Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

Gaia Mother Earth · 26-01-2018 10:40pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why should childless teachers be discriminated against? People take career breaks for all sorts of reasons, not just to mind children.

Because it applies to me

rainbowtrout · 26-01-2018 11:48pm

Gaia Mother Earth wrote: »

Because it applies to me

Charming :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Terri26 · 27-01-2018 1:26am

With regards to the shortage with Home Economics teachers apparently every year but especially the last few years a large number from each class didn't even try to teach and went straight into food science and similar type jobs.

spurious · 27-01-2018 1:27am

amacca wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how much has SS saved...something like 60million?

I would love to know the answer to that.

Sonny678 · 27-01-2018 1:45am

Sorry this might sound like a stupid question. But what exactly are supply panels. Bruton said on the news said they were expensive and were tried before and it did not work. I dont believe him. What are they exactly?. And is there any sort of panels in secondary teaching.

Finally are they taking secondary teachers in primary schools now. Could you make a career in primary teaching even though you are only qualified secondary teacher.
But my main question is what are supply panels. How do they work?

thegreatescape · 27-01-2018 10:47am

Terri26 wrote: »

With regards to the shortage with Home Economics teachers apparently every year but especially the last few years a large number from each class didn't even try to teach and went straight into food science and similar type jobs.

That's true! I'm open to correction but I'm nearly sure that in 2014 almost half of the graduates went into industry.

TL17 · 27-01-2018 12:33pm

Sonny678 wrote:

Finally are they taking secondary teachers in primary schools now. Could you make a career in primary teaching even though you are only qualified secondary teacher. But my main question is what are supply panels. How do they work?

Sonny678 wrote:

Sorry this might sound like a stupid question. But what exactly are supply panels. Bruton said on the news said they were expensive and were tried before and it did not work. I dont believe him. What are they exactly?. And is there any sort of panels in secondary teaching.

A supply panel could be where a graduate was employed by a cluster of schools. They would then be available to the schools in that cluster. It may only be short term work but for the teacher they would have security.

mirrorwall14 · 27-01-2018 12:41pm

TL17 wrote: »

A supply panel could be where a graduate was employed by a cluster of schools. They would then be available to the schools in that cluster. It may only be short term work but for the teacher they would have security.

This is one solution that is urgently needed in Dublin and the surrounding regions. Subs can not afford to pay rent without some guarantee of minimal income

strawberrie · 27-01-2018 1:16pm

If supply panels were set up properly with proper contracts for those on them they would work. Esp at primary level. E.g teacher employed on temp basis to cover short term absences in a certain geographical area. Blocks of days to fortnight's work that schools could book with them using a simple system. Give proper travel allowance too. Subs will always be needed in the system to cover for training, sickness, principal release days etc and this would mean schools, children and sub teachers all benefit.

Postgrad10 · 27-01-2018 1:21pm

TL17 wrote: »

Sonny678 wrote:

Finally are they taking secondary teachers in primary schools now. Could you make a career in primary teaching even though you are only qualified secondary teacher. But my main question is what are supply panels. How do they work?

Sonny678 wrote:

Sorry this might sound like a stupid question. But what exactly are supply panels. Bruton said on the news said they were expensive and were tried before and it did not work. I dont believe him. What are they exactly?. And is there any sort of panels in secondary teaching.

Sonny678 wrote:

Sorry this might sound like a stupid question. But what exactly are supply panels. Bruton said on the news said they were expensive and were tried before and it did not work. I dont believe him. What are they exactly?. And is there any sort of panels in secondary teaching.

Sonny678 wrote:

Sorry this might sound like a stupid question. But what exactly are supply panels. Bruton said on the news said they were expensive and were tried before and it did not work. I dont believe him. What are they exactly?. And is there any sort of panels in secondary teaching.

A supply panel could be where a graduate was employed by a cluster of schools. They would then be available to the schools in that cluster. It may only be short term work but for the teacher they would have security.

Is that similar to an ETB sub panel where they sign up to a panel and might be called but still have no guarantee of being called? Or is it a guaranteed minimum of work? I know subs who belong to particular ETB sub panels but some have never lead to even a days work.

TL17 · 27-01-2018 3:04pm

would be guaranteed work. Same as any temporary position. There would always be work to cover. Teachers going to courses, principal release, and short term illnesses etc

pandoraj09 · 28-01-2018 3:04pm

I was speaking to a LC student yesterday who said her class has had 24 Home Ec classes without a teacher as one could not be found. To be honest I never realised things were that bad. Also I can't get anyone to sub for me, and neither can others, to go out to do the Orals. I'd say the sub shortage may result in the Orals taking place during the holidays. Even if we did have this panel of subs spoken about in the news, would there actually be teachers to fill it?

storyman1 · 28-01-2018 4:43pm

Bit off topic, but im a lc student thinking of doing primary teaching. Can someone tell me what other countries you are qualified to teach in after graduation?

Millem · 28-01-2018 5:26pm

I am a home ec teacher on maternity leave. No sub has been found for me. Pandora it could of been one of my 6th years!!!
It will only get worse....if my memory serves me correct there will be no home ec graduates this summer from st Angela’s as the course was changed to 5 years.

We have already been told by our BOM that job share and career breaks won’t be approved if there are recruitment difficulties.

r93kaey5p2izun · 28-01-2018 6:57pm

https://dublingazette.com/digital-edition/dublin-gazette-west-edition-11th-january-2018/

Front page of the West Dublin Gazette I came across when lighting the fire this week. A story about someone dropping out of school because 6/7 classes per day were "free classes" due to lack of teachers. Of course you have to take such articles with a truckload of salt given it's a free local rag that would print just about anything (and they use a clickbait misleading headline), and that the girl in question is clearly looking for a bit of publicity for her modelling ambitions. But this article could just as easily be about my school. The school's response is interesting in that they don't even try to deny there's a problem, they state that they are struggling to recruit but no classes are ever left unsupervised (my principal could not say the same if we were to end up in the same scenario). The Department's response predictably is that the school was given adequate allocation so managing teacher deployment and the timetable is entirely a matter for the individual school.

One thing I don't understand, but am not really surprised at, is the lack of parent's voices on this issue. Bruton couldn't give a toss about teacher's opinions or about how schools are coping, but he would listen to parents - particularly middle class FG voting parents. Parents are sitting back and allowing this issue to play out while their children lose out. They have already sat back for years while their child had 4/5 different teachers for a junior cycle subject as casualisation saw huge turnover in teachers without job security. Now they're sitting back while classes aren't taught at all. The NPC is supporting the TUI lunchtime protest on Thursday on the grounds that pay inequality is the root of this issue of teacher shortages. Too little too late I think.

2xj3hplqgsbkym · 28-01-2018 7:57pm

It's really annoying me how the media spin on this is that the shortage is due to money greedy teachers taking career breaks to go to Dubai . I would love to see actual figures to support this. Of course a few young teachers go there for a couple of years, but very few of them have permanent jobs.

In my experience the majority of career breaks are for child rearing, particularly here in Dublin when housing and childcare is so expensive .

Also I have noticed a lot of early retirements from teachers fed up and drained by croke park hours and ridiculous inservices on 301 ways to use a post it in your class and not actually teach.

2xj3hplqgsbkym · 28-01-2018 8:00pm

Also , all the home economics teachers that graduated last year are employed, in teaching , all in Ireland except 1, and not poached by industry as rumours suggest!
I'm sure alot of the jobs are maternity leaves / career breaks, especially as it is a predominantly female job.

rainbowtrout · 28-01-2018 8:31pm

Athena Cool Rambler wrote: »

It's really annoying me how the media spin on this is that the shortage is due to money greedy teachers taking career breaks to go to Dubai . I would love to see actual figures to support this. Of course a few young teachers go there for a couple of years, but very few of them have permanent jobs.

In my experience the majority of career breaks are for child rearing, particularly here in Dublin when housing and childcare is so expensive .

This. And it had mentioned that 'many young teachers' go to Dubai etc. Most young teachers haven't worked up enough years to be able to qualify for a career break. My gut feeling is that that majority of teachers that have headed to the middle east went straight from college, or because they couldn't get work a few years ago, not on career breaks.

Icsics · 28-01-2018 8:52pm

The media will believe whatever spin the Dept puts out. We are short an Irish teacher because he couldn't live on 9hrs & left, who could blame him. Refusing career breaks won't solve this problem. At least if a teacher is covering a career break they usually have decent hours.

Gaia Mother Earth · 28-01-2018 10:04pm

Icsics wrote: »

The media will believe whatever spin the Dept puts out. We are short an Irish teacher because he couldn't live on 9hrs & left, who could blame him. Refusing career breaks won't solve this problem. At least if a teacher is covering a career break they usually have decent hours.

I think the Career break issue is more at primary level.

From the primary teachers I know who are on Career break, they do have permanent jobs. It's a perk of the job. I'd be on one myself if I had a permanent job or at least be on a job share.

man_no_plan · 28-01-2018 10:32pm

It was always open to a board to refuse a career break if there was difficulty recruiting a replacement.

There's nothing to see here apart from the department pretending to try to address the issue.

There a reason a few teachers I know who are on career break having spent less time in their schools than they have on the career break, that can be hard to swallow for a replacement who can't get the CID because their job is tied to the permanent teacher.

That said, it's probably not that big an issue country wide. And that's the major problem on this, every school is different, some are flying it with no issues, others are to the pin of their collar, it's not affecting enough parents in the right areas to be a political problem.

I don't buy the s/s argument as a reason for jobs drying up. It has been on the scene for about 15 years. It's as simplistic to say that's the problem as it is to say that ending career breaks is the solution.

Seannew1 · 28-01-2018 10:36pm

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

https://dublingazette.com/digital-edition/dublin-gazette-west-edition-11th-january-2018/

Front page of the West Dublin Gazette I came across when lighting the fire this week. A story about someone dropping out of school because 6/7 classes per day were "free classes" due to lack of teachers. Of course you have to take such articles with a truckload of salt given it's a free local rag that would print just about anything (and they use a clickbait misleading headline), and that the girl in question is clearly looking for a bit of publicity for her modelling ambitions. But this article could just as easily be about my school. The school's response is interesting in that they don't even try to deny there's a problem, they state that they are struggling to recruit but no classes are ever left unsupervised (my principal could not say the same if we were to end up in the same scenario). The Department's response predictably is that the school was given adequate allocation so managing teacher deployment and the timetable is entirely a matter for the individual school.

One thing I don't understand, but am not really surprised at, is the lack of parent's voices on this issue. Bruton couldn't give a toss about teacher's opinions or about how schools are coping, but he would listen to parents - particularly middle class FG voting parents. Parents are sitting back and allowing this issue to play out while their children lose out. They have already sat back for years while their child had 4/5 different teachers for a junior cycle subject as casualisation saw huge turnover in teachers without job security. Now they're sitting back while classes aren't taught at all. The NPC is supporting the TUI lunchtime protest on Thursday on the grounds that pay inequality is the root of this issue of teacher shortages. Too little too late I think.

If principals were to start ringing up parents to come into school and collect their child and to bring them home for the day, there would be outrage from parents. Only then, parents would realise the vital role of teachers and then maybe something would be done. As it stands, it seems principals are reluctant to put their foot out of line and to make an "example".

byhookorbycrook · 28-01-2018 11:27pm

Gaia Mother Earth wrote: »

I think the Career break issue is more at primary level.

From the primary teachers I know who are on Career break, they do have permanent jobs. It's a perk of the job. I'd be on one myself if I had a permanent job or at least be on a job share.

There are two teachers from ours on CB, both seconded to the DES. We have others in for the year, delighted to get the full year of work. The issue is the shorter term things, like maternity, illness- short or longer term and where no sub is even allowed like CPD.

evolving_doors · 29-01-2018 1:20am

It's very much a confluence of new changes. Not old ones.

S&S taking slack previously covered by a sub or a part time teacher ready to go.

This september 40mins was taken off a lot of teacher timetables. School of 33 teachers and that's around a full post! That'll put pressure on different areas.

Large secondment to Junior cert.

And of course lack of money and respect.

I now see how they tried to stave it off by cutting most junior cert subject hours... for 400hrs mindfulness which can be taught by anyone (let's face it, if you're asked to come up with a course you'll could do it).

SligoBrewer · 29-01-2018 1:33am

man_no_plan wrote: »

There a reason a few teachers I know who are on career break having spent less time in their schools than they have on the career break, that can be hard to swallow for a replacement who can't get the CID because their job is tied to the permanent teacher.

That ended with the Ward report in 2014.

man_no_plan · 29-01-2018 8:18am

SligoBrewer wrote: »

That ended with the Ward report in 2014.

Of course, but the replacement is liable for redeployment when the original teacher returns. So while the job is CID in name the location of the job is not guaranteed.

If you're in that position you could be easily tempted away by your 'own hoirs'.

It will be interesting to see if schools start appointing on a permanent basis in shortage arras to get the jump on each other.

SligoBrewer · 29-01-2018 6:48pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Of course, but the replacement is liable for redeployment when the original teacher returns. So while the job is CID in name the location of the job is not guaranteed.
If you're in that position you could be easily tempted away by your 'own hoirs'.

You can't expect everything to be fair. That Ward report was huge.

man_no_plan wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if schools start appointing on a permanent basis in shortage arras to get the jump on each other.

It's already started.

Terri26 · 31-01-2018 12:55am

Athena Cool Rambler wrote:

Also , all the home economics teachers that graduated last year are employed, in teaching , all in Ireland except 1, and not poached by industry as rumours suggest! I'm sure alot of the jobs are maternity leaves / career breaks, especially as it is a predominantly female job.

Are you sure? How do you know? Not trying to be smart genuinely interested.

happywithlife · 31-01-2018 1:07am

Terri26 wrote: »

Are you sure? How do you know? Not trying to be smart genuinely interested.

I heard head of home e.c reference this before and she said media were confusing the BEd teacher training course with a different Bachelor (science ?) Degree which DOES steer people into industry

2xj3hplqgsbkym · 31-01-2018 6:07pm

Terri26 wrote: »

Are you sure? How do you know? Not trying to be smart genuinely interested.

There is an NQT home ec teacher in my school this year ( full hours, likely to get CID as it was from a retirement) . She had her graduation before Christmas and told me this after meeting up with all her classmates. I had believed the 'snapped up by industry' line too but apparently not.

Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

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