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Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

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    #422
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    markodaly wrote: »
    No, you can see my scathing comments on the Teaching Council as well, but if deflecting criticism is your way out of reflecting on the here and now then so be it.

    It's not deflecting criticism. It's deflecting uninformed criticism.
    And I take a guess you're getting that 'young teachers were thrown under a bus' from someone else too. I've heard teachers trot that out sitting beside me at lunch (as they head off for yet another daly lunchtime meeting).
    See below.
    doc_17 wrote: »
    As I’ve said to dozens of other people who are misinformed on the new entrant pay.....The Unions did not throw anyone under a bus. The two-tier scales were announced from the floor of the Dail. No negotiation. Please inform yourself of the facts and then we can continue the discussion.

    Bringing the unions into it is just rabble rousing, especially when this has been an issue raised by unions on countless occasions (but you wouldn't have been informed of that).

    I can only speak for secondary, but as regards the 'here and now'; looking to recruit from abroad is a bad idea, especially without changing the terms and conditions of employment. i.e. offering someone a permanent contract for a teacher on maternity leave or sick leave for 6 months, and that isn't really going to wash.

    Plus there's pull factors from industry (languages, maths, 3 sciences, food sciences). Maybe it's time for bench-marking again!
    Which would be ironic given that teachers are still operating under FEMPI!!

    But I'd agree with you as regards the bureaucracy and the teaching council, and I believe there are a good few teachers qualified in other countries who have something to contribute.


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    #423
    scoopmine
    Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭scoopmine


    Did anyone see Colm O'Rourkes article in the Independent at the weekend he seems to have changed his tune...


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    #424
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    scoopmine wrote: »
    Did anyone see Colm O'Rourkes article in the Independent at the weekend he seems to have changed his tune...

    Is there a link?


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    #425
    scoopmine
    Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭scoopmine


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Is there a link?

    Have to subscribe to the indo...!


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    #426
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    scoopmine wrote: »
    Have to subscribe to the indo...!

    Ahhhh.... No Ted.


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    #427
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/where-have-all-our-young-teachers-gone-36666467.html

    Colm O'Rourke's attitude has been part of the problem all along. Too late now, he may take his share of the blame for driving the anti teacher sentiment in the media. I wouldn't work in his school even for a pay rise!


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    #428
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    The internet doesn't forget.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-orourke/colm-orourke-teachers-the-party-is-over-take-the-hit-26648643.html


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    #429
    PowerToWait
    Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭PowerToWait


    I can't see that without signing in and I refuse to do that. O'Rourke is all that is wrong with Meath. Can you post what drivel he spews please?


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    #430
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    PowerToWait wrote: »
    Can you post what drivel he spews please?

    To give you a taster, these are the two headlines

    April 2010
    Colm O'Rourke: Teachers, the party is over. Take the hit
    Teachers' unions should be applauding those who negotiated the Croke Park deal, writes Colm O'Rourke

    March 2018
    Where have all our young teachers gone?
    We have allowed hedge funds to make billions but we can't afford to staff our schools properly, writes Colm O'Rourke


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    #431
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭ethical


    O'Rourke,is an idiot that fell for the "huge gains to be made from property" in the Celtic Tiger era and is "working for the bank" now as his property development investment went belly up....anyone remember Brolly having a go at him on The Sunday Game a few years ago when O'Rourke made a comment about the Galway Races and the bold Brolly asked him "did the Revenue know you were there and the state you are in?


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    #432
    SuperRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 698 ✭✭✭SuperRabbit


    I'm fluent in Spanish, have 10 years experience as a language teacher, and I'm not allowed teach Spanish in public schools.

    Maybe they should be allowed hire me on a trial basis, if they're so short? Just sayin'. If I'm ****, I'm ****, but I bet there are plenty of people who could do the job if they ran it like a business and allowed anyone qualified to apply.

    Nah they don't need Spanish teachers, but someone said they are short on German teachers and I know so many people in the same boat as me. They're more than qualified, and you have to look for people LESS qualified and experienced because they have the necessary paperwork! Our German teacher used to just get us to read stories and write translations above each new word. German was so agonisingly boring I used to almost cry going in - so don't tell me people learn FECK ALL in a Hdip, which I wouldn't be allowed do without a masters anyway, in which you also learn feck all if you're already fluent.


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    #433
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    SuperRabbit wrote: »
    I'm fluent in Spanish, have 10 years experience as a language teacher, and I'm not allowed teach Spanish in public schools.

    Maybe they should be allowed hire me on a trial basis, if they're so short? Just sayin'

    Nah they don't need Spanish teachers, but someone said they are short on German teachers and I know so many people in the same boat as me. They're more than qualified, and you have to look for people LESS qualified and experienced because they have the necessary paperwork! Our German teacher used to just get us to read stories and write translations above each new word. German was so agonisingly boring I used to almost cry going in - so don't tell me people learn FECK ALL in a Hdip, which I wouldn't be allowed do without a masters anyway, in which you also learn feck all if you're already fluent.

    Are you a qualified secondary school teacher? If not, then no you aren't and shouldn't be teaching in secondary schools. It's that simple.


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    #434
    SuperRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 698 ✭✭✭SuperRabbit


    janes1234 wrote: »
    Are you a qualified secondary school teacher? If not, then no you aren't and shouldn't be teaching in secondary schools. It's that simple.


    That was the point I am trying to make. If I get complaints in my job I get fired, in secondary school the teachers are expected to be boring and the students are expected to learn one year's worth of German in 6 years (or 2 years worth, for honours). But I'd have to get a piece of paper to prove I did 2 courses where I learned nothing in order to work with you guys. Maybe that's a mistake, maybe everyone qualified should have a chance, that's all I'm saying.


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    #435
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    SuperRabbit wrote: »
    That was the point I am trying to make. If I get complaints in my job I get fired, in secondary school the teachers are expected to be boring and the students are expected to learn one year's worth of German in 6 years (or 2 years worth, for honours). But I'd have to get a piece of paper to prove I did 2 courses where I learned nothing in order to work with you guys. Maybe that's a mistake, maybe everyone qualified should have a chance, that's all I'm saying.

    You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

    You don’t need a masters to do the dip. The dip isn’t there to teach you more German, Spanish or any other subject, it’s to teach you how to teach. It’s a teaching qualification.

    Teachers are not expected to be boring, they are expected to have a degree in their subject and a teaching qualification. They are expected to teach that subject, that’s their job.

    If you don’t think you’d learn anything from a a degree or a PME in teaching then you are probably better off not in a classroom


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    #436
    alroley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭alroley


    SuperRabbit wrote: »
    I'm fluent in Spanish, have 10 years experience as a language teacher, and I'm not allowed teach Spanish in public schools.

    Maybe they should be allowed hire me on a trial basis, if they're so short? Just sayin'. If I'm ****, I'm ****, but I bet there are plenty of people who could do the job if they ran it like a business and allowed anyone qualified to apply.

    Nah they don't need Spanish teachers, but someone said they are short on German teachers and I know so many people in the same boat as me. They're more than qualified, and you have to look for people LESS qualified and experienced because they have the necessary paperwork! Our German teacher used to just get us to read stories and write translations above each new word. German was so agonisingly boring I used to almost cry going in - so don't tell me people learn FECK ALL in a Hdip, which I wouldn't be allowed do without a masters anyway, in which you also learn feck all if you're already fluent.

    I'm at the end of the PME now - we don't do much subject content at all. That's what the undergrad was for. The vast majority of modules we do are educational modules. I have learned so much in these past two years.

    I had years of work experience in my subject area, but I absolutely needed to complete the PME to acquire the necessary knowledge to become a secondary school teacher.


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    #437
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    Guys I completely agree. Thank you all for backing me up on this. Teaching is a PROFESSION and people need to realise this. You can't teach Spanish just because you speak it. In fact, up to 90 per cent of my job is methodology and how I approach and plan my classes. Ive ten years experience and I am still constantly revising and creating new resources depend on my group. People who happen to speak a language seem to think they know how to teach. You need a qualification for a reason.


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    #438
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    alroley wrote: »
    SuperRabbit wrote: »
    I'm fluent in Spanish, have 10 years experience as a language teacher, and I'm not allowed teach Spanish in public schools.

    Maybe they should be allowed hire me on a trial basis, if they're so short? Just sayin'. If I'm ****, I'm ****, but I bet there are plenty of people who could do the job if they ran it like a business and allowed anyone qualified to apply.

    Nah they don't need Spanish teachers, but someone said they are short on German teachers and I know so many people in the same boat as me. They're more than qualified, and you have to look for people LESS qualified and experienced because they have the necessary paperwork! Our German teacher used to just get us to read stories and write translations above each new word. German was so agonisingly boring I used to almost cry going in - so don't tell me people learn FECK ALL in a Hdip, which I wouldn't be allowed do without a masters anyway, in which you also learn feck all if you're already fluent.

    I'm at the end of the PME now - we don't do much subject content at all. That's what the undergrad was for. The vast majority of modules we do are educational modules. I have learned so much in these past two years.

    I had years of work experience in my subject area, but I absolutely needed to complete the PME to acquire the necessary knowledge to become a secondary school teacher.

    I agree with your point overall regarding the need for knowledge about education but some of the things taught on the PDE/PME are utter rubbish; learning styles, multiple intelligences, group work, subject methodologies are rubbish by and large. I also shudder to think the scutter they are saying about ICT in them nowadays.

    A few decent education books (those not recommended by colleges) and deliberate practice along with patience will help toward making someone a good teacher. I have to admit some people will never make it as a teacher regardless of guidance.


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    #439
    alroley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭alroley


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    I agree with your point overall regarding the need for knowledge about education but some of the things thought on the PDE/PME are utter rubbish; learning styles, multiple intelligences, group work, subject methodologies are rubbish by and large. I also shudder to think the scutter they are saying about ICT in them nowadays.

    A few decent education books (those not recommended by colleges) and deliberate practice along with patience will help toward making someone a good teacher. I have to admit some people will never make it as a teacher regardless of guidance.

    We were taught that learning styles were a load of crap anyway.


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    #440
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    alroley wrote: »
    We were taught that learning styles were a load of crap anyway.

    What? Learning styles are an integral part of teaching and learning


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    #441
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    janes1234 wrote: »
    alroley wrote: »
    We were taught that learning styles were a load of crap anyway.

    What? Learning styles are an integral part of teaching and learning

    They are an integral part of teaching in the same way astrology is an integral part of understanding life.

    They are tripe.

    The overwhelming consensus among scholars is that no scientific evidence backs this “matching” hypothesis of learning styles (Kirschner 2017, Pashler 2008, Simmonds 2014). While all learners can develop subjective preferences for studying or digesting material, studies deny that students learn better through a self-reported learning style. Instead, scholars increasingly call for educators to replace ‘neuromyths’ with resources and strategies rooted in evidence from cognitive and adult learning theory.


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    #442
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    They are an integral part of teaching in the same way astrology is an integral part of understanding life.

    They are tripe.

    The overwhelming consensus among scholars is that no scientific evidence backs this “matching” hypothesis of learning styles (Kirschner 2017, Pashler 2008, Simmonds 2014). While all learners can develop subjective preferences for studying or digesting material, studies deny that students learn better through a self-reported learning style. Instead, scholars increasingly call for educators to replace ‘neuromyths’ with resources and strategies rooted in evidence from cognitive and adult learning theory.

    Are u somebody who didn't get into the pme/hdip?

    Each and every person in the world has a different way if learning this is so blatant. Not everyone learns in the same way.

    FACT


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    #443
    PowerToWait
    Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭PowerToWait


    janes1234 wrote: »
    Are u somebody who didn't get into the pme/hdip?

    Each and every person in the world has a different way if learning this is so blatant. Not everyone learns in the same way.

    FACT

    With respect, the poster you quoted seems eminently better suited to educating than you, just purely on posting style and what I personally learned from your respective posts.

    Also, adding 'FACT' as an addendum to a statement of opinion does not actually make the opinion a fact.


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    #444
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    PowerToWait wrote: »
    With respect, the poster you quoted seems eminently better suited to educating than you, just purely on posting style and what I personally learned from your respective posts.

    Also, adding 'FACT' as an addendum to a statement of opinion does not actually make the opinion a fact.

    Of course it does not make it fact. I couldn't care less if you learned more from them than me tbh. I'm on this forum to say that you need a teaching qualification to teach. That is the reality for a reason. I think if you read mist posts on this forum there is a general agreement.


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    #445
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    janes1234 wrote: »
    Of course it does not make it fact. I couldn't care less if you learned more from them than me tbh. I'm on this forum to say that you need a teaching qualification to teach. That is the reality for a reason. I think if you read mist posts on this forum there is a


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    #446
    SuperRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 698 ✭✭✭SuperRabbit


    alroley wrote: »
    I'm at the end of the PME now - we don't do much subject content at all. That's what the undergrad was for. The vast majority of modules we do are educational modules. I have learned so much in these past two years.

    I had years of work experience in my subject area, but I absolutely needed to complete the PME to acquire the necessary knowledge to become a secondary school teacher.

    I'm sure you learned a lot in two years, you haven't been teaching for the last 10! Don't you think that should count for something?
    I realize now I had loads and loads of teachers, the majority in fact, who did not know how to teach. Obviously they were all supposedly "qualified". We had a history teacher who picked the book up and wrote on the board for 80 minute periods and had students copy what he wrote. The only thing he ever said to them was "can I rub this out?". I'm supposed to respect someone with the same qualifications as him just because of said qualifications? No. You should have to prove you can teach.

    I am only trolling, obviously I'd need that course to know how to give a mark on a Jr. cert mock and to learn exactly what is required of them to be ready for the exam and 100 other regulations that have little to do with teaching or learning but are important nonetheless. I'd be letting the students down if wasn't properly familiar with the system.

    And my two cents on the other debate: Learning styles are NONSENSE. FACT. There is so much empirical evidence proving this. But it doesn't really matter that they are nonsense, because pretending they are real makes classes more varied and interesting. "A change is as good as a rest", after all. I did a course on teaching people with dyslexia and they specifically mentioned how helpful it is to have opportunities to listen, see, and do in every class. For subjects where the "do" is harder, it can be as simple as having the class work together to explain to someone who was absent what they missed. When I was studying the psychology of memory we had 2 minute breaks every 10 minutes to explain to each other what we'd just heard, because explaining is a great way to digest and remember.
    No matter what you are teaching if you try to incorporate the three styles your students will be more awake, all your students, because they are all "visual, kinetic and auditory" in equal measure.


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    #447
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    janes1234 wrote: »
    Are u somebody who didn't get into the pme/hdip?

    Each and every person in the world has a different way if learning this is so blatant. Not everyone learns in the same way.

    FACT

    While I like your posts and like your spirit as you're obviously a young teacher and feck it we need a bit more attitude and a bit less meekness among the younger members of our profession, I wouldn't appreciate your attitude in the above post. Maybe you completely believe in the philosophy of learning styles but the real fact is that a large body of research indicates that learning styles are a myth, however we might all feel that we learn better in different ways.

    Why not have a read of this: https://qz.com/585143/the-concept-of-different-learning-styles-is-one-of-the-greatest-neuroscience-myths/


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    #448
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    acequion wrote: »
    While I like your posts and like your spirit as you're obviously a young teacher and feck it we need a bit more attitude and a bit less meekness among the younger members of our profession, I wouldn't appreciate your attitude in the above post. Maybe you completely believe in the philosophy of learning styles but the real fact is that a large body of research indicates that learning styles are a myth, however we might all feel that we learn better in different ways.

    Why not have a read of this: https://qz.com/585143/the-concept-of-different-learning-styles-is-one-of-the-greatest-neuroscience-myths/

    With all due respect I have 10 years experience and am Head of my department. This thread is full of animosity it's such a shame. OK.. We're all the same nobody learns in different ways. I'm deleting this app as I fear the way teaching and this forum have gone and it is very very frightening. Some very strange and uninspiring teachers out there. But still some good ones!! I know for sure that a lot of you will agree.


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    #449
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    janes1234 wrote: »
    With all due respect I have 10 years experience and am Head of my department. This thread is full of animosity it's such a shame. OK.. We're all the same nobody learns in different ways. I'm deleting this app as I fear the way teaching and this forum have gone and it is very very frightening. Some very strange and uninspiring teachers out there. But still some good ones!! I know for sure that a lot of you will agree.

    Ten years in the job isn't an eternity and doing the sums it still makes you a young teacher. Which is great. But for your own good you'd want to toughen up to criticism.

    Delete your app by all means. But from where I'm standing that sounds like a tantrum. Sorry,but that is how it seems.

    If you don't like the way teaching is going my advice is to get involved in your union. Reviled as the unions are nowadadays, it really is the only recourse and the only way we have of making things better.

    And don't be so hard on your fellow teachers, whether on this forum or elsewhere. Diversity of opinion is not a bad thing you know!


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    #450
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    janes1234 wrote: »
    I'm deleting this app as I fear the way teaching and this forum have gone and it is very very frightening.

    Not meaning to have a dig but it's precisely that "head in the sand" approach from the Dept. that has the profession in the dire straits it's in.


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    #451
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    janes1234 wrote: »
    acequion wrote: »
    While I like your posts and like your spirit as you're obviously a young teacher and feck it we need a bit more attitude and a bit less meekness among the younger members of our profession, I wouldn't appreciate your attitude in the above post. Maybe you completely believe in the philosophy of learning styles but the real fact is that a large body of research indicates that learning styles are a myth, however we might all feel that we learn better in different ways.

    Why not have a read of this: https://qz.com/585143/the-concept-of-different-learning-styles-is-one-of-the-greatest-neuroscience-myths/

    With all due respect I have 10 years experience and am Head of my department. This thread is full of animosity it's such a shame. OK.. We're all the same nobody learns in different ways. I'm deleting this app as I fear the way teaching and this forum have gone and it is very very frightening. Some very strange and uninspiring teachers out there. But still some good ones!! I know for sure that a lot of you will agree.

    What you said is the equivalent of a doctor still using leaches with regard learning styles and you have the temerity to attack others. You were called on it rightly and then you pontificate further. Humility is a vital quality for any teacher.


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