Teacher shortage - how are schools coping?

mirrorwall14

KWETB have issued a letter saying no career breaks or Job shares for next year except in exceptional circumstances or where the school can show they can fill the position. A fair few going to be affected in my place

2xj3hplqgsbkym

happywithlife wrote: »

I heard head of home e.c reference this before and she said media were confusing the BEd teacher training course with a different Bachelor (science ?) Degree which DOES steer people into industry

That could be it
http://www.stangelas.nuigalway.ie/departments/course_details.php?id=AS051&&ver=en

man_no_plan

We could see compulsory transfers in ETB's shortly too. It's a long time since that happened in out ETB.

rainbowtrout

man_no_plan wrote: »

We could see compulsory transfers in ETB's shortly too. It's a long time since that happened in out ETB.

Why would there be compulsory transfers?

dhaughton99

I was talking to a teacher from a 800+ Deis school who was telling me that the 5 teachers who left in June have been replaced with just 1 and a sub. All school trips are cancelled and after school services are restricted.

TheDriver

There is a circular issued that permits those on career break to do subbing, this year only.

Teacher0101

I'm glad this apparent 'shortage' has occurred. Reading Brenda Power's typical right wing **** that doesn't cover the facts properly. Newstalk are exactly the same. Richard Bruton also comes out with similar lines like 'NQTs are well paid starting on 30k or whatever a year'. What NQTs are on FULL HOURS? How is this so hard to get across? You do not get decent wages for YEARS and you cannot rent in the greater Dublin area. The TUI/ASTI need to unite as one union and EFFECTIVELY get this simple message across, which we pay them €14 every two weeks to piss around with.

So now to be a Science teacher, you do a 4 year undergrad and a 12k MA for maybe a few hours? **** that. I'm glad it's crumbling for them.

I got a CID after six years and I also spent 5 years adding an additional subject. I already had Geography, CSPE and History and I added English

I would not recommend any friend or relative to pursue a career in teaching. I'd recommend they take up a trade and start earning earlier in life rather than doing pointless MAs to keep other people with pointless doctorates to facilitate the courses.

Any mature teacher that has joined our school from industry, really has found it hard and can't hack it.

Lunchtime protest for equality in wages is pointless as well. Missing your lunch break to shuffle around with placards? Just go all out strike for a week and stop messing about. Who cares about public goodwill? I'd go without wages for a week and properly and effectively highlight our reasons for doing so if it worked. The Guards got what they wanted.

Tired of the education system in this country. Teaching eleven years and apart from getting on with nice kids, the system is a total money making racket and the quality of teacher seems to reduce with each new intake.

fade out

I’m really annoyed at the possible new career break bans . I graduated in 2012 on a lower wage than those before me and have worked every year since waiting to get CID. Started saving up because I always wanted to go travelling properly for a year. And now it looks like they will issue a ban across the sector. I’ll be gutted if I don’t get it. I honestly can’t see myself having the same enthusiasm about the job this time next year. I just feel like we are getting screwed over constantly. I relative was thinking about becoming a teacher and he was met with a fairly swift response from me.

SligoBrewer

fade out wrote: »

I’m really annoyed at the possible new career break bans . I graduated in 2012 on a lower wage than those before me and have worked every year since waiting to get CID. Started saving up because I always wanted to go travelling properly for a year. And now it looks like they will issue a ban across the sector. I’ll be gutted if I don’t get it. I honestly can’t see myself having the same enthusiasm about the job this time next year. I just feel like we are getting screwed over constantly. I relative was thinking about becoming a teacher and he was met with a fairly swift response from me.

Just leave.

Don't let the Government hold you back from being happy.

TL17

fade out wrote:

I’m really annoyed at the possible new career break bans . I graduated in 2012 on a lower wage than those before me and have worked every year since waiting to get CID. Started saving up because I always wanted to go travelling properly for a year. And now it looks like they will issue a ban across the sector. I’ll be gutted if I don’t get it. I honestly can’t see myself having the same enthusiasm about the job this time next year. I just feel like we are getting screwed over constantly. I relative was thinking about becoming a teacher and he was met with a fairly swift response from me.

fade out wrote:

I’m really annoyed at the possible new career break bans . I graduated in 2012 on a lower wage than those before me and have worked every year since waiting to get CID. Started saving up because I always wanted to go travelling properly for a year. And now it looks like they will issue a ban across the sector. I’ll be gutted if I don’t get it. I honestly can’t see myself having the same enthusiasm about the job this time next year. I just feel like we are getting screwed over constantly. I relative was thinking about becoming a teacher and he was met with a fairly swift response from me.

Still up to your Bord. If they can fill your position and they should be ok in most situations then you be ok. Just tell them how important it is for you and see how it goes

evolving_doors

Teacher0101 wrote: »

I'm glad this apparent 'shortage' has occurred. Reading Brenda Power's typical right wing **** that doesn't cover the facts properly. Newstalk are exactly the same. Richard Bruton also comes out with similar lines like 'NQTs are well paid starting on 30k or whatever a year'. What NQTs are on FULL HOURS? How is this so hard to get across? You do not get decent wages for YEARS and you cannot rent in the greater Dublin area. The TUI/ASTI need to unite as one union and EFFECTIVELY get this simple message across, which we pay them €14 every two weeks to piss around with.

So now to be a Science teacher, you do a 4 year undergrad and a 12k MA for maybe a few hours? **** that. I'm glad it's crumbling for them.

I got a CID after six years and I also spent 5 years adding an additional subject. I already had Geography, CSPE and History and I added English

I would not recommend any friend or relative to pursue a career in teaching. I'd recommend they take up a trade and start earning earlier in life rather than doing pointless MAs to keep other people with pointless doctorates to facilitate the courses.

Any mature teacher that has joined our school from industry, really has found it hard and can't hack it.

Lunchtime protest for equality in wages is pointless as well. Missing your lunch break to shuffle around with placards? Just go all out strike for a week and stop messing about. Who cares about public goodwill? I'd go without wages for a week and properly and effectively highlight our reasons for doing so if it worked. The Guards got what they wanted.

Tired of the education system in this country. Teaching eleven years and apart from getting on with nice kids, the system is a total money making racket and the quality of teacher seems to reduce with each new intake.

Previously I thought the lunchtime protest thing was a farce.
I think it does serve a more subtle purpose though. It's not necessairily just about highlighting anything to the public, it's about highlighting to that staff room who's in the union and who's not.

SligoBrewer

TL17 wrote: »

Still up to your Bord. If they can fill your position and they should be ok in most situations then you be ok. Just tell them how important it is for you and see how it goes

Not if they work for KWETB.

Teacher0101

'Previously I thought the lunchtime protest thing was a farce.
I think it does serve a more subtle purpose though. It's not necessairily just about highlighting anything to the public, it's about highlighting to that staff room who's in the union and who's not.'

That's not meant to be the point of the strike. Most staff wouldn't care who is in the union in my school. All people with CIDs are, most that aren't on full hours/CID haven't joined the union, as they have little enough money as it is.
Lunchtime protesting is just pointless. I didn't join a union until I had a CID. People who can afford it are paying the union for equal pay.

Subtle purpose? We pay the union a lot of money and a lunchtime protest is the best they can come up with as a 'subtle gesture'. Ridiculous. Aiming for the bottom column of page 12 of the 'Irish Times' in reporting on this.

How about pulling out of state exams, taking a week off. The Guards pretty much said there would be no essential services if they all called in sick, so I don't see why teachers can't get a bit more militant. And so what if public opinion would be against us? The public is always against public sector workers looking for their rights anyway.

There is nowhere near the same level as respect for the teaching profession in Ireland that lasted up to the early 1990s. Most parents feel they are better educated (due to higher paying jobs) and can hold you to account for the smallest thing. This is noticeable in parents challenging suspensions - which have to go through a Board of Management review and are generally of an outrageous nature which would have warranted expulsion a few years ago. Continually bowing down to the minister and everyone WILL be working until they're seventy. Bruton doesn't even come out with correct facts and statements when he is talking about the issue.

People are ill-informed by the media and would give poor ol Joe Duffy an earful if something hinting at effective action as I've outlined above was to happen.

rainbowtrout

I'd agree, it isn't to highlight who is in the union, we already know who is in the union on staff. We have two unions, and when we have the occasional meeting for ballots etc, it's fairly obvious who isn't a member. It's not like they keep it a secret.

r93kaey5p2izun

There was fantastic support from the public today during the protest. And from our students who are sick of how the teacher shortage is affecting them. The point of the protest may not be to highlight who isn't in the union but it certainly had that effect in my staffroom today.

fade out

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Not if they work for KWETB.

I don’t thankfully but am worried others will follow suit.

man_no_plan

fade out wrote: »

I don’t thankfully but am worried others will follow suit.

I'm not sure anything has changed really on this front, it was always up to the CEO to approve the leave on the recommendation of the board of management.

The only change now is that it might be difficult to get a replacement. It has happened in the past that people didn't get to take career breaks or job shares for various reasons and the world didn't end. If the minister didn't come about this there'd be no fuss and people still might not be approved for career breaks.

The people who are in the first year of a break and feel compelled to come back might just resign and there's no gain then anyway. But as I said before if you are longer out of a job than you were in it it's probably getting near time to come back or resign, this will just make the decision come a year earlier.

I mentioned compulsory transfers earlier also as I'm aware of some schools who are falling over certain teachers who are maybe teaching resource etc, and a small bit of their main subject. If there is a shortage in one school and an oversupply in another and no possibility of recruiting a new teacher an ETB may well decide to transfer. This is more drastic action than refusing a career break or a job share. It was just a thought, I don't know how likely it is but it is possible and used to be commonplace.

markodaly

Emmett Stocky Puma wrote: »

on the grounds that pay inequality is the root of this issue of teacher shortages. Too little too late I think.

I will probably be attacked for this but this I would disagree with, it may be an issue but there are wider forces at play here. When Unions talk about pay, the eyes of the general public glaze over as they have heard the some talk for decades.

I would say a wider issue is the lack of full time work and the perception valid or not is that getting a permanent teaching gig is a closed shop to many.
The two year MEd also is a core issue. What were the union reactions to this change by the way, as I could not find anything from the TUI or ASTI about these changes.

markodaly

fade out wrote: »

I’m really annoyed at the possible new career break bans . I graduated in 2012 on a lower wage than those before me and have worked every year since waiting to get CID. Started saving up because I always wanted to go travelling properly for a year. And now it looks like they will issue a ban across the sector. I’ll be gutted if I don’t get it. I honestly can’t see myself having the same enthusiasm about the job this time next year. I just feel like we are getting screwed over constantly. I relative was thinking about becoming a teacher and he was met with a fairly swift response from me.

As others have said, just go.

Remember a ban on career breaks doesn't mean you are therefore an indentured servant. You can also quit the role and go abroad and do your travelling or work in the ME or OZ/NZ elsewhere.

That is what most people have to do anyway, they just quit their jobs and go without a second thought.

man_no_plan

markodaly wrote: »

I will probably be attacked for this but this I would disagree with, it may be an issue but there are wider forces at play here. When Unions talk about pay, the eyes of the general public glaze over as they have heard the some talk for decades.

I would say a wider issue is the lack of full time work and the perception valid or not is that getting a permanent teaching gig is a closed shop to many.
The two year MEd also is a core issue. What were the union reactions to this change by the way, as I could not find anything from the TUI or ASTI about these changes.

What could they have done realistically, it's very easy to blame them for everything?

The govt now know that this is a disaster, so does the TC. UL didn't change to a 5yr degree for teaching while Angela's did, arguably there was no need as now DCU are going to offer B.Ed in various subjects which will only take 4 years and not cost an extra 12k.

This will make teaching accessible again but makes a laugh of those who spent all the money on a master's.

We need to realise that the enemy is not the unions or not the pre 2011 teachers. It's the government plain and simple.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd agree, it isn't to highlight who is in the union, we already know who is in the union on staff. We have two unions, and when we have the occasional meeting for ballots etc, it's fairly obvious who isn't a member. It's not like they keep it a secret.

From my perspective half our staff started in the last 5 or so years, so it's not so obvious who joined.
Also union meetings are rarely fully attended (S&S, Lunchtime Meetings, Extra Curricular etc.).
Following on from the last lunchtime protest we had a good few teachers looking a bit sheepish as the rest of us went out. A few joined after that (they had been talking about it but just needed a little push!)which were badly needed. If the balance tips towards a non-union staff compliment then I think solidarity,bargaining and a reasonable chance of staff voice has had it's day in a school.

That's just my 2 cent. If you have a healthy majority of union members and everyone knows where their allegiances lie, then my point above doesn't really apply. So yes lunchtime protests are a joke then.

markodaly

man_no_plan wrote: »

What could they have done realistically, it's very easy to blame them for everything?

The govt now know that this is a disaster, so does the TC. UL didn't change to a 5yr degree for teaching while Angela's did, arguably there was no need as now DCU are going to offer B.Ed in various subjects which will only take 4 years and not cost an extra 12k.

This will make teaching accessible again but makes a laugh of those who spent all the money on a master's.

We need to realise that the enemy is not the unions or not the pre 2011 teachers. It's the government plain and simple.

I don't have a binary outlook where either the government is 100% to blame or the Unions are 100% to blame, as often its a bit of both.

I just asked about the change to the post-grand and wonder why the Unions didn't bother to even comment on it, when as you say, its going to cost would be teachers 12k just to become a teacher in the first place. A chunk of change alright yet they focus entirely on unequal pay, something that they agreed to in the first place back in the day.

If they want to focus on teaching shortage they should be lobbying for a reduction in the fees for the postgrad and shorten it to a one year post grad like before.

man_no_plan

markodaly wrote: »

12k just to become a teacher in the first place. A chunk of change alright yet they focus entirely on unequal pay, something that they agreed to in the first place back in the day.

The bit about the unions agreeing to cut new entrants pay is not at all accurate. There was a cut to existing member pay which we have a one day strike over and then there was a further decision to have a new pay scale for any new entrant.

At the time this was announced there was nobody employed on the new rates and action couldn't be taken on behalf of anyone, although there was a lot of talk at the time about the damage that would be done etc. This has come to pass, alas.

I don't agree with the 2 year masters at all but, again, the unions have no role in deciding the entrance requirements into the profession and it is not something we could take action over, apart from, maybe, a motion at congress or whatever for all the good it would do.

And also for what it's worth, we had 8 new teachers this year, 3 of them NQT's, and each and every one of them has a 22 hour timetable.

Teacher0101

People seems to have short memories here, Hibernia et al brought in too many teachers onto the market. It was impossible to get hours for years. There are still way too many History and English teachers for example. The two year MA version of the HDip was (in part I'm sure out of its cost alone) trying to cut down the numbers entering teaching.

They need to cap the numbers entering from the humanities (History / English etc) so that they can actually get a job. Why do a two year MA and not get a job? Gardai and nurses train and there is a job guaranteed for them.

It will go the way of other countries in terms of attracting Maths/Home Ec teachers (and other subjects in demand). Either the unions finally develop a backbone and demand a fair wage for new entrants - who in their right mind would do a Physics degree, and then settle for a 6 hour a week contract somewhere when industry beckons?

Or the more likely scenario, where there will be extra money/'Hello' money given to graduates in the subjects that they can't fill positions. Of course, this will only divide staffrooms and cause additional rancour. The unions need to merge and properly represent teachers. Most teachers I know are in it 'just in case' a child makes an accusation against them, and the union will have their back. The system is a mess. I can't wait to see the ****storm in a few years when we have kids sitting a 2 hr JC English exam, going through a proper long English LC and then onto Universities, who will finally complain about standards.

Wexford96

Can a teacher live on 17-22 hours per week's pay. By 'live' I mean pay mortgage, run a car, pay general bills etc. If its not enough, then it's no surprise the teachers without full-time contracts go to work in Saudi, Dubai etc. What is the sub supposed to do from June to Sep?

evolving_doors

markodaly wrote: »

I don't have a binary outlook where either the government is 100% to blame or the Unions are 100% to blame, as often its a bit of both.

I just asked about the change to the post-grand and wonder why the Unions didn't bother to even comment on it, when as you say, its going to cost would be teachers 12k just to become a teacher in the first place. A chunk of change alright yet they focus entirely on unequal pay, something that they agreed to in the first place back in the day.

If they want to focus on teaching shortage they should be lobbying for a reduction in the fees for the postgrad and shorten it to a one year post grad like before.

At this stage it's about pay.

No tinkering around with the PME would encourage anyone in Dublin to hang around. Unless they're living at home with the parents.

man_no_plan

evolving_doors wrote: »

At this stage it's about pay.

No tinkering around with the PME would encourage anyone in Dublin to hang around. Unless they're living at home with the parents.

Would an extra 5k a year on the pay scale here stop people from going to Dubai? A 50k salary there is like a 100k salary here with tax etc.

Noveight

Efforts continue to try and plug the holes created by shortages.

School principals have proposed moving the Leaving Cert oral exams to the Easter holiday period to ease acute pressure on recruiting examiners for key subjects.

evolving_doors

Noveight wrote: »

Efforts continue to try and plug the holes created by shortages.

School principals have proposed moving the Leaving Cert oral exams to the Easter holiday period to ease acute pressure on recruiting examiners for key subjects.

Which means the class teachers would have to come in.

judeboy101

evolving_doors wrote: »

Noveight wrote: »

Efforts continue to try and plug the holes created by shortages.

School principals have proposed moving the Leaving Cert oral exams to the Easter holiday period to ease acute pressure on recruiting examiners for key subjects.

Which means the class teachers would have to come in.

First step in erosion of hols, next step LC practical can't take up class contact time