Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

SligoBrewer

TL17 wrote: »

Withdrawal of qualification allowances for post 2012 teachers (loss of €4,918 per year with an honours degree

And in what pay agreement did they agree to this?

Btw, there was plenty of cuts before that.

rainbowtrout

happywithlife wrote: »

Well you can reassure him/her on that point. A quick goggle search confirmed 5 yr programme started in Sept 2015 so if my maths are right the last cohert of the 4yr BEd programme graduate this Sept but Sept 19 will see the shortfall ?

I'm sure that's it, I didn't ask, it wasn't the main thrust to our conversation at the time.

Noveight

If, I daresay when, they remove the two year PME in favour of a shorter, less costly process of qualification will there be any sort of partial-refund (for lack of a better phrase) for the people who stumped up the massive cost of the course?

Possibly a silly question but my knowledge of how that situation might unfold is limited.

SligoBrewer

Noveight wrote: »

If, I daresay when, they remove the two year PME in favour of a shorter, less costly process of qualification will there be any sort of partial-refund (for lack of a better phrase) for the people who stumped up the massive cost of the course?

Possibly a silly question but my knowledge of how that situation might unfold is limited.

It won't happen.

Mardy Bum

Noveight wrote: »

If, I daresay when, they remove the two year PME in favour of a shorter, less costly process of qualification will there be any sort of partial-refund (for lack of a better phrase) for the people who stumped up the massive cost of the course?

Possibly a silly question but my knowledge of how that situation might unfold is limited.

They won't go back on that.

evolving_doors

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Every company in the world has the same issue. I'm curious why the Government would be to blame when it comes to the teaching sector?

• Qualification changed to 2 years.
• Increasing workload.
• Crazy changes to the curriculum.
• Change in pension (killer for teachers on long term part time).
• Difficulties with getting recognised (see recent threads on TC bureaucracy gone mad)
• Splitting of full time posts.
• Pay Cuts.
• Rising rents.

Noveight

Mardy Bum wrote: »

They won't go back on that.

SligoBrewer wrote: »

It won't happen.

I expected as much, unfortunately.

rainbowtrout

Noveight wrote: »

If, I daresay when, they remove the two year PME in favour of a shorter, less costly process of qualification will there be any sort of partial-refund (for lack of a better phrase) for the people who stumped up the massive cost of the course?

Possibly a silly question but my knowledge of how that situation might unfold is limited.

My dog has a better chance of getting a job as a home economics teacher than recent graduates have of getting a refund in the event of the PME going to a one year course.

evolving_doors

fergus1001 wrote: »

I'd love to become a teacher I currently have a BSc so id presumably be qualified to teach certain science subjects, here is where the problem starts the teaching council refuse to tell me outright if I can actually register for subjects x and y once I finish the ME, also the course was extended to two years instead of one thereby discouraging people to apply for it

I'm currently working in the private sector and would love to jump ship, but I'm being discouraged from doing so, how many more of me is out there I wonder ?!

Loads. See recent threads.
At this stage I'd urge you to fire off an email to as many politicians as possible.
They really haven't a clue whats going on and how frustrating the TC are.
https://www.whoismytd.com/
Every political party has an education spokesperson too.

TL17

SligoBrewer wrote:

Show me the specific pay agreement where the unions hung us out to dry, because you have no idea what you're talking about other than parroting a narrative that you heard from someone else.

You obviously do know. So you know too our younger grads are bottom of pecking order when it comes to negotiations.

And for what it worth I do know. Have many years spent teachin. These days when I call a sub and get a no I smile. For now at least things look better. Schools will manage. My loyalty is to the younger generation.

evolving_doors

Noveight wrote: »

If, I daresay when, they remove the two year PME in favour of a shorter, less costly process of qualification will there be any sort of partial-refund (for lack of a better phrase) for the people who stumped up the massive cost of the course?

Possibly a silly question but my knowledge of how that situation might unfold is limited.

Maybe they'll say that, because of the shortage those who did the 2 years are in a better position than a few years prior when there were no jobs with a 1 yr course.
Likewise if they reduced it to 1 year again then there would be an increase of supply.

My solution... decrease back to 1 year postgrad diploma. Requirement to do masters within 10 years of teaching to get an allowance.

But no, they've painted everyone into a corner.
Minister says there's no shortage anyway so they're pushing it to the edge for some reason.

SligoBrewer

TL17 wrote: »

You obviously do know. So you know too our younger grads are bottom of pecking order when it comes to negotiations.

And for what it worth I do know. Have many years spent teachin. These days when I call a sub and get a no I smile. For now at least things look better. Schools will manage. My loyalty is to the younger generation.

I'm the younger generation. I'm on the lower payscale.
Just because you were a teacher doesn't mean that you didn't echo a narrative that you picked up from someone else.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104692818&postcount=66

the_syco

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

As for subbing, well, it's a requirement the world over and I can guarantee you we all did plenty of it to gain experience before getting a contract.

What's the difference in pay between then and now, and living expenses?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There are simply not enough teachers out there. Graduates are not willing to fork out 12k in college fees and whatever their living expenses are for two years in college to qualify as a teacher on top of their degree.

Having to sub for a few years until you may get a job is also putting off people.

I'm guessing people that did a specific course up to 2012 to teach has hit the end, and after 2012 they're picking courses with teaching no longer an end goal?

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

There really needs to be a drive to get more men into teaching, if humanly possible. It won't be easy.

Can't see many men entering a workforce full of young kids due to the stigma it gets them, which is very unfortunate.

PMBC

Part of the problem, at least, lies with the Department - poor planning etc. I have no connection with teaching but from stories I hear the TC are also contributing to the problem rather than the solution.
Am I being unfair?

markodaly

rainbowtrout wrote: »

. We are now in the same position, a place Irish education has never been.

Maybe its just Irish education coming down to Western norms?

Getting good teachers in places like the UK, US, Canada and even further afield in places like Oz and NZ is hard.

For whatever reason, in Ireland teaching was seen as a golden ticket, especially in harder times like the 80's. It was an easy enough number, where you put in the years, you can then earn a decent enough middle class salary, and a nice tax free one off golden handshake with a decent pension after. I am not saying this is necessarily true but that is the way it was seen. It was also one of the only ways especially for women in rural Ireland to earn anyway of a decent salary.

That Ireland is kinda gone now. Ireland is more urban and getting more so all the time. The economy is on the up so people will chose careers that are newer, more exciting and fresh. Graduates want to be at the forefront of tech, science, biochem and finance. Not stuck in ballygobackwards teaching in a prefab. Again, not mean to be insulting but it has that image.

You have other factors mentioned here as well. The dip going from 1 year to 2 years. Most teachers now will have to do at least 5 years study, if not 6 years. You would want to be serious to be a teacher to invest that amount of time into it.

The bureaucracy is another thing. Like the teaching council. There are plenty of would be teachers from the UK, Poland or elsewhere who many of them are educated to high university standards but teaching council rules, rule many of them out. This is especially true for primary, where the Irish language requirement makes this profession a nativist only profession for the most part. How many foreign born primary school teachers are employed in the country? 1, 2, none? What ever it is, its tiny. Its rules like this we have in the state that need to be modernised and changed.

Looking from the outside in, teaching seems to be a closed shop. Unless you fit a certain demographic its a difficult nut to crack. Talking from experience here. Of course if you are Irish born, learn the Irish, do a leaving cert and all that, its OK, but steam anywhere outside this process, the doors suddenly close.

Ireland never looked at its labour market like this. Immigrants would always take the low end stuff, while the natives would run the country, take the pensionable jobs in the public service. That way of thinking has to die.

There is a big world out there, where there is a demand for skilled graduates, be they in teaching, nursing, IT, engineering. It's pretty much accepted now that all our graduate nurses go abroad, they just cannot keep them, the same is happening to teaching. Our processes and rules are for a world in the 1980's but its 2018 now where labour is much more fluid and people don't think twice about going to the ME or Australia for 5 years or 10 years.

So, if our graduates are going abroad, even for a short period of time and even if we get educated migrants from elsewhere we cannot hire them or train them because our rules are not made for them.

The odd thing is though, this shortage seems to have come as a surprise as the narrative here was that teaching was going to be over subscribed for years and years to come. Yet that prophesy seems to be false.

markodaly

Oh one more thing. I am not sure the pay thing is as big as its made out to be. Sure it could be a reason but many here and of course the Unions will say that its the ONLY thing that matters, which of course they would say as they want more pay for their members.

spurious

Personally, I believe the S&S shambles is mainly to blame for the shortage. Before its introduction, teachers on part-time hours had plenty of opportunity to top up their hours to a decent salary while they waited for more contracted hours.

The apparent policy of splitting jobs into two or three doesn't help, but the S&S takes away the possibility of coping with low hours.

I happened to be in a school the other day offering some unpaid advice regarding my old subject (which the PDST do not offer any help for) and I got offered classes if I wanted them.

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

Oh one more thing. I am not sure the pay thing is as big as its made out to be. Sure it could be a reason but many here and of course the Unions will say that its the ONLY thing that matters, which of course they would say as they want more pay for their members.

I think this is a bit simplistic given the last ten years battling against the new junior cert In it's original form + battling again the part time culture + arguing for posts of responsibility + class sizes.

Not to mention FEMPI is still in place! Despite Michael noonan declaring the emergency over.

starting salary means very little if your pro rata.

evolving_doors

PMBC wrote: »

Part of the problem, at least, lies with the Department - poor planning etc. I have no connection with teaching but from stories I hear the TC are also contributing to the problem rather than the solution.
Am I being unfair?

Not unfair.
Teaching council + beaurocracy are definitely part of the problem.

mirrorwall14

Like the housing crisis this really is a multifaceted problem.

In no particular order:
1. Lack of pay (discussed at length in this forum)
2. no opportunity for progression in teaching with middle management still only partially restored after being decimated in the recession.
3. Teaching council -poor operation in terms of assessing degrees. The cost to assess a degree should automatically get it added to a list publically available with shortcomings listed. They also need to get the colleges on board with fulfilling those requirements. The current situation is a serious barrier to transfers to teaching
4. The length of the dip and the cost of the dip. Two years full time at 12k is a bridge too far. Particularly since most of it is unpaid teaching practise. A different structure is needed urgently. The colleges also need to get streamlined in teaching practise. The current situation of multiple periods of TP across the school year causes disruption for students and puts schools and teachers off having PME students.
5. The ever increasing bureaucracy of teaching and the impact that is having on the experience of current teachers. I don’t know ANY teacher who would advise someone to get into teaching. Intitiative after initiative and a mountain of acronyms. Useless in services with condescending commentary from media, minister and presenters
6. The splitting of jobs into hours. Principals have a lot to answer for here
7. The S and S scheme and it’s impact on paid cover hours to make those ‘hours’ jobs into full pay at least for the school year

There’s others but I’ve got to go!

TL17

SligoBrewer wrote:

I'm the younger generation. I'm on the lower payscale. Just because you were a teacher doesn't mean that you didn't echo a narrative that you picked up from someone else.

Teacher here too. And yes I do echo a narrative I picked up.
I picked it up from my 2 teacher children who are post 2012 qualified.they have experienced worst of cutbacks and will prob take up invitation to UAE And I hear it constantly in my own school from the many subs in and out weekly. They too tempted to emigrate and our taoiseach even encouraged it yesterda to earn deposits for a house. So why are we surprised there a shortage
They having easier time recently. Not sure for how long though

maynooth_rules

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

5. The ever increasing bureaucracy of teaching and the impact that is having on the experience of current teachers. I don’t know ANY teacher who would advise someone to get into teaching. Intitiative after initiative and a mountain of acronyms. Useless in services with condescending commentary from media, minister and presenters

I think this is such a key and overlooked issue as well. Someone only said it to me last week, asking if my little boy would become a teacher like me. TBH I dont think I could advice anyone to come near the career. Plus seeing what is coming down the line with the new JCT just makes it more unattractive IMO

deiseindublin

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Again. People are not going to sit at home waiting for a call . I would think people who become teachers want full time employment, not to be some type of stand by teacher. Isn't it the principles responsibility to coordinate this.

I don't know why people here are blaming the Government.

If you have FTE roles then recruitment is needed to fill the roles.

If you have activities to cover them the Principle should coordinate cover

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You've clearly never worked in a school.

Agree rainbowtrout, anybody working in a school knows how to spell Principal!

deiseindublin

Shaungoater wrote: »

Our school in exactly the same way, can't even get an English teacher for 22 hours which was unheard of a year or so ago. Our deputy is taking four classes at a time in the main hall

Family friend is on their 10th English teacher. Every time a new one arrives (for a few weeks) the kids have been told to make more changes to their portfolios. They are in 3rd year and haven't started the play yet, they have read half of one novel.

SligoBrewer

TL17 wrote: »

Teacher here too. And yes I do echo a narrative I picked up.
I picked it up from my 2 teacher children who are post 2012 qualified.they have experienced worst of cutbacks and will prob take up invitation to UAE And I hear it constantly in my own school from the many subs in and out weekly. They too tempted to emigrate and our taoiseach even encouraged it yesterda to earn deposits for a house. So why are we surprised there a shortage
They having easier time recently. Not sure for how long though

You still haven't told me about the unions.
How did they throw me under the bus?

solerina

The two year PME seems to be a total shambles, we had a lad here before CHristmas doing 10 weeks TP, he had to cover three classes per week and said the majority of the rest of the time he was just hanging around. They seem to have stretched a one year course, which already had a shortage of actual content into two years and not actually added anything in to fill up the extra year. I certainly would tell anyone I know not to do the PME if asked.

Lindy17

When I did the Post Primary PME I spent the majority of the time on teaching practice. There is a set number of hours to complete during teacher training but there is not a set block release/number of weeks that all colleges follow. In the first year I did 13 weeks teaching practice, in second year 21 weeks. The cooperating teachers I had were lovely, but said they felt like they were not the class teacher and had to sit through PT meetings with notes I had given them about student behaviour and results.
I had a friend who completed the PME in a different college who completed 18 weeks over the two years? Compared to my 34 weeks?
I don't think all colleges have the resources to facilitate having year 1 and 2 PMEs in college at the same time, so the solution is to send them out on TP. I can see how the numbers for the PME are dropping, in hindsight I did pay 12k to get experience working for free for 34 wks while also doing a masters thesis, getting involved in extra curriculars etc.

2011abc

Maybe I’m just getting cratchety in my old age but it’s annoying the number of references to the difficulty in finding ‘good’ teachers lately including Matt Cooper and this thread .Who are all these ‘bad’ teachers ?The old ones , young ones , local ones , returned emigrants etc ?Divide And conquer ...

evolving_doors

Floggings will continue until morale improves.

amacca

the_syco wrote: »

Can't see many men entering a workforce full of young kids due to the stigma it gets them, which is very unfortunate.

Not wishing to derail a thread...but I'm not liking the implication of the above!

Exactly what stigma are we talking about? and if its what I think it is I'd be fairly sure it wouldn't be a widely held view