ground0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »Further Ed teachers are not fit to teach second level and the issues that come with it. The Further Ed classroom is very different to the Secondary one.
What do you mean? Any further Ed teacher I know is is more than capable and would be a great advantage to my school!0 -
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rainbowtrout wrote:Is that specific to Donegal? I'm in the north west and we have found it hard to get subs for a range of subjects this year.
Im post primary over 10 yrs experience and still no luck have been to school in leitrim and sligo as well.0 -
What do you mean? Any further Ed teacher I know is is more than capable and would be a great advantage to my school!
Further ed teachers don't require anything more than their degree. And even if they did do further training, it would be focused at teaching older students and not secondary school students.
They might be capable of being a great teacher, but without the proper qualifications they should not be allowed to.0 -
What do you mean? Any further Ed teacher I know is is more than capable and would be a great advantage to my school!
Many further education teachers have no teaching qualifications of any sort, yet registered with the teaching council. For this reason, the idea of further education teachers in post primary shouldn't be entertained.0 -
Further ed teachers don't require anything more than their degree. And even if they did do further training, it would be focused at teaching older students and not secondary school students.
They might be capable of being a great teacher, but without the proper qualifications they should not be allowed to.Many further education teachers have no teaching qualifications of any sort, yet registered with the teaching council. For this reason, the idea of further education teachers in post primary shouldn't be entertained.
That changed in 2013, new FE teachers entering the sector are now required to complete a one year Hdip teacher training at the very least. - Some ETBs dont implement this and employ unqualified teachers but the teaching council requires FE teachers to be teacher trained.
Also a FE teacher training is a general teacher training course which covers a range of methodologies. When completing my FE teacher training I had a friend completing second level dip, she was covering the same theorists, methodologies and subjects as me, we both had 4 teaching placement visits, completed 150 hours of teaching practice while on the course in registered ETBs. The only difference was our course leaned more towards encompassing individual students life experience, hers leaned more towards discipline. That said we had classes and essays to complete on behavioural management, attachment theory ect.
FE teachers dont just work with adults, they work in youthreach with early school leavers, hospital schools for children and teenagers, special needs centres and many different non traditional education settings working with all groups and all ages. There is no reason why a a trained FE teacher shouldnt be permitted to work at second level, specifically when second level teachers can work in FE sectors.0 -
The TC are allowing anyone and everyone to register under FE. They are not stopping people from registering without a teaching qualification.
I work in a post primary school with a large FE college on site. The FE teachers are often given subbing in the school and some teach LCA specialisms. They generally complain endlessly about this and how it's not what they want and not what they are trained for. They generally struggle with classroom management.0 -
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Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »The TC are allowing anyone and everyone to register under FE. They are not stopping people from registering without a teaching qualification.
I work in a post primary school with a large FE college on site. The FE teachers are often given subbing in the school and some teach LCA specialisms. They generally complain endlessly about this and how it's not what they want and not what they are trained for. They generally struggle with classroom management.
Im an FE teacher, where im working there are a number of teachers who have no qualifications at all and some have undergrads and no teacher training but theyve been working there 30 years or have previously worked in FE sectors for years. This wasc hanged in 2013, FE teachers are required to have teacher training, whether or not this is actually being implemented in schools is another issue.
Teaching LCA is challenging but if FE teachers arent up to the challenge or struggle with classroom management how do you suppose FE trained teachers cope with challenging classroom environments such as YouthReach or Special needs centres were classrooms have a range of mixed abilities, behaviour issues, skills and attitudes. - Stating the FE teachers cant teach second level because they struggle with classroom management is a bit ridiculous. That said I know plenty of post primary teachers who cant manage a classroom despite the superior teacher training.0 -
Im an FE teacher, where im working there are a number of teachers who have no qualifications at all and some have undergrads and no teacher training but theyve been working there 30 years or have previously worked in FE sectors for years. This wasc hanged in 2013, FE teachers are required to have teacher training, whether or not this is actually being implemented in schools is another issue.
Teaching LCA is challenging but if FE teachers arent up to the challenge or struggle with classroom management how do you suppose FE trained teachers cope with challenging classroom environments such as YouthReach or Special needs centres were classrooms have a range of mixed abilities, behaviour issues, skills and attitudes. - Stating the FE teachers cant teach second level because they struggle with classroom management is a bit ridiculous. That said I know plenty of post primary teachers who cant manage a classroom despite the superior teacher training.
The requirement for a teaching qualification is not being implemented. My friend is a hairdresser and registered under FE in November to take up a job in my school. And because we're struggling so much with lack of subs everyone has got their daughters/sons/nieces/nephews/friends to register with just a degree so they can cover classes. No problem registering under FE for any of them.
I didn't say the second level teaching qualification is superior - but it is different. And teaching in youthreach is also very different. In my experience classroom management is not such an issue there due to small numbers, fewer issues around compulsory subjects and totally different procedures made to suit the individuals who are there. I certainly found it less challenging in that regard - but more so in other ways, given the nature of how learners end up there in many cases.
I don't personally have much issue with FE teachers with a teaching qualification teaching second level if they're suitably qualified for the subject. But almost no FE teachers have any such training.0 -
Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »The requirement for a teaching qualification is not being implemented. My friend is a hairdresser and registered under FE in November to take up a job in my school. And because we're struggling so much with lack of subs everyone has got their daughters/sons/nieces/nephews/friends to register with just a degree so they can cover classes. No problem registering under FE for any of them.
I didn't say the second level teaching qualification is superior - but it is different. And teaching in youthreach is also very different. In my experience classroom management is not such an issue there due to small numbers, fewer issues around compulsory subjects and totally different procedures made to suit the individuals who are there. I certainly found it less challenging in that regard - but more so in other ways, given the nature of how learners end up there in many cases.
I don't personally have much issue with FE teachers with a teaching qualification teaching second level if they're suitably qualified for the subject. But almost no FE teachers have any such training.
Hairdressers and beauty therapists arent required to have completed teacher training, they cant get into a hdip teacher training course as they often dont have an undergraduate degree. Most will have completed a train the trainer although its not necessarily required for their subject if they want to teach.
Ive had up to 20 students in a class, smaller numbers isnt always a given in a classroom environment - Most FE teachers dont have teacher training because it wasnt required until 2013 and the fact its not implemented is another issue. The Hdip in further ed course was only introduced in the last 6 or 7 years, many ETBs wearnt even aware of it up until the last number of years. After I completed my Dip I went for an interview in an ETB and I was asked what the qualification was. There is certainly some miscommunication and lack of awareness among ETB's and recommended or required qualifications. I put this down to management within ETBs having no formal qualifications themselves and being in the job 30+ years hiring equally unqualified staff, - there has been little change or regulation to ETB's over the years and they dont seem to be aware of teaching qualifications for the sector, that said there are a number of qualified FE teachers in my school. There is also a certain paranoia among long time etb staff and management that they will be pushed out of a job and replaced by qualified FE teachers - Its evident it in my own work environment and I do feel management consider this when hiring new staff. - I feel it does influence schools not implementing qualification requirements.
There are allot of qualified fe teachers, my Dip class had 42 students and many went on to complete a masters in further education and training, all of them are working in ETB's and some are employed in secondary schools as unqualified teachers receiving the unqualified pay.
Im not suggesting that people with no teacher training qualifications should be allowed to teach second level, im suggesting that those who have completed the Hdip in further ed which is a standard 1 year teacher training course should be permitted to as the course is not a hundred miles away from post primary training by any means.0 -
Please don't assume that all further Ed teachers are unqualified. Where I work, all but one has a primary degree and most of those has a h dip in secondary. Many have taught in second level schools in the past.
Most are part time but when they try to get more hours in second level they are turned down because of this preception that further Ed is easy. Try a class with ex cons, drug users, people who were expelled from secondary and haven't changed much since, along with students who have very little english etc.
Further Ed students are not all dedicated adults eager to grasp an opportunity to get an education. Some are barely adults in age and / or attitude. Some are there because they couldn't get anything else or because the social made them go. Many have no interest at all and the attendance is dire and not chased up by management. Yet, teachers are expected to produce results. I could go on...
Further Ed covers a wide range of different clientele so it's unfair and incorrect to make general assumptions about the teachers and students there.0 -
Hairdressers may not need a teaching qualification but that doesn't explain why they are registering everyone else with degrees and no teaching qualifications.
As for management in ETBs not being qualified - that's not my experience. I work in one of the largest ETBs in the country with dozens of schools and every single principal and DP has a masters in leadership and management. Those without don't even make shortlisting.
I know there can be larger classes in FE - I teach them - but even at 20 it's far lower than in most second level groups - but my comment referred specifically to youthreach - very unusual to have so many there. I've taught in youthreach, youth detention, prison and currently teach between second level and FE. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the different sectors.0 -
Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »Hairdressers may not need a teaching qualification but that doesn't explain why theg are registering everyone else with degrees and no teaching qualifications.
As for management in ETBs not being qualified - that's not my experience. I work in one of the largest ETBs in the country with dozens of schools and every single principal and DP has a masters in leadership and management. Those without don't even make shortlisting.
I know there can be larger classes in FE - I teach them - but even at 20 it's far lower than ban most second level groups.but my comment referred specifically to youthreach - very unusual to have so many there. I've taught in youthreach, prison and currently teach between second level and FE. I think I have a pretty good understanding of tbe different sectors.
Sorry my statement about unqualified management related to teaching qualifications. Im not denying that etbs are employing unqualified teachers with no teacher training, this happens often and it is an issue. It is required by teaching council - I know as while on my course I had an assignment which required extensive research into FE sector and requirements - white paper etc for a history and policy class. The issue is its not being implemented and unqualified FE teachers can still register because FE sector covers so many different areas its not being regulated and quite frankly undermined by the teaching council.
FE teachers dont just work in youthreach, they work in a whole range of different sectors the point is the further ed training course is sufficient to enable fe trained teachers to work in second level schools. I have FE teacher trained friends working in post primary on the 'unqualified' pay scale with no issues in regards to classroom management, class sizes or teaching subjects, these teachers have undergrads in the subject they teach + a standard Hdip teacher training, the only thing that separates their Hdip from Hdip post primary is the title of the course. I remember when doing my Hdip at times there was frustration among students as so much of the course covered second level ed and education as a general theme and not enough focus on specifically teaching adult learners, despite classes on holistic learning and taking students life experience into consideration and also an emphasis on issues such as students being paid to be in the class and ensuring they gain something from the learning environment - particularly students who had bad experiences with school, and our history and policy had a strong focus on FE everything else was general teacher training on an accredited teacher training course in a university with potential to progress to masters level. We covered Counselling, Philosophy, methodologies, curriculum, sociology, psychology to name but a few and completed extensive teacher training on our placements.
If youre unaware of the structure and content of a Hdip in further ed course its completely unfair and uninformed to state that these teachers cant or shouldnt teach post primary. And just as unqualified teachers can register with FE unqualified teachers can register for second level, they just receive lower pay.0 -
I am familiar with the content of the FE teaching qualification - I don't know why you think I'm not. I have been cooperating teacher for some students on the course.
I am also fully aware that FE teachers can teach in different settings than youthreach - just because I made specific comments about youthreach doesn't mean I think it's the only place they work. Not sure why you think that when I've already said I have experience in second level, prison and youth detention also - working alongside those registered in FE.
As regards ETB management with no teaching qualification it's definitely not the case in any of our schools.
Your last sentence is not true. Unqualified people cannot register in second level. Up to April 2013 you could register in a special VEC Only category that covered VEC second level (and they don't receive lower pay other than not receiving the Hdip qualification allowance if on the pre 2011 scale). That category does not exist for new entrants any more. But people are registering right now in FE with no teaching qualification. And I know the Teaching Council Act stated that a teaching qualification would be required going forward for FE but the fact is they are not implementing it. There's a half a dozen people subbing in my school registered with just a degree in the past 3 months. It's not about whether the ETB understands the regulations it's about the fact the TC is handing out FE registration to people with no teacher training.0 -
Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »I am familiar with the content of the FE teaching qualification - I don't know why you think I'm not. I have been cooperating teacher for some students on the course.
I am also fully aware that FE teachers can teach in different settings than youthreach - just because I made specific comments about youthreach doesn't mean I think it's the only place they work. Not sure why you think that when I've already said I have experience in second level, prison and youth detention also - working alongside those registered in FE.
As regards ETB management with no teaching qualification it's definitely not the case in any of our schools.
Your last sentence is not true. Unqualified people cannot register in second level. Up to April 2013 you could register in a special VEC Only category that covered VEC second level (and they don't receive lower pay other than not receiving the Hdip qualification allowance if on the pre 2011 scale). That category does not exist for new entrants any more. But people are registering right now in FE with no teaching qualification. And I know the Teaching Council Act stated that a teaching qualification would be required going forward for FE but the fact is they are not implementing it. There's a half a dozen people subbing in my school registered with just a degree in the past 3 months. It's not about whether the ETB understands the regulations it's about the fact the TC is handing out FE registration to people with no teacher training.
Throughout these posts youve insisted on not taking anything ive said on board, youve argued with every point ive made and instead of having a conversation about how the situation of lack of teacher shortages can be improved you only want to be right - you dont want to accept or understand someone elses point of view. In every post I have mentioned that ETBs arent implementing qualification standards in Fe schools and TC are not regulating FE teachers registering .. I dont know why you keep bringing this up?
As for the main point, post was initially about - Fe trained teachers - I'll post that again 'trained teachers' - im not talking about tutors - which is what an unqualified teacher is called - (btw anyone can register with teaching council as a tutor) im discussing trained teachers - whove completed similar courses to the one I outlined above which is a postgraduate teaching dip - they should be permitted to work in secondary schools, they are more than capable, suitably educated and it will improve the teacher shortage situation. Its completely ridiculous to cancel classes and leave children with free periods during their school day because no teacher is available while there are hundreds of teacher trained fe teachers with undergrads and masters in subjects like maths and languages. The fact this isnt even being entertained and the alternative is to leave students with no teacher at all speaks for itself. There is an undermining of FE trained teachers and their ability to teach. I will also add your statement on unqualified post primary teachers is completely untrue. A woman from my undergrad has recently taken up a teaching position in post primary - she has a masters but no teaching qualifications. - Schools dont always implement required qualifications in either section.0 -
Throughout these posts youve insisted on not taking anything ive said on board, youve argued with every point ive made and instead of having a conversation about how the situation of lack of teacher shortages can be improved you only want to be right - you dont want to accept or understand someone elses point of view.
I have no idea why you think I'm not taking your points on board. I have stated in black and white that I personally don't have much problem with FE teachers with a teaching qualification teaching at second level. The reason I continue to respond is to discuss points you make to me - particularly when your posts quoting me have argued things with me I have not even stated.benvben wrote:I will also add your statement on unqualified post primary teachers is completely untrue. A woman from my undergrad has recently taken up a teaching position in post primary - she has a masters but no teaching qualifications. - Schools dont always implement required qualifications in either section.
My comment is about registering with the Teaching Council under the post primary category with no second level teaching qualification. It cannot be done - while it can be done under FE without the appropriate qualification. I did not say unqualified people could not be employed at second level. Of course your friend can teach in second level without the qualification - she can be registered under FE and once registered in any category you can teach and be paid in any sector. I myself gave the example of this happening in my school to cope with the sub shortage.
I don't think FE teachers will get support for any campaign to be registered to teach in second level unless their qualification is also a two year Masters. Second level teachers and unions are not going to stand by while their members have to complete a PME, if a one year Hdip would allow someone be considered equally qualified for the job and entitled to the same pay. I don't think the change to the PME was necessary, or a good idea, but while it remains the necessary qualification for second level then the FE qualification won't be accepted. In terms of using FE trained teachers when no qualified second level teacher can be found - I don't think anyone objects to that as it stands and it's already happening in schools across the country.0 -
I will also note that I don't think using FE trained teachers will improve the shortage much becuse they are not available to work in Dublin either. My school is post primary and FE and we are already using FE teachers as much as we can. We are also short FE teachers in some areas. The issues with low pay making working in Dublin unaffordable apply to FE exactly the same. And the issues around part time hours making teaching unattractive and unsustainable are even more pronounced as specialist modules rarely make up a full timetable. Our FE teachers routinely teach across three different ETB centres locally if they teach specialised subjects (rather than general ones like Communications) but they still struggle to get full hours.0
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I hear conflicting reports as to where the shortfall is. I think its widely accepted that STEM teachers and language teachers are few and far between. Are there any subjects for which there are too many teachers? What about offering qualified teachers who have subjects which are in over supply the opportunity to train in a shortage subject such as maths or Irish?0
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MattSkilbeck wrote: »I hear conflicting reports as to where the shortfall is. I think its widely accepted that STEM teachers and language teachers are few and far between. Are there any subjects for which there are too many teachers? What about offering qualified teachers who have subjects which are in over supply the opportunity to train in a shortage subject such as maths or Irish?
To train properly in a language would take a few years along with residential stays. The government are not going to pay for this.0 -
A niece of mine is going off to Qatar teaching for a year, if not more. Newly qualified primary teacher with good grades, spent a year here subbing but off she goes as she can save up for a house.
We live in a global labour market, our Primary school teachers realise that. But the Teaching council, Unions and the Dept. of Education have yet to cop on.0 -
She's dead right. It's what, 500 or so points to do primary teaching? And you're expected to wait years for a contact? People that study hard, and work well deserve to be paid well. These people are really good, top performing students.
I wouldn't, and I know loads of my colleagues who wouldn't, recommend teaching as a career for a family member.0 -
A niece of mine is going off to Qatar teaching for a year, if not more. Newly qualified primary teacher with good grades, spent a year here subbing but off she goes as she can save up for a house.
We live in a global labour market, our Primary school teachers realise that. But the Teaching council, Unions and the Dept. of Education have yet to cop on.
Fair play to her.
What would you propose to entice her to stay in Ireland to curtail the shortage?0 -
I handed out my cv on Monday and the next day I received phone calls from 3 schools asking to sub for french (never been to the schools before, and are 30 mins from my house. Before I get the you are taking jobs from NQT people again. The school had no reason to ring me other than they could not get anyone else). Anyways, does anyone know how it works in post primary, we get paid for the hours we work? I've 8 classes so I would presume that would be the full day?0
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I handed out my cv on Monday and the next day I received phone calls from 3 schools asking to sub for french (never been to the schools before, and are 30 mins from my house. Before I get the you are taking jobs from NQT people again. The school had no reason to ring me other than they could not get anyone else). Anyways, does anyone know how it works in post primary, we get paid for the hours we work? I've 8 classes so I would presume that would be the full day?
You are a primary school teacher. You are not qualified to teach secondary. Please do not do it. Regardless of shortage of jobs we do not want unsuitably qualified teachers. It's that simple.
Out of interest why aren't you working in the primary sector? People currently paying 10,000 euro to qualify for something you have no qualifications in will anger people.
BTW I am not one of these ppl I am permanent but I would not wish to work with sb unqualified. It undermines the profession regardless of any shortages.0 -
You are a primary school teacher. You are not qualified to teach secondary. Please do not do it. Regardless of shortage of jobs we do not want unsuitably qualified teachers. It's that simple.
Out of interest why aren't you working in the primary sector? People currently paying 10,000 euro to qualify for something you have no qualifications in will anger people.
BTW I am not one of these ppl I am permanent but I would not wish to work with sb unqualified. It undermines the profession regardless of any shortages.
So what is the other solution then? The students have 4 days of supervision with a teacher who can't speak the languages just over a month from the orals? I understand your concern, but sometimes you have to put that aside when it's come to the student. I got an A1 in both languages at LC, I've studied them for 4 years, lived and worked in both countries, give grinds. I know I paid those fees 12,400 plus 1,500 for the gaetlacht, still paying them back actually, hence why I'm taking the subbing. I'm in the same situation where primary schools in my area are not struggling to find subs.0 -
So what is the other solution then? The students have 4 days of supervision with a teacher who can't speak the languages just over a month from the orals? I understand your concern, but sometimes you have to put that aside when it's come to the student. I got an A1 in both languages at LC, I've studied them for 4 years, lived and worked in both countries, give grinds. I know I paid those fees 12,400 plus 1,500 for the gaetlacht, still paying them back actually, hence why I'm taking the subbing. I'm in the same situation where primary schools in my area are not struggling to find subs.
There IS no short term solution but that is not really your problem. Just because there is a shortage doesn't mean we stick sb in who does the know what they're doing. That's not an insult. You simply can't know what you're doing when youre not a sec school teacher. It really doesn't matter what your qualifications are. I'm sure youre great. It doesn't matter what your level if French is. You don't need an A in French to teach it in any case. The shortage of teacher is this way because of a massive deterioration in conditions. Allowing non qualified teachers to teach, even in the short term., undermines the professional. EVEN further.0 -
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I handed out my cv on Monday and the next day I received phone calls from 3 schools asking to sub for french (never been to the schools before, and are 30 mins from my house. Before I get the you are taking jobs from NQT people again. The school had no reason to ring me other than they could not get anyone else). Anyways, does anyone know how it works in post primary, we get paid for the hours we work? I've 8 classes so I would presume that would be the full day?
Yould have to ask the school really.
8 classes? Could be spread over the week like 2-3 classes a day.0
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