Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

I think this is a bit simplistic given the last ten years battling against the new junior cert In it's original form + battling again the part time culture + arguing for posts of responsibility + class sizes.

Not to mention FEMPI is still in place! Despite Michael noonan declaring the emergency over.

starting salary means very little if your pro rata.

Some of these are fair points but Unions and indeed the older set teachers are very much to blame as the government here in many of the issue.

Like, the Irish teacher Unions are not exactly the paragons of reform or forward thinking are they?

The Junior cert reform on the face of it seems a decent idea, again I understand that the executing may not be all that but I think many teachers pick the wrong battle and focus on saying no to everything the Dept. of Education has to say or try.

Much of the curriculum in Ireland is out of date, things like Irish and Religion should be at best be got rid of up to secondary level, at worst curtailed and cut down. Yet there is a vested interest for many to keep teaching this stuff.

Irish education is very good in many aspect. It gives good basics in numeracy, reading and english. It also creates a generally relaxed environment for learning where children can pick up social skills. However, there is also a lot to be desired about it. The system seems to be straight jacketed by decades of inertia from both government and teachers.

This may not seem fair and make hard reading for some long in the tooth teachers here but as I say, I have had experience first hand with some of these issues and that is my take on it.

SligoBrewer

You've literally no idea what teachers were striking about with regards to the new Junior Cycle, have you?

rainbowtrout

markodaly wrote: »

The Junior cert reform on the face of it seems a decent idea, again I understand that the executing may not be all that but I think many teachers pick the wrong battle and focus on saying no to everything the Dept. of Education has to say or try.

It's change for change's sake. Huge chunks of courses have been cut out. Not stuff that you would deem outdated either. Students to be graded by their teachers with no external moderation, for the school based assessment. Nobody essentially fails, there is a wishy washy 'not yet achieved grade'. Everyone's a winner.

If you read the threads on here about the inservices we have been to for the new junior cert, you'll find that we are given very little information about course content but the place is awash with buzzwords, rather than just allow people at the inservice speak and contribute their ideas in that manner, they have us writing our idea on a post it, they stick all the post its in a line along the wall, and then we are all supposed to file past, read each one and be inspired by what we read. It's a load of bollocks.

markodaly

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You've literally no idea what teachers were striking about with regards to the new Junior Cycle, have you?

Markings being done in house rather than an external examiner is the main reason from what I hear on the ground.

Again, this the problem right here. The them (everyone who is not a teacher) vs us (a teacher). I give my point of view and its a fight straight away.

markodaly

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If you read the threads on here about the inservices we have been to for the new junior cert, you'll find that we are given very little information about course content but the place is awash with buzzwords, rather than just allow people at the inservice speak and contribute their ideas in that manner, they have us writing our idea on a post it, they stick all the post its in a line along the wall, and then we are all supposed to file past, read each one and be inspired by what we read. It's a load of bollocks.

You mean middle management in the Dept. of Education is full of $hite? Welcome to just about any job in the corporate world. Teachers are not immune to this type of stuff nor are they deliberately targeted.

r93kaey5p2izun

markodaly wrote: »

You mean middle management in the Dept. of Education is full of $hite? Welcome to just about any job in the corporate world. Teachers are not immune to this type of stuff nor are they deliberately targeted.

What is your point? What has it to do with the shortage of teachers and how schools are coping?

Your posts show you have a poor understanding of the issues. And you are derailing a thread to criticise teachers and make irrelevant posts to minimise issues facing teachers in schools with whataboutery. You are patronising and dismissive. Behaviour like yours is widespread in Ireland, fuelled by rags like the Indo, and it is another factor that has led to this this crisis in teacher recruitment and retention.

SligoBrewer

markodaly wrote: »

Markings being done in house rather than an external examiner is the main reason from what I hear on the ground.

Again, this the problem right here. The them (everyone who is not a teacher) vs us (a teacher). I give my point of view and its a fight straight away.

So then why talk bull about reform, Irish and Religion?
Teachers were striking on one issue, assessment.

Next time to find out what is going on on the ground, get your ducks in a row before you flag the flag up the flagpole, and do your googling before you post inane garbage that has nothing to do with teacher shortages.

You can piss on the leg of the public and tell them it's raining, but don't spout complete brown about inertia when all teachers opposed was correcting their own students work out of fairness.

markodaly

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

What is your point? What has it to do with the shortage of teachers and how schools are coping?

You brought your own modern corporate anecdote into it. Not me.

Your posts show you have a poor understanding of the issues. And you are derailing a thread to criticise teachers and make irrelevant posts to minimise issues facing teachers in schools with whataboutery. You are patronising and dismissive. Behaviour like yours is widespread in Ireland, fuelled by rags like the Indo, and it is another factor that has led to this this crisis in teacher recruitment and retention.

Again, a perfect illustration of why we are where we are. Perhaps the advice from me is to not take it so personally, if someone has a different opinion than you. You could learn a lot from this. If you want to wholesale blame the government for this and all issues, you are welcome to do so. However, this is an internet forum where alternative opinions will be aired and heard.

rainbowtrout

markodaly wrote: »

Maybe its just Irish education coming down to Western norms?

Getting good teachers in places like the UK, US, Canada and even further afield in places like Oz and NZ is hard.

Why should we lower our standards? Our education system was always well regarded and our students always considered educated to a high standard. We are importing some of the worst educational practices (in my opinion) not the best.

markodaly wrote: »

For whatever reason, in Ireland teaching was seen as a golden ticket, especially in harder times like the 80's. It was an easy enough number, where you put in the years, you can then earn a decent enough middle class salary, and a nice tax free one off golden handshake with a decent pension after. I am not saying this is necessarily true but that is the way it was seen. It was also one of the only ways especially for women in rural Ireland to earn anyway of a decent salary.

That Ireland is kinda gone now. Ireland is more urban and getting more so all the time. The economy is on the up so people will chose careers that are newer, more exciting and fresh. Graduates want to be at the forefront of tech, science, biochem and finance. Not stuck in ballygobackwards teaching in a prefab. Again, not mean to be insulting but it has that image.

I don't think that's at all accurate. Teaching was a job in the 70s and 80s that yes, offered a secure salary, but you could only become a teacher with a third level education. And that wasn't available to everyone. Free third level education came in in 1996 and becoming a teacher was open to students who were able, but for whom it was inaccessible previously. It's now normal to attend third level education and with that brings a host of opportunities in sectors that weren't largely accessible and particularly in tech/science didn't exist.

Travel costs have plummeted in the last 20 years making travel abroad more attainable. A foreign holiday in the 80s was only a fantasy for most people, it's the norm now for many, as is taking a year out to go back packing etc. If school leavers emigrated in the 80s, they were getting the boat to the UK to work, not flying out to Dubai to take up lucrative tax free employment in a range of professions.

During the boom ten years ago, when there seemed to be no end of money, there were no shortage of graduates looking to be teachers. Do a search on here for threads about applying for the dip. Many posters commented that they were doing a masters to give them extra points on the application so they might get in. It was still a very much sought after job, despite the opportunities in new industries such as tech. Even now I see a sizeable cohort doing work experience in primary schools each year, and also quite a number of students from my school go into teacher training courses in college each year, both primary and secondary. It's a versatile qualification: you can get a job (in theory) anywhere in the country, and you can take that qualification abroad and work if you choose.

Not everyone wants to work in Dublin and pay astronomical rent/mortgage or work in tech/science etc. Some really don't care about that stuff at all.

markodaly wrote: »

You have other factors mentioned here as well. The dip going from 1 year to 2 years. Most teachers now will have to do at least 5 years study, if not 6 years. You would want to be serious to be a teacher to invest that amount of time into it.

I don't think the two years is the problem (while I think it should still be one year), it's simply the cost. 12k fees plus living expenses for two years is a hefty chunk of money, and in the last few years, I would say generally from about 2008-2016 it was nigh on impossible to get a decent teaching job, so that has a knock on effect.

In the early 2000s a post graduate conversion course, 18 months long, was introduced for graduates who wished to become primary teachers. I know many people who did that course. It's not much different from doing a 2 year course to train as a secondary teacher, and it didn't cost 12k. If a course exists with reasonable fees, and a reasonable chance of getting a job on graduation then there will be no shortage of applicants. Actually when Hibernia started offering the same course, it was considered controversial due to the distance learning style of Hibernia versus the traditional teacher training colleges. Still there was no shortage of applicants with these extra places and there were many people on here saying their best chance of getting the post grad was Hibernia as there was so much competition for the courses in Mary I etc.

markodaly wrote: »

The bureaucracy is another thing. Like the teaching council. There are plenty of would be teachers from the UK, Poland or elsewhere who many of them are educated to high university standards but teaching council rules, rule many of them out. This is especially true for primary, where the Irish language requirement makes this profession a nativist only profession for the most part. How many foreign born primary school teachers are employed in the country? 1, 2, none? What ever it is, its tiny. Its rules like this we have in the state that need to be modernised and changed.

The TC is a load of bollocks and has been since day one. I don't think anyone would disagree with you there.

However while Irish is an official language of this country and has equal status to English, it will be taught in primary schools and therefore a primary school teacher will need to be able to teach it. It is one of the quirks of being an English speaking country with a native language that is only spoken by a minority.

I'd be curious to know how this is dealt with in Wales where Welsh is compulsory up to the age of 15 or 16, so I wonder do primary school teachers in Wales have to have a Welsh language qualification or do they have dedicated Welsh teachers.


*Curiosity got the better of me, so I googled it

Language requirements
There are both English and Welsh-speaking schools in Wales. In a Welsh-speaking school, the ability to teach through the medium of Welsh will normally be necessary.
Applicants do not have to be a Welsh speaker to undertake ITT in Wales (unless undertaking a Welsh-medium course). Welsh is a core curriculum subject and is compulsory for all students up to the age of 16. Should you wish to teach in a primary school, you will be required to learn and teach basic Welsh and will be encouraged to learn Welsh on the primary PGCE course.

A solution to this problem would be to have dedicated Irish language teachers in primary schools, who would take different year groups for Irish and then you could have non Irish speakers teach the other subjects. However we have a shortage of people in secondary at the moment who are qualifying to teach Irish so I can't imagine there would be enough to teach it at primary on top of that. I suppose you could have primary teachers with the Irish qualification specialise in this area and use non Irish speakers to teach the other subjects.

Given that primary school teaching has largely been well if not over subscribed over the years there has never been an impetus for the government to change this sector.


On the whole I wouldn't have any issue with this way of teaching, but at the same time I wouldn't denigrate our education system for wishing to provide students with an education in our native language and having that as a requirement to teach at primary level.

If I went to Poland with a primary school teaching qualification I would be expected to teach Polish and would be excluded from working there in that sector if I didn't have the language, which lets face it, most Irish teachers wouldn't have. Why should we undermine our own language because foreign teachers don't speak it?

Irish teachers that emigrate are largely teaching in English speaking education systems (UK, Oz, NZ). A second language is not necessary, we've just got lucky. Those that work in the middle east also teach through the medium of English, but students in those schools go to (presumably) native teachers for their Arabic lessons every day. That's the only reason teachers from Ireland can work in places like Dubai.

markodaly wrote: »

Looking from the outside in, teaching seems to be a closed shop. Unless you fit a certain demographic its a difficult nut to crack. Talking from experience here. Of course if you are Irish born, learn the Irish, do a leaving cert and all that, its OK, but steam anywhere outside this process, the doors suddenly close.

It's not a closed shop. Certainly at primary school there is no way around the language requirement so very few foreign teachers will have the will to learn Irish to work in a primary school.

The other side of that argument: in all the years i've been posting here, I've seen many posts asking about teaching in the UK/Middle East, but I've yet to see a post that says 'how do I go about getting a primary school teaching job in Germany/France/Italy?' It would be a requirement to teach through the native language and as our graduates would not have that requirement they are excluded from those jobs. Is that any different from the foreign teachers who can't teach in Irish primary schools?


Irish isn't a requirement to teach in a second level school, unless you are teaching Irish or teaching through the medium of Irish, and there aren't many of those schools around. So there is no barrier to entry there, except for the nightmare of the TC, which is a pain to deal with whether you are Irish or not.

markodaly wrote: »

Ireland never looked at its labour market like this. Immigrants would always take the low end stuff, while the natives would run the country, take the pensionable jobs in the public service. That way of thinking has to die.

Bullshit. Ireland didn't have any sort of a sizeable immigrant population until about 12 - 15 years ago. Foreign students in schools were practically non existant. A couple of English kids here and there, the odd European student (Western Europe generally), but that was about it. So this notion that the immigrants would always take the low end stuff is bull, as we haven't even had a full generation of mass immigration into Ireland yet. In the mid 2000s when immigration to the country boomed, lots of schools were suddenly faced with a high proportion of children who did not speak English and didn't have the resources or structures to cope with it. Some towns would have felt that effect more than others.

Take somewhere like Gort where at one point, one quarter of the town's population was Brazilian, and you have one secondary school in the town, then you have a sizeable number of students who don't have English as their first language needing extra tuition. That was replicated all over the country.

You can't possibly say that the natives would run the country and public service jobs kept for them, when children that moved here 15 years ago are only coming through the education system now. Integration takes time, and as with immigration in many places it take time, often more than one generation to establish roots and for children of those emmigrants to thrive in society and often I would say from what I see in school, it's because those kids are coming from homes where no English is spoken and the only English they get is in school. It takes time for them to learn the language and to be able to compete with native speakers, and therefore succeed in education and in the workplace.

markodaly wrote: »

There is a big world out there, where there is a demand for skilled graduates, be they in teaching, nursing, IT, engineering. It's pretty much accepted now that all our graduate nurses go abroad, they just cannot keep them, the same is happening to teaching. Our processes and rules are for a world in the 1980's but its 2018 now where labour is much more fluid and people don't think twice about going to the ME or Australia for 5 years or 10 years.

So, if our graduates are going abroad, even for a short period of time and even if we get educated migrants from elsewhere we cannot hire them or train them because our rules are not made for them.

The odd thing is though, this shortage seems to have come as a surprise as the narrative here was that teaching was going to be over subscribed for years and years to come. Yet that prophesy seems to be false.

Public services jobs have come under huge media scrutiny for the last 10-15 years. Teachers have been savaged by the national media countless times. We are being swamped in unnecessary paperwork. Full time jobs have been carved up into part time jobs. Teaching as a profession has been devalued. There have been paycuts. Nursing has also experienced paycuts, and problems in hospitals have been well documented in the national media. There was a freeze in hiring in the public sector at the start of the recession. If any government had the balls to do away with the culture of making teaching a part time profession, do away with onerous and pointless paperwork and let teachers get on with actual teaching, reduced the pupil teacher ratio, if they restored pay scales for new graduates, didn't not have astronomical costs associated with completing a teaching qualification, if they opened more hospital beds and had junior doctors work humane hours and just make all the unnecessary pen pushers redundant and hired more doctors and nurses, then graduates would be more willing to stick around and seek employment here.

In Finland, that oft lauded educational paradise, has a pupil teacher ratio in secondary schools of 11:1, ours is 19:1. It is a requirement for a teacher to have a masters, only the best graduates are accepted into teacher training programmes. Teaching is seen as a prestigious job in Finland and not undermined constantly. We don't have that public support here.

byhookorbycrook

markodaly wrote: »

You mean middle management in the Dept. of Education is full of $hite? Welcome to just about any job in the corporate world. Teachers are not immune to this type of stuff nor are they deliberately targeted.

Ok, here's one for you.Strict new child protection protocols to be in place in all schools by mid March. We got no training in how to put it in place, none. We were emailed some documentation saying it had to be done, yet no-one is actually going to tell us WHAT has to be done.The policy will have legal ramifications for schools if not done correctly, but we haven't been told what the correct type of policy will include. And to top it all, if our new policy is somehow lacking , we will be hauled over the coals by a new type of inspection regime, which will publish results online. I can't see that happening in any other job.

Staffing schedule for next year hasn't been released by the DES,so schools can't even plan how many teachers they will need. Ditto SNA allocations. Primary schools have worked exceptionally hard to raise literacy and numeracy attainments, yet our improved results will mean that we lose special ed. teachers , despite the fact that more and more children with SEN are entering mainstream schools.

And don't get me started on school funding. What job expects you to hold cake sales, sponsored walks, pack bags in supermarkets on your weekends to raise money to pay for things like toilet paper and heating?

markodaly

SligoBrewer wrote: »

So then why talk bull about reform, Irish and Religion?
Teachers were striking on one issue, assessment.

Because this is a topic about the shortage of teachers, not a strike.

As far as I know teachers in Ireland have never advocated reform for less religion and Irish in schools. In fact its been the opposite.

Why is this important? Well because its a barrier to the teaching profession for almost 20% of the people living in this state who are born abroad. (primary teaching). Teaching has always been viewed as as a pretty conservative vocation.

Put it this way. If you put in a barrier that automatically bars almost every foreign born person and the native born are going abroad, less and less are taking Irish LC, you are left with a smaller pool who even qualify for primary teaching, never mind those who want to be teachers.

I made my points quite clear in an earlier post about this. The labour requirements for these types of jobs have not moved with the times and move they must. That means the old requirements of Irish and teaching religion should be given a hard look. This is a broader point as well about entry into the Gardai, civil service and so on. Not just teaching, I am not picking on that alone I am just making a general observation on the Irish public service and its lack of change in relation to the changing labour market.

This would be just one aspect though, there are more things that could be done as well, as I outlined in my post.

and do your googling before you post inane garbage that has nothing to do with teacher shortages.

You can piss on the leg of the public and tell them it's raining, but don't spout complete brown about inertia when all teachers opposed was correcting their own students work out of fairness.

So what exactly am I wrong about then? You are saying the entry requirements at present have nothing to do with the shortage? Well go on then, explain that thesis.

rainbowtrout

markodaly wrote: »

Markings being done in house rather than an external examiner is the main reason from what I hear on the ground.

Again, this the problem right here. The them (everyone who is not a teacher) vs us (a teacher). I give my point of view and its a fight straight away.

We have a very robust examination system run by the State Exams Commission and a pretty robust college application system run by the CAO. Now it doesn't work for everyone some students find the academic model tough, but the bottom line is if you work hard to achieve your grades which are awarded anonymously then you can get a place in college. It's not about what school you went to, where you live or who your father is. In that regard it makes education and access to college a level playing field.

When the new JC was announced with in house grading, teachers/principals were commenting on here that already schools were receiving phone calls of the nature 'you'll look after my Johnny won't you'. Already the notion of putting a word in for a child to get a better grade for no educationally sound reason was catching on with some parents. While this is only at JC level as yet, if it ever extends to LC level, it could potentially be a problem with college places at stake. I don't want to be in a system where that problem could exist when our system is a blunt instrument but ultimately fair to all students.

r93kaey5p2izun

markodaly wrote: »

You brought your own modern corporate anecdote into it. Not me.



Again, a perfect illustration of why we are where we are. Perhaps the advice from me is to not take it so personally, if someone has a different opinion than you. You could learn a lot from this. If you want to wholesale blame the government for this and all issues, you are welcome to do so. However, this is an internet forum where alternative opinions will be aired and heard.

I have brought no acecdotes other than of classes left unsupervised, and teaching and learning interrupted on a daily basis. You are welcome to air your opinion and to criticise teachers all you want, but itsis not relevant on this thread, beyond illustrating a significant cause of the problem of teacher shortages. I haven't blamed the government at all - it's simply not the point of this thread to apportion blame. Again, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Surely you can see how incredibly patronising your comments are? You are derailing the thread. You are talking to teachers like they have no experience outside the classroom - perhaps you don't realise just how many of us have had other careers before we came to education? You have nothing to say about how schools are managing the shortage day to day. What can I learn about coping with the teacher shortage from your posts?

I am sharing my experience with you that the constant criticism and denigration of teachers and teaching has a negative effect on teacher recruitment and retention. It's certainly a factor in why I'm leaving. And as someone who retrained in teaching and worked in the private sector and self employed before this, I am telling you that your determination to stick your oar in off topic to tell us to "get over it, teachers are no worse off than anyone else, and they're also to blame for their own problems, wait til I tell you how to do your job better" is a daily drone at this stage and something very few other workers have to put up with.

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

Some of these are fair points but Unions and indeed the older set teachers are very much to blame as the government here in many of the issue.

So how have unions caused the shortage of teacher supply?

markodaly wrote: »

Like, the Irish teacher Unions are not exactly the paragons of reform or forward thinking are they?

I dunno are they?
Again.... how is this connected to teacher shortage?

markodaly wrote: »

The Junior cert reform on the face of it seems a decent idea, again I understand that the executing may not be all that but I think many teachers pick the wrong battle and focus on saying no to everything the Dept. of Education has to say or try.

Again, what has this 'on the face of it' got to do with increasing teacher supply?

markodaly wrote: »

Much of the curriculum in Ireland is out of date, things like Irish and Religion should be at best be got rid of up to secondary level, at worst curtailed and cut down. Yet there is a vested interest for many to keep teaching this stuff.

Teacher shortage solution?

markodaly wrote: »

Irish education is very good in many aspect. It gives good basics in numeracy, reading and english. It also creates a generally relaxed environment for learning where children can pick up social skills. However, there is also a lot to be desired about it. The system seems to be straight jacketed by decades of inertia from both government and teachers.

Teacher shortage?

markodaly wrote: »

This may not seem fair and make hard reading for some long in the tooth teachers here but as I say, I have had experience first hand with some of these issues and that is my take on it.

That's the vaguest sentence I've ever read. Can you at least divulge your first hand anecdote?

Actually don't bother, At this stage I'm asking you as mod to either stick to the topic and stop muddying the waters with your scutter gun approach.
Or gracefully bow out.

rainbowtrout

markodaly wrote: »

As far as I know teachers in Ireland have never advocated reform for less religion and Irish in schools. In fact its been the opposite.

Sorry to break it to you, but the majority of schools in Ireland are under the patronage of religious orders. For primary schools it's in the region of 92%. As they are the patrons they are entitled to establish the ethos in the school, which for the most part in this country is Catholic. Educate Together schools are in existance and wherever they are established are over subscribed. I think if you went into a few staffrooms and asked teachers about teaching religion you would find a different story from many. Teachers do not have any say in how much religion is timetabled in a school. In my school which is an amalgamation of three schools, it is written in the deeds of the school that the Catholic ethos be preserved and that students receive 2 hours of religion every week. We have no say in this whatsoever.


You can argue all you like about the position of Irish in schools, but it is an equal language under the constitution, no government is going to touch that any time soon. It is also soul destroying for teachers of Irish who have a love of the language who have students sitting in front of them day after day who don't want to learn it and say it's a waste of time. i'm sure they would prefer not to have to deal with that on a daily basis.

markodaly wrote: »

Why is this important? Well because its a barrier to the teaching profession for almost 20% of the people living in this state who are born abroad. (primary teaching). Teaching has always been viewed as as a pretty conservative vocation.

Put it this way. If you put in a barrier that automatically bars almost every foreign born person and the native born are going abroad, less and less are taking Irish LC, you are left with a smaller pool who even qualify for primary teaching, never mind those who want to be teachers.

Any child who enters the Irish education system who is under the age of 11 is required to study Irish no matter where they come from, so for foreign born children there are considerable numbers of them coming through, doing the LC and sitting an Irish exam. Not so much the barrier that you think, if they are considering a career as a primary school teacher.

Just an anecdote, but a friend of mine taught in a primary school about 10 years ago commented that the large number of Brazilian and Eastern European children she taught took to Irish like a duck to water and some of them would only speak to her in Irish or their native language. They didn't have a hatred of Irish ingrained in them from home at an early age, it was an opportunity to learn another language, and it was also a language in which they could be on an equal footing with their classmates where English was the one where they were behind as they were competing with native speakers.

markodaly wrote: »

So what exactly am I wrong about then? You are saying the entry requirements at present have nothing to do with the shortage? Well go on then, explain that thesis.

I would say certainly the entry requirements have nothing to do with the shortage. Students in Ireland know from an early age that they have to have an Irish qualification to teach Irish. This is not something that's sprung on them in March of Leaving Cert.

A large number of barriers - mainly costs and lack of full time hours have been listed as barriers to entry. The Irish language requirement has never been one of them as it's not a requirement to be a secondary teacher.

Benicetomonty

I think the 2 year dip is a big disincentive. The 'economy picking up' excuse by Bruton (and hijacked today by Leo) is a joke. There has been nothing approaching the shortage that there is now for as long as I can remember, boom or bust. 12k, unpaid training and 2 years of your time to do a job that has been very negatively portrayed by the media for decades now is a bridge too far for graduates, whether or not they feel they have a vocation.

Id also argue that there is very little encouragement for a young person to take up teaching from the adults in their lives. The profession is now resented by the general public from what Ive seen and read; every debate on the radio contains the words June July and August, regardless of what the topic is, which is soul destroying for a teacher. What claim to be respectable radio stations and newspapers wheel out hopelessly biased commentators like Ed Walshe and Joe Humphreys/ Carl O Brien and their ilk with predictable, terrifying regularity. And listeners/ readers buy into it all. Such attitudes permeate households and will inevitably discourage potential applicants. Like most jobs, its difficult to appreciate what difficulties and stresses are involved until you try it yourself, but teaching is in an unfortunate position in this respect because everybody has been to school and those students who didnt decide to go into teaching or lecturing seem to have selectively bad recollections. There was a time where the security and conditions of the job would trump the negativity but that's no longer the case. To hear posters on this thread say that they wouldnt advise their children to become teachers is indicative of how teaching is now regarded.

Unequal pay is an issue obviously, although as welcome as equalisation would be, a teacher, the same as lots of other professions, still wont be able to afford to buy in Dublin based on their own salary, which is obviously where the crisis is at its worst. I honestly dont know if simple equalisation will really solve anything anymore.

I do find it highly ironic that principals are finding themselver under the most pressure. Aside from the fact that they have readily accepted every hare brained initiative that the Dept have cooked up in the last decade, it was they and their own managerial authority who actively undermined the ASTI's industrial campaign for the past 4 or 5 years. Whatever you say about the strategy or lack thereof, whatever pathetic concessions we've gotten over that period of time have come about because of that union and in spite of the others, as well as just about every other stakeholder in education. It could've been more with support, which may have alleviated the current crisis to some extent.

markodaly

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why should we lower our standards? Our education system was always well regarded and our students always considered educated to a high standard. We are importing some of the worst educational practices (in my opinion) not the best.

No one said anything about lowering standards.

I just made the accurate observation that Ireland was an outlier, especially in the anglo-sphere where there were more teachers than jobs. In other countries its usually the other way around. There is historical economic reasons for this as these other countries had more opportunities for its people other than being a teacher, where in Ireland getting such a gig back in the day was a golden ticket. Its a slow moving demographic change that we now have to face.

This problem was always going to arrive.

Regards the high standards, well that is kinda subjective. Pisa results have been very hit and miss. Good in some areas, not good in others.

As to importing practices, what teaching practices should we be importing.

I don't think that's at all accurate. Teaching was a job in the 70s and 80s that yes, offered a secure salary, but you could only become a teacher with a third level education. And that wasn't available to everyone. Free third level education came in in 1996 and becoming a teacher was open to students who were able, but for whom it was inaccessible previously. It's now normal to attend third level education and with that brings a host of opportunities in sectors that weren't largely accessible and particularly in tech/science didn't exist.

Being a female teacher in Ireland especially for rural Ireland was pretty much the only way a woman could have earned a respectable career since the 50's up to the perhaps the late 80's/90's when things began to change. I grew up in the typical rural household of working dad while mum being a national school teacher in the back of beyonds. This was a good few decades ago. The only other jobs for women was perhaps in the post office, the local Co-op or maybe book keeping for some big farmers. That was it! Those days are long long gone. Women are now going into law, medicine, finance in their droves and for whatever reason men are not going into teaching in the same vien.

Travel costs have plummeted in the last 20 years making travel abroad more attainable. A foreign holiday in the 80s was only a fantasy for most people, it's the norm now for many, as is taking a year out to go back packing etc. If school leavers emigrated in the 80s, they were getting the boat to the UK to work, not flying out to Dubai to take up lucrative tax free employment in a range of professions.

During the boom ten years ago, when there seemed to be no end of money, there were no shortage of graduates looking to be teachers. Do a search on here for threads about applying for the dip. Many posters commented that they were doing a masters to give them extra points on the application so they might get in. It was still a very much sought after job, despite the opportunities in new industries such as tech. Even now I see a sizeable cohort doing work experience in primary schools each year, and also quite a number of students from my school go into teacher training courses in college each year, both primary and secondary. It's a versatile qualification: you can get a job (in theory) anywhere in the country, and you can take that qualification abroad and work if you choose.

Not everyone wants to work in Dublin and pay astronomical rent/mortgage or work in tech/science etc. Some really don't care about that stuff at all.

Oh true, I agree with a lot of that. Its just that there is now too few people looking to get into it. Also, people want to travel and see the world. Take the nursing example. Irish nurses are some of the highest paid in the EU I think, yet they just cant keep them. They prefer the better weather and life style in the ME and OZ. Its a global labour market now and the old school gilded public sector jobs in Ireland have yet to cop on to this fact.

Take another example. The UK advertise regularly for teachers in Ireland as well as in Australia and NZ. They make it easy for graduates in these countries to go there, even for a few years to work away, gain experience in a classroom and also live in Europe and Britain. Has Ireland ANY such programme like this? Ireland would be a very attractive country for a OZ/NZ graduate to gain some experience or even live long term, yet it has the appearance that teaching is for 'Irish only'. Has there been any study done on the demographic make up of teachers? It would be interesting reading.

I don't think the two years is the problem (while I think it should still be one year), it's simply the cost. 12k fees plus living expenses for two years is a hefty chunk of money, and in the last few years, I would say generally from about 2008-2016 it was nigh on impossible to get a decent teaching job, so that has a knock on effect.



In the early 2000s a post graduate conversion course, 18 months long, was introduced for graduates who wished to become primary teachers. I know many people who did that course. It's not much different from doing a 2 year course to train as a secondary teacher, and it didn't cost 12k. If a course exists with reasonable fees, and a reasonable chance of getting a job on graduation then there will be no shortage of applicants. Actually when Hibernia started offering the same course, it was considered controversial due to the distance learning style of Hibernia versus the traditional teacher training colleges. Still there was no shortage of applicants with these extra places and there were many people on here saying their best chance of getting the post grad was Hibernia as there was so much competition for the courses in Mary I etc.

Yes, the up front cost is a bit of a killer. I have a view that there should be a state backed student load system like they have in other countries where the price of tuition should never be a barrier. Then again, pretty much all post grad study is expensive and costs about 6k per year.

However while Irish is an official language of this country and has equal status to English, it will be taught in primary schools and therefore a primary school teacher will need to be able to teach it. It is one of the quirks of being an English speaking country with a native language that is only spoken by a minority.

Well then teachers will have to get used to the idea of a permanent shortage of primary school teachers. It is was a rule created at the time that no longer suits it original intention. Having that rule in place means that you pretty much exclude all non Irish-born teachers from that profession. This perhaps a wider philosophical discussion.

I'd be curious to know how this is dealt with in Wales where Welsh is compulsory up to the age of 15 or 16, so I wonder do primary school teachers in Wales have to have a Welsh language qualification or do they have dedicated Welsh teachers.


*Curiosity got the better of me, so I googled it

Yes, that is interesting about Wales, but notice that there is a choice between Welsh speaking schools and English speaking schools. No such requirement for Welsh speakers in the English speaking schools. I like the idea about choice. We should follow that model

A solution to this problem would be to have dedicated Irish language teachers in primary schools, who would take different year groups for Irish and then you could have non Irish speakers teach the other subjects. However we have a shortage of people in secondary at the moment who are qualifying to teach Irish so I can't imagine there would be enough to teach it at primary on top of that. I suppose you could have primary teachers with the Irish qualification specialise in this area and use non Irish speakers to teach the other subjects.

Yes, that could work. You could have a teacher that specialises in certain subjects. They have gone that way already in the UK where you have Math specialists, language specialist, early childhood specialist and so on. One thing about the Irish education system is that its very much a one size fit all model.

If I went to Poland with a primary school teaching qualification I would be expected to teach Polish and would be excluded from working there in that sector if I didn't have the language, which lets face it, most Irish teachers wouldn't have. Why should we undermine our own language because foreign teachers don't speak it?

Irish teachers that emigrate are largely teaching in English speaking education systems (UK, Oz, NZ). A second language is not necessary, we've just got lucky. Those that work in the middle east also teach through the medium of English, but students in those schools go to (presumably) native teachers for their Arabic lessons every day. That's the only reason teachers from Ireland can work in places like Dubai.

For all intents and purposes English is our national language and is one of the reasons we have the economy we have. The point about Poland is mute because they converse and do their business every day in Polish. We do it in English. We are having this discussion in English. 99% of the time, the Dail debate in English. I think we lie to ourselves about the how Irish is a national language on par with english and this stops needed reforms because sentementality takes over.

It's not a closed shop. Certainly at primary school there is no way around the language requirement so very few foreign teachers will have the will to learn Irish to work in a primary school.

I think you have proved my point. Its a closed shop to everyone unless they know Irish. Almost 20% of our population is foreign born. They get excluded straight away. You need to fit a certain demographic to be an Irish Primary school teacher, which is actually bad for diversity in the long run.

I don't want to focus this discussion exclusively on the Irish language but want to highlight that barrier it creates to people who would want to become teachers yet fall at the first hurdle. This was of course fine when there was a glut of teachers, but now. Those days are gone and probably forever.

The other side of that argument: in all the years i've been posting here, I've seen many posts asking about teaching in the UK/Middle East, but I've yet to see a post that says 'how do I go about getting a primary school teaching job in Germany/France/Italy?' It would be a requirement to teach through the native language and as our graduates would not have that requirement they are excluded from those jobs. Is that any different from the foreign teachers who can't teach in Irish primary schools?

Again, as I mentioned about the first language of France is french, the first language of German is German, while the first language of Ireland is English. Its apples and oranges.

Irish isn't a requirement to teach in a second level school, unless you are teaching Irish or teaching through the medium of Irish, and there aren't many of those schools around. So there is no barrier to entry there, except for the nightmare of the TC, which is a pain to deal with whether you are Irish or not.

100% correct. The TC are the real enemy here. Why could they not have a database of accepted qualifications from abroad so people know where they stood. Its a joke in this day and age but my image of them is a bunch of grey haired pen pushers who have no idea who the modern labour market or global education system works.

Bullshit. Ireland didn't have any sort of a sizeable immigrant population until about 12 - 15 years ago. Foreign students in schools were practically non existant. A couple of English kids here and there, the odd European student (Western Europe generally), but that was about it. So this notion that the immigrants would always take the low end stuff is bull, as we haven't even had a full generation of mass immigration into Ireland yet. In the mid 2000s when immigration to the country boomed, lots of schools were suddenly faced with a high proportion of children who did not speak English and didn't have the resources or structures to cope with it. Some towns would have felt that effect more than others.

Take somewhere like Gort where at one point, one quarter of the town's population was Brazilian, and you have one secondary school in the town, then you have a sizeable number of students who don't have English as their first language needing extra tuition. That was replicated all over the country.

You can't possibly say that the natives would run the country and public service jobs kept for them, when children that moved here 15 years ago are only coming through the education system now. Integration takes time, and as with immigration in many places it take time, often more than one generation to establish roots and for children of those emmigrants to thrive in society and often I would say from what I see in school, it's because those kids are coming from homes where no English is spoken and the only English they get is in school. It takes time for them to learn the language and to be able to compete with native speakers, and therefore succeed in education and in the workplace.

I think we more agree here than disagree. My point is though offical Ireland was never threatened with the boom of immigration that happened post 2000. It was because many of these jobs was already closed off to these new migrants. I don't want to sound like a broken record but again, the same problems arise here. Take the Gardai for example? Why is there an Irish requirement for that? Or even public servant. You need to have Irish in the LC to be one. Why? This stuff will come back to haunt us in the future when its exposed that there is a serious lack of diversity of people running the country. Yes, migration is new to us but we have not even started to ask these questions.

In Finland, that oft lauded educational paradise, has a pupil teacher ratio in secondary schools of 11:1, ours is 19:1. It is a requirement for a teacher to have a masters, only the best graduates are accepted into teacher training programmes. Teaching is seen as a prestigious job in Finland and not undermined constantly. We don't have that public support here

Following the Finish model seems to be the panacea for all education systems world wide. Has there been any study done on how they got there, as in how the the government and unions get together and play ball rather then fight each other.

It just seems in Ireland the unions don't trust the government, and they would be right, while the government don't trust the unions and they would be right (who dares speak of benchmarking).

byhookorbycrook

markodaly wrote: »

Because this is a topic about the shortage of teachers, not a strike.

As far as I know teachers in Ireland have never advocated reform for less religion and Irish in schools. In fact its been the opposite.

Why is this important? Well because its a barrier to the teaching profession for almost 20% of the people living in this state who are born abroad. (primary teaching). Teaching has always been viewed as as a pretty conservative vocation.

Put it this way. If you put in a barrier that automatically bars almost every foreign born person and the native born are going abroad, less and less are taking Irish LC, you are left with a smaller pool who even qualify for primary teaching, never mind those who want to be teachers.

I made my points quite clear in an earlier post about this. The labour requirements for these types of jobs have not moved with the times and move they must. That means the old requirements of Irish and teaching religion should be given a hard look. This is a broader point as well about entry into the Gardai, civil service and so on. Not just teaching, I am not picking on that alone I am just making a general observation on the Irish public service and its lack of change in relation to the changing labour market.

This would be just one aspect though, there are more things that could be done as well, as I outlined in my post.



So what exactly am I wrong about then? You are saying the entry requirements at present have nothing to do with the shortage? Well go on then, explain that thesis.

You are making a lot of assumptions and we all know that the word assumptions has a certain 3 letter word at the start. and being honest, you are starting to really show your lack of insight into the real world of teaching.
Without giving too much away, I can tell you that all of our foreign born students are completely fluent in Irish by 2nd class.

The labour market comment, now, seriously, have you taken in by that rubbish about how Google only wants x,y,z so we must drop everything else and only do whatever the current fad is in schools?Coding, anyone? Driving lessons?Operation Transformation? Every time there is any type of problem, some politician somewhere wrings his hands and gives the usual soundbite of how "Schools should..." sort every single ill today.

And this shoots your anti-Irish as "anti-employable" BS right out of the water.

Children who are bilingual from an early age will acquire 3rd and 4th languages far more easily. We used to also teach German in our primary school but the DES stopped all of that, because, look, Pisa results.

byhookorbycrook

Ah, he didn't ,did he? Yep, right on time, let's ape the wonderful English system.

"Yes, that could work. You could have a teacher that specialises in certain subjects. They have gone that way already in the UK where you have Math specialists, language specialist, early childhood specialist and so on. One thing about the Irish education system is that its very much a one size fit all model."

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2017/nov/16/to-stop-teachers-leaving-the-profession-lets-help-them-make-a-difference

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/08/almost-a-quarter-of-teachers-who-have-qualified-since-2011-have-left-profession

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-39934526

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38157811

markodaly

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

And don't get me started on school funding. What job expects you to hold cake sales, sponsored walks, pack bags in supermarkets on your weekends to raise money to pay for things like toilet paper and heating?

Well this is typical Ireland really. To take the attention of teachers for a second, Gardai are generally well paid, yet have to do with facilities and tech about 20 years out of date. Why is that.

In Ireland we have a pre-disposition to pay the employee and not fund anything else. Why? Employees vote, computers and Garda cars don't. We got away with it for a few generations but not now, this type of strategic thinking is coming home to roost.

markodaly

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We have a very robust examination system run by the State Exams Commission and a pretty robust college application system run by the CAO. Now it doesn't work for everyone some students find the academic model tough, but the bottom line is if you work hard to achieve your grades which are awarded anonymously then you can get a place in college. It's not about what school you went to, where you live or who your father is. In that regard it makes education and access to college a level playing field.

When the new JC was announced with in house grading, teachers/principals were commenting on here that already schools were receiving phone calls of the nature 'you'll look after my Johnny won't you'. Already the notion of putting a word in for a child to get a better grade for no educationally sound reason was catching on with some parents. While this is only at JC level as yet, if it ever extends to LC level, it could potentially be a problem with college places at stake. I don't want to be in a system where that problem could exist when our system is a blunt instrument but ultimately fair to all students.

I somewhat agree. The leaving cert should be off limits and be kept out on its own. But lets be honest here, the JC really isn't that important anymore since the old days of the inter cert.

markodaly

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

I am telling you that your determination to stick your oar in off topic to tell us to "get over it, teachers are no worse off than anyone else, and they're also to blame for their own problems, wait til I tell you how to do your job better" is a daily drone at this stage and something very few other workers have to put up with.

I am not sticking my oar in anything. I gave my opinion on why I think there are now teacher shortages. You can agree or disagree but again, don't take criticism of your profession so personally. Are you seriously saying that criticism of teachers should not be allowed. I am not even criticising them, I am criticising their representation by their unions. A different thing although. Again, relax.

markodaly

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ah, he didn't ,did he? Yep, right on time, let's ape the wonderful English system.

"Yes, that could work. You could have a teacher that specialises in certain subjects. They have gone that way already in the UK where you have Math specialists, language specialist, early childhood specialist and so on. One thing about the Irish education system is that its very much a one size fit all model."

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2017/nov/16/to-stop-teachers-leaving-the-profession-lets-help-them-make-a-difference

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/08/almost-a-quarter-of-teachers-who-have-qualified-since-2011-have-left-profession

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-39934526

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38157811

Now look who is reading into posts. Just because there are UK primary school teachers who specialise in various subjects, something someone else brought up in relation to the teaching of Irish here as a solution to teacher shortages, does not mean I want to 'ape' the entire system. Come on, like at least give me a fair go instead of attacking me for spurious reasons.

Having specialities at primary level is not a UK only thing either by the way, seeing as you totally ignored that point I was making. In fact Ireland is an outlier for not having them. Singapore, top of the PISA list have them along with most other high performing nations.

markodaly

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

And this shoots your anti-Irish as "anti-employable" BS right out of the water.

Your calling me anti-Irish?

r93kaey5p2izun

markodaly wrote: »

I am not sticking my oar in anything. I gave my opinion on why I think there are now teacher shortages. You can agree or disagree but again, don't take criticism of your profession so personally. Are you seriously saying that criticism of teachers should not be allowed. I am not even criticising them, I am criticising their representation by their unions. A different thing although. Again, relax.

What utter nonsense, given I actually posted the words "you are welcome to air your opinion and to criticise teachers all you want". This thread is not an appropriate forum for your opinion of teachers, unions or the systemic failings of the education system as a whole. This thread was started to ask how schools are coping with the shortage of teachers day to day. You evidently have no insights into that.

markodaly

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

What utter nonsense, given I actually posted the words "you are welcome to air your opinion and to criticise teachers all you want". This thread is not an appropriate forum for your opinion of teachers, unions or the systemic failings of the education system as a whole. This thread was started to ask how schools are coping with the shortage of teachers day to day. You evidently have no insights into that.

Like all topics, things take a life of its own where by people began discussing the root causes of the shortage, this happened way back before I even posted. They offered their opinion, I offered mine. That is all.

r93kaey5p2izun

markodaly wrote: »

Like all topics, things take a life of its own where by people began discussing the root causes of the shortage, this happened way back before I even posted. They offered their opinion, I offered mine. That is all.

That is not all. So far you have stated incorrectly that I brought corporate anecdotes into my thread about schools coping with the shortage, stated incorrectly that I am just blaming the government, and stated incorrectly that I said no criticism of teachers should be allowed. At this stage you are just making things up to argue back whatever preconceived ideas you are obviously so eager to put forward. Yet another person who never misses an opportunity, no matter how inappropriate, to share their expertise on the wrongs of our education system with teachers. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given it's a daily plague for all teachers. God forbid we might actually be left to have a conversation about the actual issues we're dealing with at the moment.

markodaly

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

That is not all. So far you have stated incorrectly that I brought corporate anecdotes into my thread about schools coping with the shortage, stated incorrectly that I am just blaming the government, and stated incorrectly that I said no criticism of teachers should be allowed. At this stage you are just making things up to argue back whatever preconceived ideas you are obviously so eager to put forward. Yet another person who never misses an opportunity, no matter how inappropriate, to share their expertise on the wrongs of our education system with teachers. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given it's a daily plague for all teachers. God forbid we might actually be left to have a conversation about the actual issues we're dealing with at the moment.

Eh, relax! I am not your enemy.

rainbowtrout

markodaly wrote: »

No one said anything about lowering standards.

I just made the accurate observation that Ireland was an outlier, especially in the anglo-sphere where there were more teachers than jobs. In other countries its usually the other way around. There is historical economic reasons for this as these other countries had more opportunities for its people other than being a teacher, where in Ireland getting such a gig back in the day was a golden ticket. Its a slow moving demographic change that we now have to face.

This problem was always going to arrive.

Regards the high standards, well that is kinda subjective. Pisa results have been very hit and miss. Good in some areas, not good in others.

As to importing practices, what teaching practices should we be importing.

There's nothing wrong with being an outlier, if it means you have a high quality graduates entering the profession. I don't believe that primary school teachers should have to teach half the stuff that has been dumped into the curriculum. Let them focus on the obvious: reading, writing, arithmetic. It mightn't seem very revolutionary, but a lot of problems we see in secondary schools are because students have issues in some of these areas.

markodaly wrote: »

Being a female teacher in Ireland especially for rural Ireland was pretty much the only way a woman could have earned a respectable career since the 50's up to the perhaps the late 80's/90's when things began to change. I grew up in the typical rural household of working dad while mum being a national school teacher in the back of beyonds. This was a good few decades ago. The only other jobs for women was perhaps in the post office, the local Co-op or maybe book keeping for some big farmers. That was it! Those days are long long gone. Women are now going into law, medicine, finance in their droves and for whatever reason men are not going into teaching in the same vien.

Being a primary school teacher whether urban or rural was only available to women that came from families that could afford to send them to university. Like many people of their age, my parents left school in the 1960s at the age of 15. A Leaving Cert wasn't realistic for many, let alone a third level education. So if you mother was of that demographic that had a teaching job, her family could afford to send her to college, it most certainly wasn't the norm for most. Given the far smaller pool of people that went to college, there wouldn't have much any way as much competition for teaching jobs for graduates.

I did my LC in 1996, that first year of free education. I suspect that if I had done it in 1986, third level education would not have been an option for me as my family could not have afforded it. I would most likely have had a secretarial course as an option, maybe do the civil service exam and get an admin job, or if I was really lucky, get a job in a bank. Even in the estate I grew up on in Limerick, girls/lads who were only 5 or 6 years older than me, very few of them went to third level. They would have come from families with similar incomes and lifestyles to mine, the cost was just beyond them. I know that at the age I did the LC, I got lucky.

markodaly wrote: »

Oh true, I agree with a lot of that. Its just that there is now too few people looking to get into it. Also, people want to travel and see the world. Take the nursing example. Irish nurses are some of the highest paid in the EU I think, yet they just cant keep them. They prefer the better weather and life style in the ME and OZ. Its a global labour market now and the old school gilded public sector jobs in Ireland have yet to cop on to this fact.

The mass exodus from nursing didn't just happen because of the weather in Australia. Poor pay and working conditions, a bar on hiring in the public sector, put a fairly substantial nail in that coffin. Again 10 years ago nursing was in demand and there was a lot of competition to get into nursing degrees here.

markodaly wrote: »

Take another example. The UK advertise regularly for teachers in Ireland as well as in Australia and NZ. They make it easy for graduates in these countries to go there, even for a few years to work away, gain experience in a classroom and also live in Europe and Britain. Has Ireland ANY such programme like this? Ireland would be a very attractive country for a OZ/NZ graduate to gain some experience or even live long term, yet it has the appearance that teaching is for 'Irish only'. Has there been any study done on the demographic make up of teachers? It would be interesting reading.

The UK have been recruiting, I would say aggressively in Ireland for about 20 years. Sure, they make it easy for graduates to get work, but do they have a choice? If they don't make it easy, they won't have enough teachers to teach in the UK, it's that simple. Plenty of schools over there have a turn over rate of 20% of staff every year. 40% of UK teachers leave the profession in the first five years. They are swamped in paperwork. Lots of schools have a transient staff, who stay for a year while they travel around the world, it's just a stop gap job for many. They are not invested in it in the long term. Irish students are quite lucky by comparison that teachers here do generally enter teaching for the long term and up to now, schools would have a stable long term staff. This can bring its own benefits where teachers get to know students, over a period of years, and students understand a teacher's style of teaching rather than be on a merry go round of a constantly changing rota of teachers who have to spend time getting to know them each year.

Because there is a shortage in teaching doesn't mean we should just open the floodgates and let anyone teach that wants to. The TC could and should be streamlined, but standards should be maintained.

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, that is interesting about Wales, but notice that there is a choice between Welsh speaking schools and English speaking schools. No such requirement for Welsh speakers in the English speaking schools. I like the idea about choice. We should follow that model

No, you have chosen to misinterpret the Welsh qualifications. Teachers in Welsh speaking schools will teach through the medium of Welsh. Teachers in English speaking schools will have to teach Welsh as part of the core curriculum, therefore will need Welsh. No different from us.

markodaly wrote: »

For all intents and purposes English is our national language and is one of the reasons we have the economy we have. The point about Poland is mute because they converse and do their business every day in Polish. We do it in English. We are having this discussion in English. 99% of the time, the Dail debate in English. I think we lie to ourselves about the how Irish is a national language on par with english and this stops needed reforms because sentementality takes over.

Most people might live their lives through English, but some live their lives through Irish, and it is part of our identity, history and culture, and the point about Polish is not mute, their first language is the medium of choice.

English is by and large the medium of choice here, but there is no reason why we can't teach our children our native language.

markodaly wrote: »

I think you have proved my point. Its a closed shop to everyone unless they know Irish. Almost 20% of our population is foreign born. They get excluded straight away. You need to fit a certain demographic to be an Irish Primary school teacher, which is actually bad for diversity in the long run.

No they don't, this has already been discussed on thread.

markodaly wrote: »

Following the Finish model seems to be the panacea for all education systems world wide. Has there been any study done on how they got there, as in how the the government and unions get together and play ball rather then fight each other.

The Finnish system has been well documented. They didn't rush into just pushing through any old hare brained scheme. They built it up from the ground. Established a situation where only the best graduates were chosen for teaching, made it a highly sought after job, reduced teacher pupil ratios. Teaching is a prestige job in Finland. It gets nothing but negative publicity in Ireland.

You don't change a system and get that kind of success overnight. You put in a 10 or 20 year plan. You decide for example that you are going to reduce class sizes in schools. So this year in the budget you reduce the ratio from 19:1 to 18:1, and in primary schools from 27:1 to 26:1. You commit to say reducing it by 1 each year for five successive years. Even if you made that one change, it would provide more employment first of all. Secondly students would reap the benefits of being taught in smaller classes and it would have the knock on effect of weaker students not getting as much time as they need currently getting more attention and maybe their attainment levels would improve. Teachers would not be under as severe a workload, even from the point of view of correcting copies. With extra staff minority subjects could be retained or introduced.

After you have enacted that part of the plan, you might decide to reduced teaching time from 22 hours to 21 and two years down the road reduce it to 20 hours. Again this would have the immediate effect of creating more jobs in schools, but also it would give teachers extra prep time for their classes, and with two hours less teaching time it is likely most teachers at second level would have one less teaching group on their timetable.

Government if they had the appetite could set up state run teacher training, at an affordable price. Or set up a system where there is some agreement with the teacher training colleges about a set fee for the dip.

Stop copying the UK. Have faith in our own educational system, and stop copying our near neighbours, particularly when it has been shown that the system we are about to adopt doesn't work, and the UK are trying to get rid of it, and bring in a system like our LC. In 20 years time I will be at retirement age or thereabouts in my teaching career and I predict that we will be scrapping the new JC Cycle and it will be categorised as a load of bollocks, but many teachers have already called that in the last couple of years.

evolving_doors

thread on ice for review

If it's opened again it has to be fair to the OP's original discussion point. It was directed at teachers but the waters have been muddied.
Mod

Edit: ok back open again. People have spent a lot of time responding so we'll let it run.
Keep it civil
Ta