Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

Grueller

I have heard it all now. The esteemed minister urging young teachers to "wear the green jersey" and stay to teach in Ireland. After all the cuts to them by his government he has some neck. As I heard a man say before, he is neck from the arse up.

Seannew1

A vote of no confidence against Minister Bruton please. In fairness, it was Ruairí Quinn who created this s*** for everyone, Bruton just won't acknowledge or deal with the problem.

thegreatescape

rainbowtrout wrote: »

My principal told me only this week that at a meeting the other day they were told that only four students are graduating in home economics this year. I don't have any evidence for that, but I'm going to assume that this is due to four year teacher training degrees moving from four to five years and having a year with no graduates. There is already severe shortages in home economics.

I'm graduating in home economics this year and there are over 65 of us graduating. Still not a huge amount, but far greater than 4.
Next year is going to be particularly rough in schools as you've pointed out as the next year of home economics graduates won't be out until 2020.

Another problem I'm finding on teaching practice is the teaching council's refusal to pay us for subbing. I'm in an ETB school and can't get paid for any subbing as I'm still doing my degree and cannot be registered. If student teachers were allowed to gain more experience and a bit of money while we're at it, it may help things a small bit.

spurious

thegreatescape wrote: »

I'm graduating in home economics this year and there are over 65 of us graduating. Still not a huge amount, but far greater than 4.

Do you happen to know how many of the last output of HE graduates are in full-time jobs?

thegreatescape

spurious wrote: »

Do you happen to know how many of the last output of HE graduates are in full-time jobs?

There's not one person from last year's graduates that's not in employment.

rainbowtrout

thegreatescape wrote: »

I'm graduating in home economics this year and there are over 65 of us graduating. Still not a huge amount, but far greater than 4.
Next year is going to be particularly rough in schools as you've pointed out as the next year of home economics graduates won't be out until 2020.

Another problem I'm finding on teaching practice is the teaching council's refusal to pay us for subbing. I'm in an ETB school and can't get paid for any subbing as I'm still doing my degree and cannot be registered. If student teachers were allowed to gain more experience and a bit of money while we're at it, it may help things a small bit.

He probably meant next year. I didn't follow up on his comment.

SligoBrewer

spurious wrote: »

Do you happen to know how many of the last output of HE graduates are in full-time jobs?

Not all are going into HE teaching spurious. They're being poached by industry.

byhookorbycrook

Blaming career breaks is, frankly, hilarious. A NQT will have a job for at least a year and get their dip done in primary. Does Brutal not realise that if every teacher was pulled back from CB, that even NQTS would have to go abroad without the prospect of a year's work for certain? And what about those teachers on secondment to the DES?

And just a few short weeks ago, there was no shortage, according to him.
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2018/0109/931964-substitute-teachers-shortage/

And he can talk all he likes about "exciting" new developments and "shortcuts " into teaching all he likes, but the longer the pay divide exists, he is only blowing smoke out of his ****

TL17

Supply panels are vital. Who wants to hang around one day at a time. May be little more expensive but needs must. Other wise they will be unable to hold all these shiny courses in ed centres (though that prob no harm)
There is no problem at primary filling long term positions. So this rush to prevent career breaks is wrong. These are crucial to help young teachers gain a foothold. Without the prospects they offer fewer would opt for teaching on the cao

userb

I cant believe he's taken this stance honestly..

spurious

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Not all are going into HE teaching spurious. They're being poached by industry.

I wonder how many are filling maternity leaves, career breaks etc. and will be seeking jobs again next year.
60+ is a lot of graduates, for 700 odd schools, not all of which offer Home Ec. and most of those that do already have a full-time teacher.
'In employment' can mean a great range of things.

SligoBrewer

spurious wrote: »

I wonder how many are filling maternity leaves, career breaks etc. and will be seeking jobs again next year.
60+ is a lot of graduates, for 700 odd schools, not all of which offer Home Ec. and most of those that do already have a full-time teacher.
'In employment' can mean a great range of things.

True, let's try and put a number on it though.

We're assuming that all 60 graduate and that all 60 want to teach in Ireland.

700 schools * 1.5 teachers on average per school = 1050 teachers.
1050 / 40 = 26 teachers on average per year leaving the profession.

Then add in maternities, secondments, career breaks which would be harder to put a number on, but would probably exceed 30 per year?

60 graduates per year, assuming all are female (massive assumption), each 2 children on average (again, massive assumption).
120 maternity leaves per graduating year, spread out over a 12 year period give or take.
12 of these years would build up, giving us 120 maternity leaves coming on stream every year?
That sounds crazy and probably wrong, but even if I'm out by a factor of 4, we are well over the 60 graduates per year.

120 Maternities
26 Retirements.
+ Career Breaks

It's not hard to see how there is a shortage.

rainbowtrout

There are three home ec teachers in my school. Not all have a full timetable of home ec. For a while there before Christmas all three were on maternity leave, one is back but the other two are out for the rest of the year. We are using up way more than our quota!

userb

its unreal that he goes for the career breaks, just unreal

r93kaey5p2izun

We have one Home Ec teacher but would like three. We always had two but one resigned because she was being made to teach her second subject. Management decided that Home Ec teachers should teach their second subject to reduce the amount of Home Ec on any individual timetable so it would be easier to cover if they were out - this came after two consecutive maternity leaves with no sub. So they split the Home Ec among three, hiring a new teacher to take the extra hours. Then one left due to being unhappy with timetable and the new teacher left because she was refused job share.

We now have one teacher nearing retirement and have had to drastically reduce numbers doing Home Ec, causing great upset for students. A sign of things to come if in demand subject teachers are refused career breaks and job shares I think. We will lose them completely instead of temporarily.

maynooth_rules

Seannew1 wrote: »

A vote of no confidence against Minister Bruton please. In fairness, it was Ruairí Quinn who created this s*** for everyone, Bruton just won't acknowledge or deal with the problem.

So many of the problems in Education now can be directed straight back to Quinn, he was an utter disaster. The shambles of a new Jct was his doing. Seems ministers since have just followed on with his car crashes.
It does get very grating hearing Bruton talk about 'stakeholders' in every bloody interview like he is talking about a business

markodaly

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

And he can talk all he likes about "exciting" new developments and "shortcuts " into teaching all he likes, but the longer the pay divide exists, he is only blowing smoke out of his ****

That assumes that the shortage is purely about pay, which it isn't. It might be part of it though.

The career break thing is something that all Irish Public Servants have, which is a great perk but perhaps it is time to examine it? Lets park comparing Ireland to the UK as I know its a touchy subject so lets compare career breaks to Finland, Singapore, Australia and NZ. Do these countries have 5 year career breaks where you can slot back into the old job? Afaik, the concept of taking a career break does exist but you will lose your post/job (i.e. that full time position will be opened up). You can of course go back but will have to re-apply through the usual processes if there is a position. Correct me if I am wrong.

Seannew1

maynooth_rules wrote: »

So many of the problems in Education now can be directed straight back to Quinn, he was an utter disaster. The shambles of a new Jct was his doing. Seems ministers since have just followed on with his car crashes.
It does get very grating hearing Bruton talk about 'stakeholders' in every bloody interview like he is talking about a business

Yeah good old Ruairí, probably the most ignorant man you will ever meet. I remember his manifesto well in 2011. On the face of it, very impressive but he reversed everything he said he'd do. it must be noted his government also introduced the 2 year PME; possibly the most pointless thing ever, which I believe as well as different pay scales, is also a major contributor to the current subject shortage. If you want a good laugh, read his wikipedia page.

Gaia Mother Earth

I don't think that Career Breaks should be stopped but I do think that certain people should get priority over others, for example, people with young families

I would rather see a reduction in Career Breaks than this take anyone with a parchment into teaching using the easiest and quickest means possible.

There is a shortage, no doubt about it. I'm in Donegal and schools are finding it very difficult to find a qualified teacher to cover days.

However, subbing is very difficult, it can be very seasonal. I don't know how you would lure anyone into it.

userb

I don't think clamping down on career breaks will affect the problem

Gaia Mother Earth

userb wrote: »

I don't think clamping down on career breaks will affect the problem

Of course it will. I know one primary school in Dublin with a staff of 18 and there are 3 teachers off on Career break. They are off long term as in close to the 5 years and 2 of them, I don't know if they'll ever come back.

I know the school found it hard to fill one of the temporary positions last summer as the teacher who was in covering got permanent in another school.

I suppose it should be left up to the individual BOM rather than a blanket ban on Career Breaks. There is absolutely no point in granting CBs if schools are going to be struggling to fill positions later in the year.

evolving_doors

userb wrote: »

I cant believe he's taken this stance honestly..

Par for the course smokescreen.
Cue teacher bashing threads.

Teacher shortage!
Minister says there is none.
But hey look over here at this recent discovery of baaaad mean old teachers taking unpaid career breaks.
Mean old teachers.

But hey , he says there's no shortage so what's the point in mentioning career breaks if it has no impact on teaching numbers.

What a tangled web we weave when we set out to deceive.

joe40

I have been teaching in the north for over 20 years. Full time position. PGCE from queen's university and degree in chemistry from English university. I live in donegal and looked into registering with the teaching council (brexit uncertainty). Just starting the process but the amount of red tape and bureaucracy is crazy. I know there are others in my position and there are teacher shortages. Teaching council could help

NufcNavan

joe40 wrote: »

Teaching council could help

Funniest thing I've read on this thread so far.

miqeel

I read this thread and as I progressed I felt a growing sense of unease. I am currently training to be a maths and physics teacher in the PME. It seems to me that the teacher shortage is only going to get worse, and in my subjects worse still.
How bad is it going to get?
What I am reading here makes me more hopeful for the ability to find a job once I graduate - I hope

amacca

miqeel wrote: »

I read this thread and as I progressed I felt a growing sense of unease. I am currently training to be a maths and physics teacher in the PME. It seems to me that the teacher shortage is only going to get worse, and in my subjects worse still.
How bad is it going to get?
What I am reading here makes me more hopeful for the ability to find a job once I graduate - I hope

I'd think as carefully about the kind of job you might get rather than the fact there might be one available the way things are going......

markodaly

miqeel wrote: »

I read this thread and as I progressed I felt a growing sense of unease. I am currently training to be a maths and physics teacher in the PME. It seems to me that the teacher shortage is only going to get worse, and in my subjects worse still.
How bad is it going to get?
What I am reading here makes me more hopeful for the ability to find a job once I graduate - I hope

With those subjects after a year or two teaching experience, you could have your pick of schools.

rainbowtrout

Gaia Mother Earth wrote: »

I don't think that Career Breaks should be stopped but I do think that certain people should get priority over others, for example, people with young families

Why should childless teachers be discriminated against? People take career breaks for all sorts of reasons, not just to mind children.

markodaly

joe40 wrote: »

Teaching council could help

This is the one area that they could definitely reform. They should make the process streamlined and easy for teachers outside of Ireland. They should have a database of accepted qualifications for teachers from around the world, in various subjects. The teaching council and other quangos like them certainly don't make it easy to attract skilled labour into these types of state-based roles. They need a more modern open approach and not the closed shop mentality.

amacca

Gaia Mother Earth wrote: »

Of course it will. I know one primary school in Dublin with a staff of 18 and there are 3 teachers off on Career break. They are off long term as in close to the 5 years and 2 of them, I don't know if they'll ever come back.

I know the school found it hard to fill one of the temporary positions last summer as the teacher who was in covering got permanent in another school.

I suppose it should be left up to the individual BOM rather than a blanket ban on Career Breaks. There is absolutely no point in granting CBs if schools are going to be struggling to fill positions later in the year.

Of course it will? ....maybe short term but your not thinking of the implications of it long term...its an ill advised thing to do for lots of reasons...

Think about the parallels between the knock on negative consequences of changes the supervision and substitution scheme and this new bright idea...

Now instead of an NQT getting say a 12hr contract and the principal being abled to top that up with supervision hours so they have a half liveable weekly wage (at least in the country) they now face the prospect of getting anywhere down to 3 guaranteed hours a week after 4/5 years of a degree and a 2 year pme and the opportunity cost along with the direct financial penalty that entails....we won't even mention the time it takes off full timers already at the pin of their collar and the negative consequences of that...no wonder NQTs are voting with their feet......and forcing them to give years working here after the PME (after they paid through the nose for the course) will have even less graduates wanting to go near it..its kind of funny the knee jerk reactions to problems involving education....if it was any other sector I'd say Bruton would have been savaged on Morning Ireland for the tripe he came up with this morning.

So whats the parallel?...well ...reduce or remove career breaks and there are even less viable positions for an NQT to take up so you make it less viable for them to get a start and shudder "put on the green jersey" ffs......maybe give it a wash after you finish tramping it around in the muck Richard.

There are other issues with it as policy not to mention the fact that it doesn't address any of the real problems that are causing the shortage.......I mean think about it....some teachers want a career break so they can pursue another career so they go on a CB to upskill or do another job possibly in a related field (and possibly not)...IF you remove the safety net by removing CBs less will go short term (and some will just finally have had enough of the bull**** and realise they can take their education and skills elsewhere and resign and finally tell the system to **** off) but for those that stay or are forced to for mortgage or commitment reasons, if they had any ambitions to do anything else and you make it a huge risk for them to move then you have cohort of resentful people stuck doing a job and too fearful to transition into a job they were willing to make the effort to train for and work at on their own bat its not like career breaks are a paid holiday......it is just such a bad idea

like the litany of others that have come before it........Out of curiosity, how much has SS saved...something like 60million?.....it will take many multiples of that to repair the damage.....its terrible leadership and management by dept/minster imo...