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Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?
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evolving_doors wrote: »Yould have to ask the school really.
8 classes? Could be spread over the week like 2-3 classes a day.
They said that it's 8 classes in the one day.0 -
They said that it's 8 classes in the one day.
Presume then it's hourly unqualified rate! Scroll down here
https://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scales-and-qualification-allowances/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-january-2011/
So inculding holiday pay it's bout e40 odd before tax etc0 -
Should probably consider extending the holiday periods to attract new blood to the indusrty0
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Autochange wrote: »Should probably consider extending the holiday periods to attract new blood to the indusrty
Holidays don't pay the rent.0 -
There IS no short term solution but that is not really your problem. Just because there is a shortage doesn't mean we stick sb in who does the know what they're doing. That's not an insult. You simply can't know what you're doing when youre not a sec school teacher. It really doesn't matter what your qualifications are. I'm sure youre great. It doesn't matter what your level if French is. You don't need an A in French to teach it in any case. The shortage of teacher is this way because of a massive deterioration in conditions. Allowing non qualified teachers to teach, even in the short term., undermines the professional. EVEN further.
In all due respect... they'll figure it out soon enough... From what I remember from my teacher training... lots of theory which meant eff all to my teaching practice, everything I learned about secondary teaching was because I had to face classes every day in whatever subbing I could get... I graduated in 2008 and couldn't get hired for love nor money... due to persistence it worked out for me but I now teach internationally. So my advice is if they're willing to hire and you have bills to pay... get yours.0 -
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Autochange wrote: »Should probably consider extending the holiday periods to attract new blood to the indusrty
I think you're probably being sarcastic here but altering holidays is definitely not the way forward. The holidays are most appealing to a certain demographic and in and of themself are not really much of a draw to a lot of people. I know the holidays are of little interest to me personally - though I would certainly oppose any further deterioration in conditions if they were under threat. In fact I think the fact that the holidays are now the only attractive part of the job is a big reason we have such a narrow demographic in teaching by and large. But shortening the holidays would be a disaster altogether and would certainly push a lot of people already in the profession to make up their mind and leave, exacerbating the current shortages even more.0 -
Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »I think you're probably being sarcastic here but altering holidays is definitely not the way forward. The holidays are most appealing to a certain demographic and in and of themself are not really much of a draw to a lot of people. I know the holidays are of little interest to me personally - though I would certainly oppose any further deterioration in conditions if they were under threat. In fact I think the fact that the holidays are now the only attractive part of the job is a big reason we have such a narrow demographic in teaching by and large. But shortening the holidays would be a disaster altogether and would certainly push a lot of people already in the profession to make up their mind and leave, exacerbating the current shortages even more.
Granted that the pay over or before the holiday periods are worked in during the year and as you mentioned these are probably the biggest draw to the profession. But what is the real deterioration in conditions as compared to other industries? There is a climbing salary scale, pension and the previously mentioned holiday time off that isnt present in many other professions. The holidays length in particular are non existent in any other.
My point is what exactly is the problem?0 -
Autochange wrote: »Granted that the pay over or before the holiday periods are worked in during the year and as you mentioned these are probably the biggest draw to the profession. But what is the real deterioration in conditions as compared to other industries? There is a climbing salary scale, pension and the previously mentioned holiday time off that isnt present in many other professions. The holidays length in particular are non existent in any other.
My point is what exactly is the problem?
I think we're all aware the holidays are unique. Hardly a groundbreaking observation. For me the problem is that the money is not enough and the holidays don't compensate - and I'm not even on the new lower scale or significantly worse pension scheme. I retrained as a teacher - I have worked in private sector and self employed - so well aware of how teaching compares to other options requiring similar qualifications and years of study. I'll reluctantly be returning to private sector permanently in June and probably back to self employed again in another year or two once I'm established again.
So you might think the terms and conditions are good enough but I don't and clearly neither do plenty of others given the current situation.0 -
Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »I think we're all aware the holidays are unique. Hardly a groundbreaking observation. For me the problem is that the money is not enough and the holidays don't compensate - and I'm not even on the new lower scale or significantly worse pension scheme. I retrained as a teacher - I have worked in private sector and self employed - so well aware of how teaching compares to other options requiring similar qualifications and years of study. I'll reluctantly be returning to private sector permanently in June and probably back to self employed again in another year or two once I'm established again.
So you might think the terms and conditions are good enough but I don't and clearly neither do plenty of others given the current situation.
It wasn't meant to be groundbreaking. It was getting the facts together before putting my question to you. Which you answered.
I cant see anything drastic changing any time soon. You already have a union in place, shortage of staff and lets be honest play a very important role in society but dont feel like you are being payed correctly.
So its basically put up with it and end up maybe hating going to work everyday or leave and do something else but lose out on the only favorable perks.0 -
Yes I don't think it will change either because I don't think Irish society values teachers or teaching. I would never hate going to work because I really enjoy being in the classroom. I wish I could afford to stay in teaching! I think teaching now is only really viable for people in parts of the country with a lower cost of living or who can rely on a partner or family for financial support. I don't have that luxury. And I really don't feel I'm giving up any favourable perks from my own perspective. The holidays are not something I personally value and you can't live on the future hope of a pension that may not even materialise. Securing accommodation so I won't be house sharing and struggling with rent in my 50s is my number one priority. And teaching doesn't afford me that opportunity.0
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Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »Yes I don't think it will change either because I don't think Irish society values teachers or teaching. I would never hate going to work because I really enjoy being in the classroom. I wish I could afford to stay in teaching! I think teaching now is only really viable for people in parts of the country with a lower cost of living or who can rely on a partner or family for financial support. I don't have that luxury. And I really don't feel I'm giving up any favourable perks from my own perspective. The holidays are not something I personally value and you can't live on the future hope of a pension that may not even materialise. Securing accommodation so I won't be house sharing and struggling with rent in my 50s is my number one priority. And teaching doesn't afford me that opportunity.
Looks like you have made up your mind. Its a shame really but as you listed above you have legitimate reasons and are aware of the reality of the situation.0 -
Autochange wrote: »Granted that the pay over or before the holiday periods are worked in during the year and as you mentioned these are probably the biggest draw to the profession. But what is the real deterioration in conditions as compared to other industries? There is a climbing salary scale, pension and the previously mentioned holiday time off that isnt present in many other professions. The holidays length in particular are non existent in any other.
My point is what exactly is the problem?
Emmett Stocky Puma already answered your question on the poor pay, especially for those living in Dublin,most especially single people.
Another problem is the long hours during term time. Certain subjects, like English, require huge work. It's a subject where the material constantly changes,hence constant study for the teacher, in addition to the large volume of corrections at LC higher level. Imagine 30, 5 page essays to correct on a very regular basis! There was a time when a certain amount of this work could be done during free periods at school, but one example of worsening conditions was the introduction of mandatory supervision and substitution which caught thousands of young and not so young teachers. And effectively halved the number of free periods.
On top of this most younger teachers are obliged to voluntarily offer at least one extra curricular. So there are huge numbers of teachers in this country who arrive home after an exhausting day at school only to have to face more hours bent over the books. Because no way could you face into the modern classroom unprepared.And I won't bore you on all the extra hours that have come in this past decade, administrative hours which all teachers have to deliver. Factor poor pay into this equation and it's pretty easy to see why people want out.0 -
Shorten the holidays and pay them more.
It's all about the money, money, money....0 -
Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »Yes I don't think it will change either because I don't think Irish society values teachers or teaching. I would never hate going to work because I really enjoy being in the classroom. I wish I could afford to stay in teaching! I think teaching now is only really viable for people in parts of the country with a lower cost of living or who can rely on a partner or family for financial support. I don't have that luxury. And I really don't feel I'm giving up any favourable perks from my own perspective. The holidays are not something I personally value and you can't live on the future hope of a pension that may not even materialise. Securing accommodation so I won't be house sharing and struggling with rent in my 50s is my number one priority. And teaching doesn't afford me that opportunity.
I feel genuinely saddened reading this post Emmett Stocky Puma. Any teacher who enjoys the classroom is clearly meant for the classroom so there is no doubt that you will be an enormous loss, not just to your school, but to education in general. The walls of Bruton's office should be daubed with stories like these and there are many! But he probably still wouldn't care!
I was fortunate to join the profession at a time when teaching was valued and when teachers, whether partnered or single, could enjoy a decent standard of living. And highly qualified professionals deserve no less. I've been truly horrified by the deterioration of conditions, the total withdrawal of public goodwill, replaced by media induced hostility and that we have now reached a stage where many teachers can no longer adequately support themselves, is shameful.
Every good wish to you Emmett Stocky Puma. You are right to be so pragmatic and of course you must plan for your future. I really hope you prosper in your new career!0 -
evolving_doors wrote: »Fair play to her.
What would you propose to entice her to stay in Ireland to curtail the shortage?
A big issue is permanency not pay as many would insist upon. The casualisation of the teaching profession has been a snowball that keeps building and there are many to blame for that.
Funding of course from the Dept of Education is one but and I dare say a less popular argument to make is that the Unions for decades have let this go on as their primary objective was always about core pay. Understandable really as their members were more likely to have good permanent positions, so why concentrate efforts on NQT and getting them permanent jobs? Its come back to bite them a bit now.
Then again, casualisation/contracting is a global trend in most professions, so teaching is not any different.
Anyway, to answer your question, ease of getting a permanent job would be the best way to keep NQT's here.0 -
Speaking to a friend of mine recently. He is terminally ill and had to give up teaching last year. Anyway, he got a letter in the post from the Teaching Council asking for their yearly pound of flesh. He responded by saying that he is dying and wont be around much longer. You would think that would be enough. Nope.
They sent him another letter stating that if they did not get their yearly fee, that will be obliged to cut him off from his payments.
It got sorted in the end but christ the TC should be seriously looked.0 -
There IS no short term solution but that is not really your problem. Just because there is a shortage doesn't mean we stick sb in who does the know what they're doing. That's not an insult. You simply can't know what you're doing when youre not a sec school teacher. It really doesn't matter what your qualifications are. I'm sure youre great. It doesn't matter what your level if French is. You don't need an A in French to teach it in any case. The shortage of teacher is this way because of a massive deterioration in conditions. Allowing non qualified teachers to teach, even in the short term., undermines the professional. EVEN further.
I think this post says a lot about the teaching profession in Ireland and not in a good way.0 -
Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »Yes I don't think it will change either because I don't think Irish society values teachers or teaching. I would never hate going to work because I really enjoy being in the classroom. I wish I could afford to stay in teaching! I think teaching now is only really viable for people in parts of the country with a lower cost of living or who can rely on a partner or family for financial support. I don't have that luxury. And I really don't feel I'm giving up any favourable perks from my own perspective. The holidays are not something I personally value and you can't live on the future hope of a pension that may not even materialise. Securing accommodation so I won't be house sharing and struggling with rent in my 50s is my number one priority. And teaching doesn't afford me that opportunity.
I think you think wrong. Irish people do value education, actually its one of our best traits. However, the present issue is complicated with plenty of blame on all sides. Its easy to blame society than ask hard questions.
If there is a negative attitude towards teachers themselves (different to education generally) its because of the way the Unions have handled the situation for the past number of years. Quite simply they have lost the PR war.
Contrast generally publics attitude to say nursing? Chalk and cheese. The INMO are arguably the best Union in the country and they know if they are backed into a corner the public WILL have their back. Government knows this too so they are willing to work together. The INMO also appear (again a lot is about appearance) much more reasonable in the public's eye.
The ASTI in particular forget that public goodwill means a lot. If you do not have it, then you are going to lose in the long run. It may not be right or fair, but when is life right or fair. Why people are still members of the ASTI I have no idea.
My parents are still alive and are well into their 80's with almost 100 years combined of teaching experience behind them. They went on strike back in the 60's for 3 months to get better pay and conditions so they know how to fight their corner. They would have been members of the ASTI all that time. If I talk to them now about the profession, they just sum it up by saying the Unions are finished and they only have themselves to blame. They got disillusioned with them about 30 years ago, they saw the writing on the wall that they were only interested in core pay for existing members and not about education or getting new teachers into the profession. Benchmarking anyone? It has come back to haunt them. That is their words, not mine and they would be still well clued up on the ground with what the schools, the ASTI and the Dept. of Education is doing.
For balance, they don't have much time for the current minister for education nor his predecessor.0 -
Contrast generally publics attitude to say nursing? Chalk and cheese. The INMO are arguably the best Union in the country and they know if they are backed into a corner the public WILL have their back. Government knows this too so they are willing to work together. The INMO also appear (again a lot is about appearance) much more reasonable in the public's eye.
I know a lot of nurses who definitely wouldn't think that about the INMO....especially when they talk about their working conditions.....They think Liam Doran sounds good but ultimately the union does **** all for them, they also think the NMBI is a quango similar to our Teaching Council just another money suck quango coming up with reasons to justify its existence for a yearly fee while frontline nurses actually do the work.
Maybe its just me but while its worth having the public onside.....very worthwhile, some of the biggest union victories lately have involved not giving a toss about what the public thinks or kow towing to unfair expectations etc and being prepared to fight and sacrifice for that fight over the long term.
That imo is the biggest failing with some teaching unions and part of the blame has to be with the meek and mild appease the public section of their membership.........
You do I think make a good point about PR however...but its hard to compete with Govt, publicly funded media and the increasingly right wing free market above all else private media all singing off the same hymn sheet the tune which lets face it certain sections of their audience only love to hear...and its quite amazing to me how many seem to lap it up without question or critique as long as it somewhat matches the tune in their own heads however misdirected or flawed that might be.
I reckon they won't be happy until the thing has ground to a halt/is completely dysfunctional before they learn they have to pay appropriately and leave conditions when you are working feasible if they want any half decent education system...and if they don't then prepare to lose quality workers in the future because anyone with insight, ambition or half a brain would seriously question going into teaching in the future the way it is going....and as strange as this might seem on quality of life issues alone imo. Many in it are already delighted their time is nearly at an end, or hoping for an early exit or looking actively for alternatives....It will make its way to or below the kind of standards seen in SOME international systems with an average career length of 5 years, huge teacher turnover and box ticking for the sake of it etc etc0 -
I think you think wrong. Irish people do value education, actually its one of our best traits. However, the present issue is complicated with plenty of blame on all sides. Its easy to blame society than ask hard questions.
If there is a negative attitude towards teachers themselves (different to education generally) its because of the way the Unions have handled the situation for the past number of years. Quite simply they have lost the PR war.
Contrast generally publics attitude to say nursing? Chalk and cheese. The INMO are arguably the best Union in the country and they know if they are backed into a corner the public WILL have their back. Government knows this too so they are willing to work together. The INMO also appear (again a lot is about appearance) much more reasonable in the public's eye.
The ASTI in particular forget that public goodwill means a lot. If you do not have it, then you are going to lose in the long run. It may not be right or fair, but when is life right or fair. Why people are still members of the ASTI I have no idea.
My parents are still alive and are well into their 80's with almost 100 years combined of teaching experience behind them. They went on strike back in the 60's for 3 months to get better pay and conditions so they know how to fight their corner. They would have been members of the ASTI all that time. If I talk to them now about the profession, they just sum it up by saying the Unions are finished and they only have themselves to blame. They got disillusioned with them about 30 years ago, they saw the writing on the wall that they were only interested in core pay for existing members and not about education or getting new teachers into the profession. Benchmarking anyone? It has come back to haunt them. That is their words, not mine and they would be still well clued up on the ground with what the schools, the ASTI and the Dept. of Education is doing.
For balance, they don't have much time for the current minister for education nor his predecessor.
There’s a negative attitude to teaching because of the holidays and perceived short working day.
On another note, your parents taught for 50 years each??0 -
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I think you think wrong. Irish people do value education, actually its one of our best traits. However, the present issue is complicated with plenty of blame on all sides. Its easy to blame society than ask hard questions.
If there is a negative attitude towards teachers themselves (different to education generally) its because of the way the Unions have handled the situation for the past number of years. Quite simply they have lost the PR war.
Contrast generally publics attitude to say nursing? Chalk and cheese. The INMO are arguably the best Union in the country and they know if they are backed into a corner the public WILL have their back. Government knows this too so they are willing to work together. The INMO also appear (again a lot is about appearance) much more reasonable in the public's eye.
The ASTI in particular forget that public goodwill means a lot. If you do not have it, then you are going to lose in the long run. It may not be right or fair, but when is life right or fair. Why people are still members of the ASTI I have no idea.
My parents are still alive and are well into their 80's with almost 100 years combined of teaching experience behind them. They went on strike back in the 60's for 3 months to get better pay and conditions so they know how to fight their corner. They would have been members of the ASTI all that time. If I talk to them now about the profession, they just sum it up by saying the Unions are finished and they only have themselves to blame. They got disillusioned with them about 30 years ago, they saw the writing on the wall that they were only interested in core pay for existing members and not about education or getting new teachers into the profession. Benchmarking anyone? It has come back to haunt them. That is their words, not mine and they would be still well clued up on the ground with what the schools, the ASTI and the Dept. of Education is doing.
For balance, they don't have much time for the current minister for education nor his predecessor.
There’s a negative attitude to teaching because of the holidays and perceived short working day.
On another note, your parents taught for 50 years each??
Also because of the nature of the activity. Everyone thinks they can teach because they were a student for so long. Very few other professions have such long periods of contact with the recipient of the service.
The Dunning Kreugar effect kicks in then and this results in Mary who hasn't worked in her life thinking she can do the job and also tech moguls from silicon valley who believe every student is like them and they can "revolutionise" teaching. Teachers get caught in the middle of this blizzard of egregious crap and are viewed as childminders effectively.0 -
There’s a negative attitude to teaching because of the holidays and perceived short working day.
On another note, your parents taught for 50 years each??
Possibly so. It doesn't help as well that one Union is threatening continuous industrial action of some sort.
The mother has 41 years of teaching, the father has 44 years. As I said, almost the guts of 100 years. They are out the game now a while but keep a close eye on the scene.0 -
Possibly so. It doesn't help as well that one Union is threatening continuous industrial action of some sort.
The mother has 41 years of teaching, the father has 44 years. As I said, almost the guts of 100 years. They are out the game now a while but keep a close eye on the scene.
Believe me, It really helps when a Union is threatening industrial action. Without it we’d be in a worse off place than we are.
Think of it like “a bomb will go off in Dublin”. Threats work. Consequences matter. I didn’t really understand whatever point it was you were trying make anyway?0 -
Believe me, It really helps when a Union is threatening industrial action. Without it we’d be in a worse off place than we are.
Think of it like “a bomb will go off in Dublin”. Threats work. Consequences matter. I didn’t really understand whatever point it was you were trying make anyway?
There is only so many times you can go to the well before it runs dry with that type of action. Sure a militant approach can work sometimes, but you turn people off, especially the public.
For a Unions to be always on a war footing is neither helpful for teachers or students in the long run. I think this would be self evident by this stage.0 -
Believe me, It really helps when a Union is threatening industrial action. Without it we’d be in a worse off place than we are.
Think of it like “a bomb will go off in Dublin”. Threats work. Consequences matter. I didn’t really understand whatever point it was you were trying make anyway?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's really all the Union's fault mmmkay. See his last ten posts.0 -
There is only so many times you can go to the well before it runs dry with that type of action. Sure a militant approach can work sometimes, but you turn people off, especially the public.
For a Unions to be always on a war footing is neither helpful for teachers or students in the long run. I think this would be self evident by this stage.
Teachers were the well that the dept kept going to over and over from May 2009 until this very day. Teachers didn’t have a single victory. Everything teachers got was paid for with their own money. Had there been a proper strike once the relentless attacks came we would have been on better shape today.
So would the students by the way. They might have Irish, French, Spanish, Home Ec, Maths and Physics teachers.
And this thing about winning over the public, teachers will always struggle to win over the public. They resent our holidays and perceived short working day. I care not one not about what they think!0 -
evolving_doors wrote: »^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's really all the Union's fault mmmkay. See his last ten posts.
No, you can see my scathing comments on the Teaching Council as well, but if deflecting criticism is your way out of reflecting on the here and now then so be it.0 -
Teachers were the well that the dept kept going to over and over from May 2009 until this very day. Teachers didn’t have a single victory. Everything teachers got was paid for with their own money. Had there been a proper strike once the relentless attacks came we would have been on better shape today.
This is not entirely true. No permanent teacher lost their job in the last crisis. That would be down as a victory. New entrants were thrown under the bus to protect current permanent teachers.
You would have been a brave man to advocate for a long all out strike in the middle of an economic crisis. This was a time when the nation was bankrupt, unemployment was at 15% and emigration was again rearing its head. It would have been suicide by any Union to advocate an all out strike.So would the students by the way. They might have Irish, French, Spanish, Home Ec, Maths and Physics teachers.
I agree in a way. Lets advertise for these all over the world. I am sure there are plenty of good Math, Physics, Spanish and French teachers all over the EU. Lets go out and hire them, no?And this thing about winning over the public, teachers will always struggle to win over the public. They resent our holidays and perceived short working day. I care not one not about what they think!
The woe-me attitude is all well and good but do the public in other nations view teachers that way? Not really from my experience living both in the UK, Germany and the US. Ok, different system in the US.0 -
I agree in a way. Lets advertise for these all over the world. I am sure there are plenty of good Math, Physics, Spanish and French teachers all over the EU. Lets go out and hire them, no?
Oh they should definitely do that...at the same time though they should tell prospective employees about the cost of living here, the health system/health insurance, the pupil teacher ratio (not just the headline figure but what it equates to in a lot of classroom settings), the poor back up when it comes to disciplinary issues, the lack of resourcing (and not just physical resources), the "reforms", the tax rates and tax thresholds, the cost of accommodation/property, the barriers to investing in ones own pension, the point at which capital gains tax kicks in if you wish to invest in stocks/shares/ETFs etc etc, the other employment opportunities for teachers out there.....
Then again I reckon the won't have to do that...the smart ones with options will have already done their sums.0 -
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This is not entirely true. No permanent teacher lost their job in the last crisis. That would be down as a victory. New entrants were thrown under the bus to protect current permanent teachers.
You would have been a brave man to advocate for a long all out strike in the middle of an economic crisis. This was a time when the nation was bankrupt, unemployment was at 15% and emigration was again rearing its head. It would have been suicide by any Union to advocate an all out strike.
I agree in a way. Lets advertise for these all over the world. I am sure there are plenty of good Math, Physics, Spanish and French teachers all over the EU. Lets go out and hire them, no?
The woe-me attitude is all well and good but do the public in other nations view teachers that way? Not really from my experience living both in the UK, Germany and the US. Ok, different system in the US.
As I’ve said to dozens of other people who are misinformed on the new entrant pay.....The Unions did not throw anyone under a bus. The two-tier scales were announced from the floor of the Dail. No negotiation. Please inform yourself of the facts and then we can continue the discussion.0
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