Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

snor

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

My school is seriously struggling due to lack of teachers. But they are still not willing to offer full hours in any subject. They had a policy of keeping everyone on part time hours and without job security for over a dcade. At the time of the Ward Circular there were more than 30 part time teachers in my school - several in each subject area - and nobody had gotten full CID or permanency in over 15 years . The Ward circular meant that these nearly all have full CID now, many through transfer to other centres in our ETB. But all new teachers hired since then (we've had lots of retirements and growing enrolment) are on part time contracts and they're never successful in the Year 2 re interview. They just will not give up the control they like having over part time teachers with no job security even when faced with having to close the school on H&S grounds.

This is the reason I left teaching over 20 years ago - then the old EPT system. Family reared now and thinking of going back, but hearing stories like this tell me nothing has changed!

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

it seems grossly unfair on younger people entering the profession if they likely not to have a job as of course there will be a preference for hiring more experienced retirees.

How would the retirees have felt if the situation was the same for them when they were newly qualified. Imagine the mass immigration and outcry if you had that across other professions. It would the same affect as the recession for new graduates on a permanent basis.

"People registering under further education and subbing in primary and post-primary schools bothers me more".


i dont understand the above remark regarding further education? Do you mean it bothers you that there are only substitute position available after such people have gone through further education?

Schools have to provide evidence that they could not find a suitable substitute before offering a retiree substitute positions. I have worked in several schools and have only seen one retiree working to fill a subject that there is high demand and no applicants. What is your solution??? Leave the classes without a teacher for up to 26 weeks without a teacher?? Don't allow a retiree with the desired subject take the classes but put in a younger teacher without the subject to cover these classes - are you for real?

With relation to your second point, graduates can register in the further education sector with the Teaching Council without a teaching qualification and can sub. Now that is unfair to people who have studied (at great cost) to gain a teaching qualification and people without are working in primary and post-primary schools.

byhookorbycrook

If it's a choice between splitting a class of 30 primary children for a week and having them sit at the back of the room with endless worksheets or having a retired teacher actually teach them for a week, I know which is better. I work in a Gaelscoil and trying to find ANYONE with enough Irish to sub for us is a nightmare. We're lucky to have two retirees to fill the odd gap. They aren't taking anyone's long term subbing, they aren't keeping an NQT from getting their dips.

lightspeed

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Schools have to provide evidence that they could not find a suitable substitute before offering a retiree substitute positions. I have worked in several schools and have only seen one retiree working to fill a subject that there is high demand and no applicants. What is your solution??? Leave the classes without a teacher for up to 26 weeks without a teacher?? Don't allow a retiree with the desired subject take the classes but put in a younger teacher without the subject to cover these classes - are you for real?

With relation to your second point, graduates can register in the further education sector with the Teaching Council without a teaching qualification and can sub. Now that is unfair to people who have studied (at great cost) to gain a teaching qualification and people without are working in primary and post-primary schools.

I think if the situation is that that schools have to hire retirees even through there are some newly qualified teachers only on 11 hours a week that that is wrong and the whole system needs to change.

It should be just managed similar to private sector jobs. Its madness that there are largely substitute positions available with no certainty of full time hours despite huge shortages of teachers.

There should just be a review of how many full time teachers are needed and then they should be hired. It really should be that simple.

i had a look at ASTI website as im still ignorant to the different types of teacher jobs exist. I notice there are 5 types of non permanent types of work for teachers.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/what-contract-do-you-have/

That says it all really doesnt it and personally i find it all quite complex.

lightspeed

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

Would be likely less than a full weeks work in secondary positions?

I've read a little about CID contracts. Can schools just refuse to hire you after given you 2 fixed term contracts to avoid giving you CID?

If you were determined to stick it out would you be assured of CID or permanent position in either primary or secondary?

dave_brent

Where are teaching jobs advertised. Check education posts, education careers, public jobs, etb website and see only odd part time, materity, pro rata contracts. No full time posts.

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

Would be likely less than a full weeks work in secondary positions?

I've read a little about CID contracts. Can schools just refuse to hire you after given you 2 fixed term contracts to avoid giving you CID?

If you were determined to stick it out would you be assured of CID or permanent position in either primary or secondary?

Anything between 1 and 22 hours. If on less than 22, you could pick up some subbing hours.

Re: CIDs. If you pick up your own hours (RPT) for a year, 'your' job is re-advertised in May/June and you have to interview again. If you are successful and work the year out, you must be starting the third year in order to get CID. If a school doesn't want to employ you again, that's their opportunity. Search the posts here - it's more common than you think.

You can't be assured of anything until you have your CID contract signed and in your hand. There is also a chance that there could be a teacher redeployed into a teachers position.

r93kaey5p2izun

lightspeed wrote: »

There should just be a review of how many full time teachers are needed and then they should be hired. It really should be that simple.

How could it possibly be that simple when individual subjects come into it?

evolving_doors

lightspeed wrote: »

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Pick any number between 0 and 22 inclusive.

lightspeed wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

No but given the nature of primary it wouldn't be so much an 'hours' game. Primary teachers have the same class all day/week/year so if a teacher is out then you're with that class. If a secondary teacher is out then it depends what subjects they teach an when. But to generalise; subwork is a bit more stable in primary than scondary.

lightspeed wrote: »

Would be likely less than a full weeks work in secondary positions?

Yes

lightspeed wrote: »

I've read a little about CID contracts. Can schools just refuse to hire you after given you 2 fixed term contracts to avoid giving you CID?

Yes. Some do give the CID. Some just let the person go and rejig the job spec and readvertise so technically it's not the 'same' position. That's if they are trying to be evasive to save face. Other's just blatantly re-advertise the exact same post they let someone go from. After 2 years they must re-advertise the position if a CID is in the offering so they can always claim the new hire is more suitable to the school etc. Then again other schools can create a position and offer someone a CID from the get-go (no 2 year wait).

lightspeed wrote: »

If you were determined to stick it out would you be assured of CID or permanent position in either primary or secondary?

No.

Retired teachers being a 'problem' is trotted out every year to muddy the waters, career breaks is the new water muddying spin machine.

lightspeed

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

How could it possibly be that simple when individual subjects come into it?

How are foreign schools in places like the middle east doing it?

Isnt it the case that quite a few irish teachers at secondary level have and continue to flock abroad to ME and elsewhere for permanent positions?

With the exception of Irish, it should possible to recruit internationally if needed. We should be able to assess the demand for teachers in each given subject, replace substitute and part time work with full time permanent positions on a salary good enough to compete internationally.

lightspeed

evolving_doors wrote: »

Pick any number between 0 and 22 inclusive.



No but given the nature of primary it wouldn't be so much an 'hours' game. Primary teachers have the same class all day/week/year so if a teacher is out then you're with that class. If a secondary teacher is out then it depends what subjects they teach an when. But to generalise; subwork is a bit more stable in primary than scondary.



Yes



Yes. Some do give the CID. Some just let the person go and rejig the job spec and readvertise so technically it's not the 'same' position. That's if they are trying to be evasive to save face. Other's just blatantly re-advertise the exact same post they let someone go from. After 2 years they must re-advertise the position if a CID is in the offering so they can always claim the new hire is more suitable to the school etc. Then again other schools can create a position and offer someone a CID from the get-go (no 2 year wait).




No.

Retired teachers being a 'problem' is trotted out every year to muddy the waters, career breaks is the new water muddying spin machine.

It doesnt seem to me that any of the unions have been effective at communicating the issues current situation to Joe public.

I doubt most people are aware that newly qualified teachers are not in full time positions or permanent positions and that there are 5 types of non permanent positions which again is madness to me.

Cookie_g

I know of a school that has SNAs teaching math, business and CSPE classes on pretty much full time hours.

evolving_doors

lightspeed wrote: »

How are foreign schools in places like the middle east doing it?

Guaranteed ongoing full time employment.
Decent pay.
No tax.
Some places include accommodation.
Career path if you stay around.
Flights home.
Bonuses if you stay.

lightspeed wrote: »

Isnt it the case that quite a few irish teachers at secondary level have and continue to flock abroad to ME and elsewhere for permanent positions?

Yes

lightspeed wrote: »

With the exception of Irish, it should possible to recruit internationally if needed. We should be able to assess the demand for teachers in each given subject, replace substitute and part time work with full time permanent positions on a salary good enough to compete internationally.

If they started to pay International School wages AND perks, every student filling out the CAO would be putting down teaching. Look what happened during the recession, every mammy was telling their kid to go into teaching as it was a secure pensionable job.... the reality didn't quite pan out for some.
Similarly they would have to bring every other teacher currently teaching in line with that pay ... That's about 50000 odd teachers. Dont forget were still in an emergency, fempi hasn't gone away you know :pac:

evolving_doors

Cookie_g wrote: »

I know of a school that has SNAs teaching math, business and CSPE classes on pretty much full time hours.

Same here. The sna has a subject related degree though!

Cookie_g

evolving_doors wrote: »

Same here. The sna has a subject related degree though!

Yep. One has a science degree so she's good for the maths part but crazy that they have to do it instead of attending to their kids.

evolving_doors

Brutal is talking about quotas for universities now :pac: Hes about 6 years to late. Keep up Richard.

Article in Irtish Times today, basically Dr. Looney from DCU was telling him to do his research first before yabbering on.

Dr Anne Looney, head of Dublin City University’s faculty of education, said the idea of quotas for particular subjects ignored the fact that additional science and maths graduates were not applying to teach in the first place.

“In England, they set quotas and are left with thousands of unfilled places in teacher education programmes,” she said.

“They added incentives, through fee reduction and starting bonuses, and still have a far greater shortage than we do, leading to the aggressive recruitment of Ireland’s highly regarded teaching graduates to fill their gaps.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/universities-resist-quotas-on-teacher-training-courses-1.3388563?mode=amp

r93kaey5p2izun

lightspeed wrote: »

How are foreign schools in places like the middle east doing it?

Schools abroad seem to have less problem filling a teacher's timetable (and often with just one subject not two). That mostly seems to be down to much larger schools and shorter teaching contact hours. Based on those I know who have worked in England, there's also lots of people teaching outside their subject area to fill up timetables - even more so than was ever the case here.

byhookorbycrook

lightspeed wrote: »

So lets say for example I was a newly qualified teacher as of tomorrow. What kind of hours would I likely work each week?

Am I correct in saying that at primary level it would be a full week each week for a number of months?

Can't speak for secondary. Primary might be a few hours per week for SEN shared positions, subbing, presuming you could travel at the drop of a hat to the other end of the country- anything from a day , to a few days to a maternity leave.

Noveight

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I'm loath to say it but also the calibre of teacher coming out, can (on occasion) be appalling. Some of those teachers are very unlikely to ever get their own hours tbh.

The PME has dropped its entry requirements significantly in the past 2-3 years, as have the CAO points for the undergrad courses which feed in to the PME.

I know for certain that there are people passing through with neither a great interest in teaching nor a solid ability in their subjects.

thefasteriwalk

Noveight wrote: »

The PME has dropped its entry requirements significantly in the past 2-3 years, as have the CAO points for the undergrad courses which feed in to the PME.

I know for certain that there are people passing through with neither a great interest in teaching nor a solid ability in their subjects.

I've noticed the drop in points for Arts alright. I think it was 470 or so when I entered in 2003. What's happened regarding entry requirements for PME?

A sorry state of affirs.

Icsics

Noveight wrote: »

The PME has dropped its entry requirements significantly in the past 2-3 years, as have the CAO points for the undergrad courses which feed in to the PME.

I know for certain that there are people passing through with neither a great interest in teaching nor a solid ability in their subjects.

Agree 100% we have a lot of PMEs, focus seems to be on their ‘folders’ & not on whether they can actually teach

r93kaey5p2izun

We also take a lot of teaching practice students, from 5 different colleges and from different courses within those colleges. We haven't had any new or growing concerns about their teacher training. There have been some serious issues around subject knowledge in some cases though.

lightspeed

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Can't speak for secondary. Primary might be a few hours per week for SEN shared positions, subbing, presuming you could travel at the drop of a hat to the other end of the country- anything from a day , to a few days to a maternity leave.

would it not be the case that if you secured any position in primary it would be likely full time even if it was few weeks or months at a time?

Do primary school students sometimes have more than one primary teacher then if positions can be shared?

It be good if one of the teachers unions or some reliable body could provide the average hours per week newly qualified teachers are working?

Is it likely to improve in the next few years as economy picks up along with population growth?

happywithlife

lightspeed wrote: »

would it not be the case that if you secured any position in primary it would be likely full time even if it was few weeks or months at a time?

Do primary school students sometimes have more than one primary teacher then if positions can be shared?

It be good if one of the teachers unions or some reliable body could provide the average hours per week newly qualified teachers are working?

Is it likely to improve in the next few years as economy picks up along with population growth?

Not primary sector but my understanding from my children in primary school is you could have two teachers jobsharing either on a week on/week off basis or a 2/3 day week. Lots of SEN or resource teachers (know that s not the correct term anymore) may not be on full hours or may be shared around between schools
So this may account for some part time subbing hours at primary

Mardy Bum

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

We also take a lot of teaching practice students, from 5 different colleges and from different courses within those colleges. We haven't had any new or growing concerns about their teacher training. There have been some serious issues around subject knowledge in some cases though.

I've seen 6th year students studying ordinary level maths and English and still getting into the primary teaching courses. This is worrying.

evolving_doors

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I've seen 6th year students studying ordinary level maths and English and still getting into the primary teaching courses. This is worrying.

I'm not too enamored about going the subject hierarchy route, we'll end up chasing our tails (like the recent STEM vs' Irish in Primary schools nonsense 'debate'). Maybe they're good at teaching what needs to be taught with good teaching methods, or good at something else like languages or PE.

Get a professor of maths from Trinners in to teach a 3rd class and he mightn't fare as well as the lad who can make a good connection with kids and have a bit of fun learning about multiplication (that's not LC OL standard by any means).

Although you would want someone with a good inclination towards education... so if the demand is high enough and the points go high enough then you will get that.

How do you create higher demand though?
I reckon the 'nagging mammy get a public sector job for yourself' factor is wearing off.

Noveight

evolving_doors wrote: »

How do you create higher demand though?
I reckon the 'nagging mammy get a public sector job for yourself' factor is wearing off.

First step is doing something about the bloody PME. I'm delighted to hear the numbers applying have dropped dramatically because maybe having it printed black and white on paper might wake up Bruton et al - though I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

evolving_doors

Noveight wrote: »

First step is doing something about the bloody PME. I'm delighted to hear the numbers applying have dropped dramatically because maybe having it printed black and white on paper might wake up Bruton et al - though I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

Maybe they'll do very little in the hope that it will yo-yo back again with more media reports.

I think the long term play by the dept. mandarins is to make it over the 2025 hump without increasing tteacher numbers. Once the population bubble decreases then the pressure will be off.
The last thing they want is an oversupply of permanent teachers having to be redeployed with a falling student population.
Could there be any merit in this assumption ?
They are a bit of a 'do nothing' government after all . e.g. housing + health

evolving_doors

evolving_doors wrote: »

Maybe they'll do very little in the hope that it will yo-yo back again with more media reports.

I think the long term play by the dept. mandarins is to make it over the 2025 hump without increasing tteacher numbers. Once the population bubble decreases then the pressure will be off.
The last thing they want is an oversupply of permanent teachers having to be redeployed with a falling student population.
Could there be any merit in this assumption ?
They are a bit of a 'do nothing' government after all . e.g. housing + health

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

Interesting, in the same post, you blame the government - and not the management in health.

The government has given the HSE the biggest budget ever. Do you not think to question if that is being spent correctly?

r93kaey5p2izun

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

The government is trying to hire and failing - that's the point of the thread. It's amusing that you think adding the risk of redundancy to teacher's terms and conditions should be considered in the context of a massive recruitment and retention crisis in the profession.

SligoBrewer

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now?

They stop hiring and redeploy already. Not every teaching contract is permanent.
Stop making excuses for bad practices.

markodaly

salonfire wrote: »

The government has given the HSE the biggest budget ever. Do you not think to question if that is being spent correctly?

That is a good point. The government or should I say the tax payer spends €10 Billion a year on education. That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

rainbowtrout

markodaly wrote: »

That is a good point. The government or should I say the tax payer spends €10 Billion a year on education. That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

Oh FFS. Part of the education budget is paying teacher wages. What do you propose be done? Stop paying teachers?:rolleyes:

SligoBrewer

markodaly wrote: »

That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

Check the PISA results Mark like a good lad. x

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

Interesting, in the same post, you blame the government - and not the management in health.

The government has given the HSE the biggest budget ever. Do you not think to question if that is being spent correctly?

I do.

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

That is a good point. The government or should I say the tax payer spends €10 Billion a year on education. That is 16.6% of the entire budget but do we get good outcomes?

You should really do some research on measuring outcomes in the education field if you're going to start on about grades.
Nice distraction btw.
But (back to the topic) if you think that a teacher shortage is a good 'outcome' for students sitting in a class with no subject teacher then Maybe we should cut the budget a bit more!

TheDriver

I find people love giving out about education, everyone is an expert because they went to school themselves etc. Yet no one gives it socks to their actual child's teacher. I wonder why....

markodaly

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh FFS. Part of the education budget is paying teacher wages. What do you propose be done? Stop paying teachers?:rolleyes:

I never mentioned anything about teachers wages, I mentioned outcomes for the amount of money we spent on a nation on teachers.

markodaly

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Check the PISA results Mark like a good lad. x

Yes, good jump in Reading but back in Science. That does not answer the question though, are we getting good outcomes?

markodaly

evolving_doors wrote: »

But (back to the topic) if you think that a teacher shortage is a good 'outcome' for students sitting in a class with no subject teacher then Maybe we should cut the budget a bit more!

Where did I mention that a teacher shortage is a good outcome. I swear that people don't actually read what I write, but project their own bias and respond.

I already gave my own 2c on why there is a teacher shortage and ways to combat it, one being the teacher council copping on and making it easier to attract foreign qualified teachers. Teaching had been a closed shop but that will have to change if you want the shortage to be solved long term.

There are other factors too but I don't think you or anyone really want to discuss that but if you want, I will.

byhookorbycrook

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe if they government were allowed make teachers redundant when population falls, they might not be as reluctant to hire now.

That's what panels are for. And that's presuming the teacher in whose school the post is being lost has panel rights, which most NQTs don't.
You need to educate yourself on facts before you post and make claims that are totally false.

keoclassic

Teaching was never closed shop. I became a teacher because I wanted to, I studied, went to college, graduated, got a job, was never out of work because I travelled the length and breadth of the country to keep myself in it. I then left teaching because I got so sick of the bull**** involved in schools, the nepotism that exists, the do as your told not what's right way of doing things, the clicks, the way that you are treated if not in the correct click, the unfair promotions.....and a whole lot more........hard to get into certain jobs , yes......closed shop,no. Go to Dublin and some schools change teachers so often, you will be nearly guaranteed a job.

byhookorbycrook

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, good jump in Reading but back in Science. That does not answer the question though, are we getting good outcomes?

So payment by results then?Only teachers in schools where results go up get paid?So, what about DEIS schools?Children with SEN?

markodaly

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So payment by results then?Only teachers in schools where results go up get paid?So, what about DEIS schools?Children with SEN?

I see my point has gone over your head.

It is a simple question, do we get good outcomes for the amount of money we spend. We know that we don't in the Health sector, so do we far better in the education sector.

markodaly

keoclassic wrote: »

Teaching was never closed shop. I became a teacher because I wanted to, I studied, went to college, graduated, got a job, was never out of work because I travelled the length and breadth of the country to keep myself in it. I then left teaching because I got so sick of the bull**** involved in schools, the nepotism that exists, the do as your told not what's right way of doing things, the clicks, the way that you are treated if not in the correct click, the unfair promotions.....and a whole lot more........hard to get into certain jobs , yes......closed shop,no. Go to Dublin and some schools change teachers so often, you will be nearly guaranteed a job.

Erm, you sure? :pac:

feedthegoat

Back on topic...we are just surviving thru the use of M Eds as sub's on a daily basis. They are delighted as it helps pay their fees and most of them are enthusiastic and up to it.

evolving_doors

feedthegoat wrote: »

Back on topic...we are just surviving thru the use of M Eds as sub's on a daily basis. They are delighted as it helps pay their fees and most of them are enthusiastic and up to it.

Well said:pac:

As a matter of interest how much of everyone's S&S quota is used up. I think most of our staff are reaching 'peak hours'. Is there a special allocation for subs after?

rainbowtrout

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well said:pac:

As a matter of interest how much of everyone's S&S quota is used up. I think most of our staff are reaching 'peak hours'. Is there a special allocation for subs after?

I was close to mine (allowing for the break/lunch slots I was timetabled for, for the rest of the year) and then I broke my leg last week so I guess I won't hit my S&S quota. My class probably won't have a physics teacher either.

feedthegoat

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well said:pac:

As a matter of interest how much of everyone's S&S quota is used up. I think most of our staff are reaching 'peak hours'. Is there a special allocation for subs after?

No specific allocation for sub's but if teachers have opted out in your school then the school will get an equivalent allocation to employ others to carry out S and S.

jaffa20

When i thought about becoming a teacher 8 or 9 years ago, there was too many teachers but now there is a shortage... What is going on? I considered it recently but then i saw that the hdip has now being replaced by a 2 year course!! Also, reading this thread would put anyone off becoming a teacher.